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Old 01-19-2005, 04:46 AM   #1
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Default 1.18+ cells -vs- orion's 1.19= cells

what is orion doing different from other company to acheive this voltage of 1.19+ , because their the only company with those high numbers
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Old 01-19-2005, 04:58 AM   #2
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Different matching system, they use the lavco matcher i believe.
Generally speaking the top priced cells from any company will perform very similar to one another, but the drivers from each camp will tell you their cells are the best.
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Old 01-19-2005, 05:16 AM   #3
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orion does not use lavco, they used too, but since lavco couldnt be updated anymore they have gone to CE turbo matchers.

Reedy also puts out a lot of 1.19 cells of late I have noticed.

Someone once told me the numbers for voltage was based on racing, aka ave. voltage based on a 5 min race, where run time is the total runtime of the cell.

Reguardless of how it is done you can not ever compare 2 different manufacturers numbers. I can tell you orion 1.19 are really really fast =)
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Old 01-19-2005, 05:23 AM   #4
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Just from every racer I have talked to is that Orion's cells are true numbers, not saying anyone elses aren;t but I have three of the Team packs and the numbers are still right there after two months. I have used another major name Matcher and there numbers fall off almost right away. Just my two pennies,
Yes Orion's cells are expensive but if the numbers stay for a long period of time like three times as long as a number of other matchers, arn't they worth the extra coin since you don;t have to buy another pack right away. I plan on using my three packs for the rest of the season. I have found that they hold there numbers the best by far. But I haven;t tryed everyone's cell......YET.
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Old 01-19-2005, 05:56 AM   #5
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I just ordered 6 packs of batteries yesterday for a friend of mine from a guy I have done buisness with for 10 years he told me up front that they were cut off on the cycle at like 360, he mentioned orion and reedy I personally dont care I look at what a pack does when I cycle it and how it performs on the track,I think that early cut off deal is something world class did years ago,just my 2 cents worth...
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Old 01-19-2005, 06:02 AM   #6
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reedy comes right out and tells you, REAL TIME, thats for the actual 5 minute race. or the numbers are at 300 seconds. soooo,, a if your talking about 300sec 1.19 battery compared to a 420sec 18 or 17, i would think that the 18 would be better, besides your not good enough to tell the difference anyway. well aleast i know i'm not. the problem is, i think anyway, almost everyone fudges one way or another. just buy one pack from a few different matchers, and then restock with the one you like best. same with motor numbers, builder a dynos at 4.5 volts, builder b dynos at 6 and so on. i think roar or who ever otta make a rule, all motors dynoed at 6 volts. just
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Old 01-19-2005, 06:30 AM   #7
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Trust me, 1.195 Orion battery packs are as good as anything out there. I have several of these packs in the 1.195-1.198 range and they are hotter than my 1.185's SMC's. These are great packs. I can tell you that they do use Turbo Matchers as stated above. The do not end their dischage early as Reedy does with the Real Time batteries. Orion actually dischages their batteries longer than most matchers as they cut off their discharges at 0.85 volts (I think pretty much all matchers use a .90 volt cut off). The difference with Orion is that they do not use a straight linear dischage. Their dischage curve is constantly changing...for example, it might start off at 30 amps for a period of time and then it drops down to 15 amps, then back up to 30 amps then down to 20 amps. This more closely matches race conditions than a straight 30 amp linear discharge curve.
The result of this is a label that reads a slighter higher run time and slightly higher voltages than a cell that was matched using a straight linear 30 amp discharge.
With my experience with Orion cells, other matchers cells and using my Turbo Matcher, the numbers on Orion packs are closer to other matchers than most people think. You have anywhere from a 0.003-0.005 gap (that means that a 1.183-1.185 Orion pack will be perform the same as a 1.180-1.183 pack matched by SMC).
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:34 AM   #8
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So I assume that your 1.195 Orion pack would translate into 1.192 for SMC according to your formula. Since we don't consistently see anything over 1.19 I can only conclude that The Orion numbers are seriously skewed compared to the industry standard (SMC, Trinity, Fusion, Pro-Match, Fukiyama, etc). Take that pack and cycle it, then cycle your SMC the exact same way and I would bet you will be surprised. I think more than one person can vouch for this. I am in no way degrading anyone's cells, however it is important to compare apples to apples.
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:51 AM   #9
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I don't know a great deal about how the matches do there thing. But I have some experience with cycling my cells. The best performance gain I get is using a friends tekin dis-350 unit. I use the stepping discharge mode which constantly ramps up and down between 15-45amps. Mayb be treating them this way from the start, orion system of matching produces better cells. I haven't tried any myself but I bet the ppl who have put them down the most haven't tried any either.
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Old 01-19-2005, 07:51 AM   #10
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I use Orion/Peak packs a lot and will tell you that Rick and Oscar put out top notch stuff. I have some 1.195's and 1.192's from Orion and they are definately killer stuff. Now if only I didn't suck as a driver, maybe I'd do better because I know I can't blame the equipment. It is true they use what they call "Modified CE Turbomatchers", but what that means I have no idea. I just know that when I build a pack I cycle it thru my Turbo 35 and the numbers are pretty accurate. And that's impressive since a pack as a whole will normally not reflect the numbers on an individual cell because you're adding in solder joints and other cells which adds variables. If you're looking for new packs, you'd be very happy with Orion/Peak Cells.
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:06 AM   #11
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LOL...I love these posts. I am not trying to start an argument here. But yes, according to my Turbo Matcher, taking brand new Team Orion packs versus brand new SMC packs, the number are definately closer than people like yourself would think! Maybe I didn't write my last post as clearly as I could have but I ment that i typically find a 0.005 varience in Orion cells versus the competition. Which more plainly stated means that a 1.180 Orion pack is as good as a 1.175 to 1.178 SMC pack.

