Why are we Dumbing down our hobby??
01-15-2005, 01:26 PM
#256
Originally posted by speedxl
I've had my nomex undies and expected it can't help all the west coast and northern rejects that you guys dont want end up here! Funny thing people visit florida and end up moving here must be bad! I'll leave terminator jokes out but aint he a forigner cleaning up cali!
Dont forget the smogg mask for all the crapp in the air!
If your are from anywhere I mentioned it was a joke!! Dont take offense I know there a few sensitive people here!
I've had my nomex undies and expected it can't help all the west coast and northern rejects that you guys dont want end up here! Funny thing people visit florida and end up moving here must be bad! I'll leave terminator jokes out but aint he a forigner cleaning up cali!
Dont forget the smogg mask for all the crapp in the air!
If your are from anywhere I mentioned it was a joke!! Dont take offense I know there a few sensitive people here!
I should add that he would have never had a chance to win (steal) the office had he run in a primary here...the hard right GOP establishment here would have gutted him like a fish.
Where are all the socially moderate, fiscally conservative Republicans these days? It's a sad day when the most maistream Republican in recent history is Nixon...LOL
01-15-2005, 01:30 PM
#257
I've been reading this now and then. Dumbing down the hobby. Is that RTR's or brushless technology doing that? How bout one touch setup speed controls? Hehe.
What's it really matter anyway. The fun of racing is competition, winning, losing, just being in the race. Yes we spend lots of money on it, but you don't have to if you don't want to. Maybe to win, but you have to be a good driver to win also.
RTR's are good because they bring people into the hobby. They may never race, but how many people really do? Brushless motors are just the next step in performance and less maintenance. Do you really wish to have a carburator in your brand new daily driver car? Doubt it. Technology will progress no matter what, our choice to use it or not for now.
A fast car doesn't necessarily win. Or are people really mad about lapped traffic being able to race them in the straight. I race nitro myself. Slowly getting into electric too though. Right now doing some electric carpet oval. There are some super fast guys there. People not as fast want to say it's the batteries, or this or that. Maybe to a point. But all it really comes down to is go look at the lap times and the consistency.
Dumbing down the hobby doesn't really pertain to racing I don't think, unless all the smart people leave.
What's it really matter anyway. The fun of racing is competition, winning, losing, just being in the race. Yes we spend lots of money on it, but you don't have to if you don't want to. Maybe to win, but you have to be a good driver to win also.
RTR's are good because they bring people into the hobby. They may never race, but how many people really do? Brushless motors are just the next step in performance and less maintenance. Do you really wish to have a carburator in your brand new daily driver car? Doubt it. Technology will progress no matter what, our choice to use it or not for now.
A fast car doesn't necessarily win. Or are people really mad about lapped traffic being able to race them in the straight. I race nitro myself. Slowly getting into electric too though. Right now doing some electric carpet oval. There are some super fast guys there. People not as fast want to say it's the batteries, or this or that. Maybe to a point. But all it really comes down to is go look at the lap times and the consistency.
Dumbing down the hobby doesn't really pertain to racing I don't think, unless all the smart people leave.
01-15-2005, 01:35 PM
#258
Turbo joe see its cool when adults can joke with each other. Thing about it I see you are into full scale auto racing , as I did for about five years in the scca racing a vw gti in ItA. Seems to me real gear heads have a more open mind to jokes and handle it better.
In your experiance with full scale racing how many guys do you see show up to the track with over kill car haulers turbo diesel crew cabbs and a street bracket camaro running mid 12's, and complain racing is expensive! Dont they look at what they own!
Same goes for R/C racers complaining its to expensive lets make it easier. They still end up buying 10 of everything to get the best one.
In your experiance with full scale racing how many guys do you see show up to the track with over kill car haulers turbo diesel crew cabbs and a street bracket camaro running mid 12's, and complain racing is expensive! Dont they look at what they own!
Same goes for R/C racers complaining its to expensive lets make it easier. They still end up buying 10 of everything to get the best one.
01-15-2005, 02:17 PM
#259
I like to race. I like to have good races. The first time I was able to run side-by-side (or nose-to-tail) with ANYBODY was the most fun I'd ever had...it still doesn't happen much for me.
You need to have rules in order to keep things reasonably fair, but the rules shouldn't be made in such a way that it keeps new people (like me) from participating and being able to sorta be "in the hunt".
