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Old 02-01-2012, 04:55 PM   #91
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:14 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by locked View Post
Did you read what I wrote? I'm in favor of the other classes being 8 minutes, but if we don't change all other classes to match 12th, then change 12th to match the others.

The way it is currently, just doesn't seem very fair. We all pay the same fees, Why give one class more time than the others?
It's uncomfortable to change 12th. 12th has been so cool at 8 min and it's what we're used to for the original, small electric car

Originally Posted by corallyman View Post
History, History, History. I raced my first first 1/12th scale race in 1980 and guess what, it was 8 minutes and stop where you were on the track. We did not finish the lap you were on. 1/12th is the second longest class there is. 1/8th on road nitro being the longest.

Why change something that works well. I also don't feel going to longer race heats does much. I personally would rather race (3) 8 minute runs than (2) 10 minute runs, and it has nothing to do with the extra minutes. I would always rather have more attempts at the track and improving my qualifing time.

If your car setup is off for that round, do you really want to drive it longer?

More attempts = More fun.

Just an opinion of someone who remembers the "good ole days"

+1 for the "good ole days"

Originally Posted by artwork View Post
Let's just be honest...people hate marshaling races longer then 6 minutes. Trying to get a volunteer marshal for 1/12th scale is very difficult. People will do whatever they can to look as busy or as checked out as possible so that they are not asked to have to come out and marshal. So, yes this is a problem too.
Marshals getting upset corning for an extra 2 minutes is silly as also I don't remember anyone else who has spoken saying it was bothersome

Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
Bit of 12th scale, 8 minutes of Racin, envy here.

I go racing because it's fun, not so I can hurry back to the pits to work on my car.

Really don't get the point of this thread.

I'm out..............
Total 12th envy OMG

Originally Posted by hairy View Post
DEfine "fair"
12th runs at 8 min. if you change it then it's not fair to those who race 12th.
Fair is a relative term that is way over used in this touchy feely world that has evolved.
we want to make racig fair for all who race, baloney. you arn't looking for fair you just want to screw with something that been working for DECADES
12th is last class I would mess with IMHO

Originally Posted by JamesL_71 View Post
But the argument that 12th racers getting 2 extra mins of runtime per round is extremely petty and downright laughable.

You picked your class, warts and all... deal with it. You want extra run time, race 12th.

Originally Posted by artwork View Post
I simply started the thread to ask why they are still 8 minutes...? As usual people take this way off on a tangent and starting interjecting their narrow minded political commentary which is totally unwanted and unnecessary.

Still all of these responses and not one answer to the first question.

I would even take "we have no idea why they are still 8 minutes, but we like it and we are cooler then everyone else in RC racing" as a possible answer.

I get that people do not want to change and that change is very very scary. I am not even sure it needs to change, I was just wondering why?

This has turned out as expected...
Dude there are no 12th scalers wanting this in this thread or in general

What's the old saying "Walk in another man's shoes"

Originally Posted by Josh-n-ya View Post
At least you didnt say you wanted spec tires in 12th You would of had a mob after you!
Yea he is lucky in that regard

Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
It's this type of ridiculous whining that's ruining the on-road scene virtually everywhere.

Originally Posted by chris moore View Post
Wow just wow, your surprised that your thread has turned after you use statements like"1/12th scale elitists" and "1/12th scale drivers have a lower IQ" I really have to wonder about your people skills. Your question has already been answered many times, the race time was established long ago by the govening bodies (ROAR) at a time when there was really only one class 12th. That over time more electric class's have ben created and those race times were set at a different level is not the fault of the 12th class, if you have issues with that then you need to put together a case and persent it to ROAR. But if you want to be taken serously I suggest that you give some thought to your choice of words.
I don't think he understands how f'n totally rad and bitchen 12th is?

Originally Posted by HarryLeach View Post
The reason it is the way it is has been answered repeatedly, and you don't accept it.

Back in the day, 8 minutes in 1/12 was considered the limit of the equipment of the time, namely the batteries. As new chassis classes came about, the races were timed accordingly.

In the case of 1/10 pan cars, the tires are larger, adding more load to the motor, pulling more amps, which lead to adding more cells to the chassis, increasing weight, but not doing much for run time.

During the battery wars, guys were gearing up for more speed, which meant the batteries were still on the limit for run time.

This continued all the way up until round cells got into the 3600mAh+ range, and it was still possible to dump depending on the class.

Touring cars started as a novelty, 4wd, full independent suspension. Drive train efficiency has never been a strong suit of the format, so again, the races had to be kept short.

