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Old 05-03-2012, 12:58 PM   #76
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Terry hit it right on the head. I had the discussion about WGt bodies with three different manufactures at this years Snowbirds. All three know me quite well by name. One said alot of what Terry said.One said he was working on one body and another said sometime at the end of summer. The other said we're working on it.As I said I know them very well and I take them at there word. So there will be some new bodies soon.
As for bashing my driveway takes me blowing off the surface and I'm ready to practice.I can tell most of the time if it works in my driveway it will work at the track.
There is usually one body that works better than anyone else's. I've seen that happen over the 30+ years I've been racing.Do you want it to look good or handle-your choice.
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:39 PM   #77
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Its always been that way with everything in this hobby.

Bodies that look good never handle well.

Bodies that handle good never look all that great.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:28 PM   #78
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There was a time when the rules required scale appearing cars. A manufacturer presenting a body for approval had to supply pictures of the prototype to demonstrate the scaleness of the shell. The TOJ, the Osella, two of the most popular designs were actually quite accurate reproductions. If the rules were to go back to that standard, the cars would look good again, and I think more people would be interested in racing in this class.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:59 PM   #79
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To say that appearance is why the class isn't bigger is just bull. At least around here, there are maybe 4 guys that really want to run VTA or RCGT and that's as scale as they get these days. Meanwhile TC (which is even uglier than a Sophia to me), 1/12th (anyone up for racing a doorstop?), 1/8th onroad (don't even try to mention scale appearance), 1/8th truggy (please) are all doing well. If appearance was all that important, we would all be racing Tamiya cars.

Want more people racing WGT? Let them drive my car for 10 laps and they will come off the stand grinning ear to ear, just like me. That is the most fun to drive car I have ever run and I've driven just about everything. Well ok, there was this one time with a dirt late model that was a lot of fun too but that's about it.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:53 PM   #80
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Want more people racing WGT? Let them drive my car for 10 laps and they will come off the stand grinning ear to ear, just like me. That is the most fun to drive car I have ever run and I've driven just about everything.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:07 PM   #81
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I drove mine tonight. After completely changing it, it was better, but needs more thought. Gearing is the first thing. It is way, way over geared.
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Old 05-03-2012, 11:52 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by LonnyJ1950 View Post
There was a time when the rules required scale appearing cars. A manufacturer presenting a body for approval had to supply pictures of the prototype to demonstrate the scaleness of the shell. The TOJ, the Osella, two of the most popular designs were actually quite accurate reproductions. If the rules were to go back to that standard, the cars would look good again, and I think more people would be interested in racing in this class.
I recall ROAR being very strict as to scale realism back in the day
Frank Killam had a lot to do with that

Would really like to see that kind of commitment again
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:57 AM   #83
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These cars/pro10 and 1/12 pancars are performance-based, not just scale looking.

Please leave them as they are.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:40 PM   #84
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This just demonstrates the disconnect between RC racing and fans of full-size sports car racing. Those fans aren't interested in racing unrealistic, unnattractive (to them), cookie-cutter cars and World GT racers are most intersted in what is the best handling body, regardless of scale realism.
There is a world of difference between fans of full size cars wanting a scale model of their favourites, and an r/c racer. Full size fans buy r/c cars and run then in their back yard or on the street, they don't go racing. When I started racing in the 80s each week at the club talk would usually turn to the previous weekends full size motorsports, these days I would say about 10% of the racers at my club have any interest in motorsports today, there is no real connection.

We race r/c cars because of the actual competition, not because it's a scale replica of full size races. If it is to replicate full size racing we would be running Tamiya TT01s with the kit 540 motors on tracks 3 feet wide, rallying like they do in Czechoslovakia or running short course only with basic Slash trucks.

VTA is the only scale class that's taken off in any way, but a lot of that is down to a dedicated group championing it and the shells being popular amongst bashers so ensuring there is a big selection to choose from. It alos helps that the limits on the electrics in the cars means aerodynamics don't make that much difference to the cars compared to other classes, if VTA used faster motors then body handling would mean it would end up with one or two bodies being used everywhere, like all other classes.
But you have got to think why the class is popular, if they changed the rules so the two options were the VTA bodies with the same electrics and tyres as normal tourers or the controlled VTA electrics and tyres with modern bodies, which would be more popular amongst most of the racers. I'm sure plenty would go for the restricted electrics and tyres over sticking with vintage bodies.

It doesn't matter how scale a car is, if it means faster lap times then the racer is going to pick that option. After all the whole objective to racing is to try and beat the other racers on the track, not to have the most accurate body on your car, otherwise you aren't actually racing.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:12 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by LonnyJ1950 View Post
There was a time when the rules required scale appearing cars. A manufacturer presenting a body for approval had to supply pictures of the prototype to demonstrate the scaleness of the shell. The TOJ, the Osella, two of the most popular designs were actually quite accurate reproductions. If the rules were to go back to that standard, the cars would look good again, and I think more people would be interested in racing in this class.
That's how we approve bodies for 1/12th over here in Europe. They are submitted to our 1/12th committee with proof that they bear a resemblance to the full size equivalent, if they don't look anything like it they don't get approved which meant not many 1/12th bodies were allowed over here. Protoform only brought out the AMR because none of their bodies would have been legal for racing in Europe when we introduced rules to prevent the likes of the Speed 12 being one step away from a flat wedge with some windows drawn on it.
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:44 PM   #86
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What is the AMR supposed to look like ?
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:52 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
We race r/c cars because of the actual competition, not because it's a scale replica of full size races.