I started racing, then said "f it" for a while because the guy who ran the local track was (still is) a dick to new guys and thinks it's all about the big dogs. People get shellshock when you tell them what it's going to take - in terms of money and time - to even be able to occasionally get that brief moment of side-by-side thrill. I'm quite used to wasting lots of money racing...most people have more common sense than I do.
Getting a car to work well is tough...learning to drive it well is tough...learning which of the two is causing you to spin out is even tougher...especially at first. Add to that the tedium, cost and complexity of maintaining these "modern"
motors, and you have a recipe for a dying sport.
RTR's get people to the track and get them in the hunt chassis-wise, batteries are pretty cheap nowadays (plenty of novice guys at SoCal run 2400 stickpacks)...the motor deal has bitten me plenty of times and made me want to quit.
Give me a Mabuchi, a brushless...whatever...I don't want to be the fastest guy at the track...I just want the chance to have a race with someone -- whether that's for last place or first place. I really don't care, i like the chase and I really don't want to spend half my life f'in around with a toy car just to get the chance every once in a while.
If that's "dumbing down the sport", then so be it. Maybe you hardcore R/C guys are just too smart for the rest of us. Maybe we're really the smart ones who realize this is just a hobby and not a profession.
I think to some extent it gets to be like one of those "Doom" games or something where people get so deep into it that they forget that there's life outside of the R/C scene.
For those who have professional aspirations...go for it, but please don't look down on me because I want to do it just for fun, with a minimum of hassle. After all, us guys that just want to have fun end up paying for all the guys who are sponsored.
You need to have rules in order to keep things reasonably fair, but the rules shouldn't be made in such a way that it keeps new people (like me) from participating and being able to sorta be "in the hunt".
I started racing, then said "f it" for a while because the guy who ran the local track was (still is) a dick to new guys and thinks it's all about the big dogs. People get shellshock when you tell them what it's going to take - in terms of money and time - to even be able to occasionally get that brief moment of side-by-side thrill. I'm quite used to wasting lots of money racing...most people have more common sense than I do.
Getting a car to work well is tough...learning to drive it well is tough...learning which of the two is causing you to spin out is even tougher...especially at first. Add to that the tedium, cost and complexity of maintaining these "modern"
motors, and you have a recipe for a dying sport.RTR's get people to the track and get them in the hunt chassis-wise, batteries are pretty cheap nowadays (plenty of novice guys at SoCal run 2400 stickpacks)...the motor deal has bitten me plenty of times and made me want to quit.
Give me a Mabuchi, a brushless...whatever...I don't want to be the fastest guy at the track...I just want the chance to have a race with someone -- whether that's for last place or first place. I really don't care, i like the chase and I really don't want to spend half my life f'in around with a toy car just to get the chance every once in a while.
If that's "dumbing down the sport", then so be it. Maybe you hardcore R/C guys are just too smart for the rest of us. Maybe we're really the smart ones who realize this is just a hobby and not a profession.
I think to some extent it gets to be like one of those "Doom" games or something where people get so deep into it that they forget that there's life outside of the R/C scene.
For those who have professional aspirations...go for it, but please don't look down on me because I want to do it just for fun, with a minimum of hassle. After all, us guys that just want to have fun end up paying for all the guys who are sponsored.
Last edited by Turbo Joe; 01-15-2005 at 02:50 PM.
01-15-2005, 02:39 PM
#260
Torbo Joe
Werd
01-15-2005, 03:07 PM
#261
some guys dont look at it as a hobby or a proffession the guys that are serious about it look at it as going to play competitive softball or any recreational sport. Has to do with the competitive nature in man. Some learn to just deal with the level they play in and some are jealous of those that can play at the higher end.
We are not looking down on those that cant. What upsets us is when they want to inforce rules to regulate the ones that can do it at a hire level. There are classes for that and people dont use them because for like the 100th time being said their egos dont let them.
Turbo joe out of curiousity if you do it for fun like so many others on here. Why! dont you guys run t-spec?? Are they to slow, not cool enough? Just asking this to see the response from everyone.
We are not looking down on those that cant. What upsets us is when they want to inforce rules to regulate the ones that can do it at a hire level. There are classes for that and people dont use them because for like the 100th time being said their egos dont let them.
Turbo joe out of curiousity if you do it for fun like so many others on here. Why! dont you guys run t-spec?? Are they to slow, not cool enough? Just asking this to see the response from everyone.
01-15-2005, 03:46 PM
#262
Tech Fanatic
Originally posted by Peter Busch
That is total bs.