With the introduction of Brushless, motor efficiency improved to the point that you could actually make warm-up laps, cross the timing loop under power a few times to check in, run your race, and still have juice in the pack, though you didn't want to do it too much since voltage drop at the end of a run could cost you a couple laps in a qualifier.

Having a race length short enough where the lap times are fairly close from start to finish is a better judge of driving ability, and less a judge of money spent on equipment.

With LiPo, the equipment available to competitors has never been more even. There's still better motors, team guys still have access to the best stuff, but everyone has the ability to start a heat at the same battery voltage, and voltage drop throughout a race is much less than the Nickle battery days. This has been the main reason Touring made the fairly rapid jump from 4 to 5 to now 6 minute heats in the last few years.

I know the equipment in use by most TC guys are capable of racing 8-10 minute heats. Why don't we do it? For the same reason you've said before, guys that want change use the rules as a reason to fix what's broken, in their eyes, and hide behind them when they don't want to change.

1/12 has been 8 minutes since the Early 80's, and probably before, and there's been no REASON to change it. With the current equipment, a bad setup is very hard to drive for 6 minutes, let alone make it to 8, a slightly off setup is drive-able for 8 minutes, but probably not fast, and a perfect setup might be good for 10 minutes, but the lap time spread between the first and last minute on a single car would probably grow.

So, for the time being, I don't see a reason to push 1/12 longer than 8 minutes, barring some breakthrough to help make the tires stay consistent for more than 8 minutes, and shortening the races, IMO, would take a lot of the setup skill required out of the class.

Bottom line, IMO, 1/12 is still 8 minutes, because it's still challenging at that length.
Honestly, I am finally happy that 12th doesn't have the battery war it did in earlier times. Now this person wan'ts to mess with it Even with motors in mod they are very similar and work well so now we kinda have down time with 12th being a car of choice, setup and driver challenge not all the wars of the past 12th experience

It's finally settling down and equalizing, why mess with it when we are on the upside of the 12th phenomenon
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:25 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by hairy View Post
DEfine "fair"
12th runs at 8 min. if you change it then it's not fair to those who race 12th.
Fair is a relative term that is way over used in this touchy feely world that has evolved.
we want to make racig fair for all who race, baloney. you arn't looking for fair you just want to screw with something that been working for DECADES. I think you listen to Obamna speeches too much....everything is not fair.
If you are looking for fair then why not make everyone drive the same car motor and set up then the whole shootin' match would be fair.

GeT A FRIKIN LIFE...oh wait life ain't fair so let's change that too. that way little johnny won't feel bad if he dosen't win.
King logic turning a discussion about race time into Obama speeches and little johnny not being able to win. Thanks man, we are all a little dumber after reading your rant.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:38 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Chaz955i View Post
King logic turning a discussion about race time into Obama speeches and little johnny not being able to win. Thanks man, we are all a little dumber after reading your rant.
Thanks to Obamna, racig is too fair. arn't that a shame.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:58 PM   #95
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As short as I can make it. It's my .02, for what it's worth.

A) I am for one thing and one thing only. Track time for racers. I don't care the car the class or the method of propulsion. If you're hobby doesn't fill your time and put a smile on your face you get another hobby that fills your time.

IFMAR, means nothing to 99.995% of the racers in North America.
If racer-"x" is going to the worlds, we shouldn't care one bit if some class in his club does NOT conform to what he needs for practice. More practice and for the other 1000 guys trumps out. I don't particularly care about the one griping guy, none of us should, if it's half the guys, then yes, we should. I only care about getting people track time and fun. He (whoever might have a problem with not matching IFMAR "stuff") should also be a team player and realize what is for the better good of a club.

"longer race will take to long on a club day". Nope, waiting and waiting for drivers to get on the stand and "racer minutes" do. Once they're on the stand it's 100% efficient, capitalize on that. the hard part is done, the race is going, the marshals are there. LET THEM RACE!

"longer races would kill races like the snowbirds (or whatever)"
Nope. Imagine a scenario where a race sold out because they had to limit entrys?! That's what you get. And the racers that go get a more quality experience with more track time. That is NOT a lose scenario. More pit space, everything is better. Would you gladly pay an extra $20 per class for double the track time? who wouldn't? It all works out.