It doesn't matter how scale a car is, if it means faster lap times then the racer is going to pick that option. After all the whole objective to racing is to try and beat the other racers on the track, not to have the most accurate body on your car, otherwise you aren't actually racing.
Whatever you're racing, you have to follow the rules. When the rules required more scale bodies, that's what we raced. Andy made a Mercedes that was quite accurate and worked very well. He also made Jaguars and Nissans (my personal favorite). REDBULLFIXX made a super Nissan that looked great and handled very well. A more scale Audi R18 might not work quite as well as an AMR but if everyone ran one the competition would be just as intense.

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That's how we approve bodies for 1/12th over here in Europe. They are submitted to our 1/12th committee with proof that they bear a resemblance to the full size equivalent, if they don't look anything like it they don't get approved which meant not many 1/12th bodies were allowed over here. Protoform only brought out the AMR because none of their bodies would have been legal for racing in Europe when we introduced rules to prevent the likes of the Speed 12 being one step away from a flat wedge with some windows drawn on it.
The front of the AMR is pretty nice but to get clearance for our motors and gain down force, the rears are ridiculous.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:01 PM   #88
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A body manufacturers point of view.

There are many more bodies available for this class, most of them are from HPI. Here in the UK we run our own body list that has 30 bodies listed including the HPI 911 and Lamborghini bodies. Unfortunately they are designed as scale bodies so fairly useless on the track compared to the Sophia even though they look better.

Now look at the class from the body manufacturers point of view. The vast majority of WGT racers run on carpet, using spec tyres. This means almost everyone wants the same aerodynamic balance. Now if you produce a body that works well it will work well almost everywhere, so almost everyone would want to use it, then you are on to a profitable product.

Dale Epp got it right first time with the Sophia, so much that it's used just about everywhere, especially outside the US where it is the only body that's readily available. So if Protoform have already got the WGT body market sewn up, why should they spend money developing a new body that will just take sales from the Sophia as Protoform won't sell many extra bodies.
They would sell a few of the new bodies at first, as people try them out or people think they need both types for different tracks, but after that initial rush Protoform will end up selling exactly the same number of bodies as people replace worn ones, just in two different styles instead of one. WorldGT isn't big enough as a class for Protoform to recover the development costs in that one early rush of bodies, so no point Dale spending his time creating a new WGT shell when he could be making new touring car bodies that will sell in much greater numbers. The only way you would get Protoform to make a new body is if another manufacturer came in and created a body that out performed the Sophia, so taking sales away from Protoform.

Parma and Mcallister have created shells, they should have already created the best bodies they can but they still can't perform as well as the Sophia. Considering they have much lower sales compared to the Sophia is it worth their time and money creating another body that won't increase their sales, just because a small number of people might want it. Remember, they might have been started by enthusiasts but these days these are all businesses so there isn't any point in spending their time on something that isn't going to make them any more money when they can spend their time

If I was a body manufacturer WGT isn't a class I would concentrate on. While I could create a GT/ALMS body it would be aimed first at touring car chassis with little consideration for handling in WGT as that would sell considerably more then if WGT racers wanted to use them they could, but I wouldn't expect then to beat the Sophia.
I'm not sure I fully agree...on the first point yes there are a lot of potential WGT bodies out there if you include the 200 TC bodies by companies like HPI. Cars like the Saleen S7 and such. But those bodies are molded to fit over a much much taller tire than what WGT runs and as a result always looks just a bit wrong sitting on top of a WGT car.

As for the Sophia vs other bodies...I often wonder how much people say one body is better than another just because it is perceived to be and that transcends to them thinking it feels better on the track. In the 3 years I ran WGT at the IIC I ran the Parma DB9 the first two years and the Sophia the 3rd year and honestly I couldn't tell the difference. Maybe this year I'll bring one of each and do some back to back testing. But really the difference was so small that my lack of ability in driving must have negated any advantage the Sophia had over the DB9.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:09 PM   #89
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What is the AMR supposed to look like ?
It is supposed to look like this:

http://www.astonmartin.com/racing/series/le-mans-series

And while I agree it doesn't quite make the mark...if you consider the rear wing being blended into the body and take into account the rear pod and front suspension getting in the way of more true body lines...then they could really only get marginally closer in scale appearance. I really miss having the wing as a separate piece from the body.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:15 PM   #90
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Part of the problem with making GT bodies for WGT is that while real GT cars have a fair variety of wheel bases, widths and heights...WGT cars are fairly rigid in those 3 dimensions...so you can end up with some rather distorted bodies.

Personally I feel that DTP cars have taken a great turn for the better in making the cars look better...and the great thing about them are no matter who the manufacturer are the dimensions have to be within a fairly rigid set as well so making RC bodies that look good and meet the dimensions is much easier.
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