That is total bs.
01-15-2005, 04:03 PM
#263
What do we consider rich these days???? Is there a monetary value? Where does low class stop and middle class start? Middle class stop and upper class start?
01-15-2005, 04:24 PM
#265
I don't think that the proposition of 4 cells or brushless motors are an effort to "dumb down" the hobby. I personally see them as an effort to help tame the escalating costs of racing and create more competion and growth, something that is good for EVERYONE from the hardcore racer to RTR basher. In ANY form of racing, whether it be RC, Nascar, or Tractor pulls people will always look for an edge and this inherently leads to more spending. At some point and time, things start to get out of hand and measures need to be taken to regain control, this is true in any form of racing. Left unchecked, racing will inevitably destroy itself (Can Am ring any bells?). Even F1 is going from 3 liter v10s to 2.4liter v8s, are they happy about it..not really, but it's the same for everyone and want to bet the cars will be somehow faster in a few years?
As far as those that feel if you can't afford it, then don't race.....You are completely right. You might not care, but your buddy across the table might and when he says "I've had enough" there will be one less guy on the grid, is this good for you? Can this hobby/sport afford to lose participants on any level? If you actually think about it, it seems kinda foolish really to use a wallet to beat someone on the track, though this will of course happen (I am NOT saying that money alone wins races, of course not. But all things being equal, the one with more $$$ ususally comes out on top) Think about it, if someone gains performance by buying or tuning their (insert whatever part you'd like here) and everyone else does the same....what has been accomplished? Nothing but a few less bucks in your pocket.
Change is good, it keeps things interesting. Those who do the work will of course be rewarded, the cream always rises to the top. If the rules are the same for everyone, what does it matter? Above all, KEEP AN OPEN MIND!! Being close minded will crush this hobby/sport.
As far as those that feel if you can't afford it, then don't race.....You are completely right. You might not care, but your buddy across the table might and when he says "I've had enough" there will be one less guy on the grid, is this good for you? Can this hobby/sport afford to lose participants on any level? If you actually think about it, it seems kinda foolish really to use a wallet to beat someone on the track, though this will of course happen (I am NOT saying that money alone wins races, of course not. But all things being equal, the one with more $$$ ususally comes out on top) Think about it, if someone gains performance by buying or tuning their (insert whatever part you'd like here) and everyone else does the same....what has been accomplished? Nothing but a few less bucks in your pocket.
Change is good, it keeps things interesting. Those who do the work will of course be rewarded, the cream always rises to the top. If the rules are the same for everyone, what does it matter? Above all, KEEP AN OPEN MIND!! Being close minded will crush this hobby/sport.
01-15-2005, 05:36 PM
#266
Originally posted by speedxl
Turbo joe out of curiousity if you do it for fun like so many others on here. Why! dont you guys run t-spec?? Are they to slow, not cool enough? Just asking this to see the response from everyone.
Turbo joe out of curiousity if you do it for fun like so many others on here. Why! dont you guys run t-spec?? Are they to slow, not cool enough? Just asking this to see the response from everyone.
I know and trust my second-hand Evo III...it'll take a hit and the parts are cheap. I'm the king of last year's cool stuff.
One of the greatest classes I've run lately was the OC Circuit mabuchi class. Run whatever car you want, gear it how you want...6 cells and a silver can motor.
It's 75% driver, 25% batteries. Eeyan and Hebiki were battling the whole race and their times were only a little slower than sportsman stock. I won the "B" and even took out a couple sportsman guys along the way.
Is that "dumb" or "fun"?
01-15-2005, 06:46 PM
#267
The vibe I get from this thread overall is kinda like this. There's a small, but vocal group of guys who've been messing with R/C cars for a long time...and gotten quite good at it, evidently.
They feel insulted that anyone would dare meddle with the "sport" as they see it -- in a way that would lower the difficulty level for those who have either just started or who want to participate in a somewhat-less-than-lifestyle-changing level.
The only problem is:
(whisper)
...YOU GUYS ARE PRETTY LONELY. AND IT'S NOT GETTING ANY BETTER.
(/whisper)
Something needs to change...and it's not "getting on TV".
I see new people race novice at SoCal all the time...and never see them again.
If it wasn't for Natedog taking over the local p/l race for a while and making a concerted effort to reach out to us noobs...I would have already bailed on it.