I am not sponsored by Orion or in no way baised towards them. I do like them however for the simple fact that is it very easy, in my location to get very, very good packs from them. In fact i use cells from a number of manufactures (FUKU, Orion, SMC/Fanotm).

There are many people on here that that feel the same way as you and that is fine. The problem is that most have no facts to back up their statments. Jack Rimer, I can only assume that you make your statement wihtout ever having tried a Team Orion pack. Most people think that the numbers are incorrect and that is even better because that leaves more great packs for me and their other users.

While the discharge cure that Orion uses may, when used alone, work in their favor to have artifically inflated numbers, the simple fact that they discharge their cells to a lower voltage than all matchers will have the opposite effect causing lower voltage readings than those that use a 0.90 voltage cutoff...help to create a balancing effect.

All I am really saying is give thier packs a chance before you criticize. Their numbers are closer more realistic than you might think.

But I can see how you can say their numbers are extremely false because, at least on a "Pro" level (a level where only the best will do), Team Orion batteries have been performing very poorly lately
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
I didn't write my last post as clearly as I could have but I ment that i typically find a 0.005 varience in Orion cells versus the competition. Which more plainly stated means that a 1.180 Orion pack is as good as a 1.175 to 1.178 SMC pack.
The SMC comparison isn't the best since they're now matching @ 35 amps. But in comparison to other matchers @ 30 amps (Fusion, Reedy, Hurricane, Hefty Cells) that .005 variance is pretty acurate. So even with that figured in, a 1.190 is right there with every other matcher's 1.185's....and I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't seen those numbers out of many other matchers.
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Rimer
Take that pack and cycle it, then cycle your SMC the exact same way and I would bet you will be surprised. I think more than one person can vouch for this. I am in no way degrading anyone's cells, however it is important to compare apples to apples.
Good to see that after several years away from the matching business, some things never change.

Like Jack says, find a company that you like, and stick to it. If the packs run fast in the car, then to hell with what number is on the label.

You're racing cars, not Turbomatchers.
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Old 01-19-2005, 08:43 AM   #14
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I am not criticizing anyone. I am simply stating that you cannot compare the numbers of these two companies directly. That doesn't make them right or wrong in the way they do it, it just means don't think your lower number pack from one of the matchers I mentioned is not as good as a 1.195 Orion pack. Numbers sell. Period. But the consumer needs to know that trying to compare these numbers is not as straightforward as simply looking at the label on a cell. By the way, you would be surprised what I have tested.
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Old 01-19-2005, 09:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by RC Driver Gary
The SMC comparison isn't the best since they're now matching @ 35 amps. But in comparison to other matchers @ 30 amps (Fusion, Reedy, Hurricane, Hefty Cells) that .005 variance is pretty acurate. So even with that figured in, a 1.190 is right there with every other matcher's 1.185's....and I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't seen those numbers out of many other matchers.
I forgot to take that into account that they match at 35 amps. I did mean the 30 amp packs because that's all I currently have from SMC. If I am not mistaken, don't they still match at 30 amps too?
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