I do it because the guys I race with are great (the TAOB crowd) and I like to see them race each other door to door...but I'm not going to pretend that I'll ever put forth the effort to win the trip to Japan...but I go to SoCal every Tuesday and shell out my $40 or so for entry and sh*t.
I respectfully submit that the "sport" (hobby) really needs more people like ME and fewer "wanna-bee Kinwalds" with bad attitudes. I get to see him drive every Tuesday...you guys aren't gonna get there. Give up now while you still have a chance to have a life.
They feel insulted that anyone would dare meddle with the "sport" as they see it -- in a way that would lower the difficulty level for those who have either just started or who want to participate in a somewhat-less-than-lifestyle-changing level.
The only problem is:
(whisper)
...YOU GUYS ARE PRETTY LONELY. AND IT'S NOT GETTING ANY BETTER.
(/whisper)
Something needs to change...and it's not "getting on TV".
I see new people race novice at SoCal all the time...and never see them again.
If it wasn't for Natedog taking over the local p/l race for a while and making a concerted effort to reach out to us noobs...I would have already bailed on it.
I do it because the guys I race with are great (the TAOB crowd) and I like to see them race each other door to door...but I'm not going to pretend that I'll ever put forth the effort to win the trip to Japan...but I go to SoCal every Tuesday and shell out my $40 or so for entry and sh*t.
I respectfully submit that the "sport" (hobby) really needs more people like ME and fewer "wanna-bee Kinwalds" with bad attitudes. I get to see him drive every Tuesday...you guys aren't gonna get there. Give up now while you still have a chance to have a life.
01-15-2005, 07:25 PM
#268
peace!
01-15-2005, 07:30 PM
#269
Tech Regular
That's well said.
I'd like to add my thoughts on "costs".
Cost-wise, RC racing is about a cheap as it gets. While I can understand that it may seem to be a lot, I'd like to compare it to another form of racing I'm very familiar with - karts.
A set of decent kart tires costs around $180. To be competetive, even on a club level, you'll need a fresh set for every race and you'll get one or maybe two practice sessions after that. Compare that to $40 (avg) for a set of foams. With a $100 used truer you can get a lot of laps out of a set. For the Cost of one set of kart slicks I could get 4 full sets of Jacos and for 1 season of kart racing I could probably get enough foam to run for 2-3 years plus a Hudy tire lathe.
A kart motor can run you from around $800 - thousands. You'll get a season or two out of it, but you'll need at least two top-end rebuilds and probably more at $300 /pop. I have yet to see even a top-shelf RC modified over the counter for 1/10 that much. My old kart motor was $2000 new. For that money and it's upkeep for two years I could buy a Facts Machine, a Turbo 35, a Hudy Lathe, 6 batt pax, 10 Stock motors, a hood aligner and a year's supply of brushes and probably have money left over.
Fuel runs 5-6 bucks/gal and when it's gone, it's gone. You'll go through 2-3 gallons or more every time you go to the track. Racing fuel doesn't keep well either. I use Ebay batteries I hooked up with at around $30 / 6 - they're as good as I need and when they run out of juice I put them on my used GM Commander ($100) and in a little while they're good to go again.
A kart chassis will set you back about $3000 right now. That's a roller. For that, I could get a new chassis every year for five years AND send my wife to Vegas once.
A full driver's kit can run $500 - $1K. With that I could buy a bunch of bodies and pay to have them painted to boot!
Entry fees run $50 on up for a race. practice track time is 20 - 50 bucks per visit. I pay 6 bucks to practice on the rug at my LHS, and races are something like $8 on wednsday nites (free practice for racers all day). There are also dollar beers afterwards at Appleby's just across the parking lot.
I wrecked my kart about a year ago and the subsequent hospital bills cost my insurance company somewhere around $50K. You can crash the bejesus out of an RC car and nobody gets an ambulance ride.
So, while RC does cost money, in the big scheme of things it's a bargain. Comapared to what karting cost me (and my insurance company), RC racing is heaven price-wise.
And besides, if it didn't cost money, it wouldn't be racing. It would be driving.
<DrX>
I'd like to add my thoughts on "costs".
Cost-wise, RC racing is about a cheap as it gets. While I can understand that it may seem to be a lot, I'd like to compare it to another form of racing I'm very familiar with - karts.
A set of decent kart tires costs around $180. To be competetive, even on a club level, you'll need a fresh set for every race and you'll get one or maybe two practice sessions after that. Compare that to $40 (avg) for a set of foams. With a $100 used truer you can get a lot of laps out of a set. For the Cost of one set of kart slicks I could get 4 full sets of Jacos and for 1 season of kart racing I could probably get enough foam to run for 2-3 years plus a Hudy tire lathe.
A kart motor can run you from around $800 - thousands. You'll get a season or two out of it, but you'll need at least two top-end rebuilds and probably more at $300 /pop. I have yet to see even a top-shelf RC modified over the counter for 1/10 that much. My old kart motor was $2000 new. For that money and it's upkeep for two years I could buy a Facts Machine, a Turbo 35, a Hudy Lathe, 6 batt pax, 10 Stock motors, a hood aligner and a year's supply of brushes and probably have money left over.
Fuel runs 5-6 bucks/gal and when it's gone, it's gone. You'll go through 2-3 gallons or more every time you go to the track. Racing fuel doesn't keep well either. I use Ebay batteries I hooked up with at around $30 / 6 - they're as good as I need and when they run out of juice I put them on my used GM Commander ($100) and in a little while they're good to go again.
A kart chassis will set you back about $3000 right now. That's a roller. For that, I could get a new chassis every year for five years AND send my wife to Vegas once.
A full driver's kit can run $500 - $1K. With that I could buy a bunch of bodies and pay to have them painted to boot!
Entry fees run $50 on up for a race. practice track time is 20 - 50 bucks per visit. I pay 6 bucks to practice on the rug at my LHS, and races are something like $8 on wednsday nites (free practice for racers all day). There are also dollar beers afterwards at Appleby's just across the parking lot.
I wrecked my kart about a year ago and the subsequent hospital bills cost my insurance company somewhere around $50K. You can crash the bejesus out of an RC car and nobody gets an ambulance ride.
So, while RC does cost money, in the big scheme of things it's a bargain. Comapared to what karting cost me (and my insurance company), RC racing is heaven price-wise.
And besides, if it didn't cost money, it wouldn't be racing. It would be driving.
<DrX>
Originally posted by Turbo Joe
The vibe I get from this thread overall is kinda like this. There's a small, but vocal group of guys who've been messing with R/C cars for a long time...and gotten quite good at it, evidently.
They feel insulted that anyone would dare meddle with the "sport" as they see it -- in a way that would lower the difficulty level for those who have either just started or who want to participate in a somewhat-less-than-lifestyle-changing level.
The only problem is:
(whisper)
...YOU GUYS ARE PRETTY LONELY. AND IT'S NOT GETTING ANY BETTER.
(/whisper)
Something needs to change...and it's not "getting on TV".
I see new people race novice at SoCal all the time...and never see them again.
If it wasn't for Natedog taking over the local p/l race for a while and making a concerted effort to reach out to us noobs...I would have already bailed on it.
I do it because the guys I race with are great (the TAOB crowd) and I like to see them race each other door to door...but I'm not going to pretend that I'll ever put forth the effort to win the trip to Japan...but I go to SoCal every Tuesday and shell out my $40 or so for entry and sh*t.
I respectfully submit that the "sport" (hobby) really needs more people like ME and fewer "wanna-bee Kinwalds" with bad attitudes. I get to see him drive every Tuesday...you guys aren't gonna get there. Give up now while you still have a chance to have a life.
The vibe I get from this thread overall is kinda like this. There's a small, but vocal group of guys who've been messing with R/C cars for a long time...and gotten quite good at it, evidently.
They feel insulted that anyone would dare meddle with the "sport" as they see it -- in a way that would lower the difficulty level for those who have either just started or who want to participate in a somewhat-less-than-lifestyle-changing level.
The only problem is:
(whisper)
...YOU GUYS ARE PRETTY LONELY. AND IT'S NOT GETTING ANY BETTER.
(/whisper)
Something needs to change...and it's not "getting on TV".
I see new people race novice at SoCal all the time...and never see them again.
If it wasn't for Natedog taking over the local p/l race for a while and making a concerted effort to reach out to us noobs...I would have already bailed on it.
I do it because the guys I race with are great (the TAOB crowd) and I like to see them race each other door to door...but I'm not going to pretend that I'll ever put forth the effort to win the trip to Japan...but I go to SoCal every Tuesday and shell out my $40 or so for entry and sh*t.
I respectfully submit that the "sport" (hobby) really needs more people like ME and fewer "wanna-bee Kinwalds" with bad attitudes. I get to see him drive every Tuesday...you guys aren't gonna get there. Give up now while you still have a chance to have a life.