"...dumping a lipo will start a fire..."
what? doesn't that required stored energy? didn't we just use all that up? I'm not here to tell you how to treat your packs. I will say that I've rented cars with lipos, and taken them to picnics and events. And you're busy working on one when somebody taps you on the back, "this car is broken, it quit moving". Driven lipo packs until the car stopped moving, completely stopped, many times a day. Charged right back up. First few times it happened I was pretty worried. I quit worrying about it. Maybe there is long term damage. I don't have the data to support anything but what we've noticed here. You should test for yourself. Would I recommend it, no. don't do it. Just like overgearing your brushless motor and getting it to hot and ruining it. How far you push your equipment is a line you need to investigate on your own.

"They've always been 8 minutes...", well, that's true. But it used to be cars without suspension, cars with wiper speed controls, crystals, batterys with only 1200 mah of power to give, and a motor that was putting out 30 watts at 60% efficiency. Now we have more than 5 times the capacity with cells. Motors that are more than 90% efficient and cars that are nearly to fast for most drivers and we bring back 60-70% of the battery we started with. Things have changed. we didn't really even have brushless until about 2003. and for a lot of racers, that's all they've ever known.

It's time for 1/12th to run longer. I've done a lot of testing with it. all that happens is that some other class of drivers bitches they had to marshal 20 minute heats. I think it's absurd not to run longer. 20 minutes is not out of the question at all. and stop running 4 heats of 4 guys at a club race. It's hard on marshals, and stretches the day out. Start packing the heats. Get people the other thing they need, practice in traffic. Only takes 6 more minutes total to run 3 fifteen minute qualifiers compared to 4 8 minute qualifiers. 6 minutes for nearly double the track time.

"Running longer is going to create a battery war".
I think you give yourself to much credit as a driver. The speed of the cars is to fast for 90% of us, or there would be no reason for us to be down 4-5 laps at bigger races. (against drivers with the same equipment). Equipment has finally surpassed 99% of us. Coming back with 70% of your pack left after 9 minutes or coming back with 30% of your pack left after 16 minutes. I don't see an issue, at all. (extra minute added for guys hot laping). Motor heat is motor heat, it's the limiter we've all pretty much decided on. None of us is dumping with a cold motor. In fact, none of us is dumping... at all, period. I don't know you could possibly do it, unless you ran you're 17.5 blinky car off of just the receiver pack. even then, you'd make a nice slow minute or so on a 200mah pack. you could make time on a 1700 mah pack of aaa's. It's just silly what we have that we don't use now. We don't even run mod anymore because nobody can handle it. And nobody is dumping there either, all 12 of those guys nationwide. (shame really).

In the end, do what's right for you club, and you're group. there is plenty of time to run longer, if you keep on track with your time between heats. Start leaving guys that are late. They'll be on time the very next time. Every time. It's not acceptable to hold up a big group of people. Occasionally you just have to say to yourself, "I'm not gonna make it". that's racing. I've run as many as 8 cars at an event and never once required a racer minute. and there are times I've needed a few seconds. It happens, but I know when to throw in the towel to NOT drag down the community. I think if a racer minute was $10 nobody would ever call for one. So at that point, something so important as making a heat and holding up the show isn't worth 10 bucks.

No excuse not to get more track time in 1/12th. If you don't think that's fair, as your other class doesn't get that kind of track time, get a different car and get the track time. You're the team captain of your team, make a decision.

I'm here to tell you, that there is nothing better about the hobby than driving our cars. and the rules related to "time" are taking 70% of what we are entitled to get, away from us. That's a shame.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:20 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by nf_ekt View Post
Thanks to Obamna, racig is too fair. arn't that a shame.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:24 PM   #97
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1/12 scale is the ONLY perfect electric racing!!!
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:29 PM   #98
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A pleasure to read... finally.
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:44 PM   #99
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Thanks Bob for the great post... spot on.

And sorry I posted the link on the vintage AE car, if you were trying to win it ... but I was so jazzed to find it I had to! I'm sure you will come out on top .
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Old 02-01-2012, 06:45 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by terry.sc View Post
One criticism of current 1/12th scale is that you can just throttle jam for the full 8 minutes these days,
You must be running 17.5 blinky I take it?
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:41 PM   #101
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Just to piss you all off a tiny bit more, we race 3 x 10 minute F1 Mains.

I love 1/12th and run a Rebel on race days, so I end up with twice as much track time.................hahahahaha

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Old 02-01-2012, 08:09 PM   #102
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I think Art's question is a good one. I had exactly the same question when I first started racing. I also think Bob's post is the best reponse on the thread.

Here's the way I see it.

1) Why does 1/12 run 8 min, and TC etc less? Answer: History. The consensus seems to be that there's no longer any technical reason for it.

2) So, should TC etc be allowed to run the same length as 1/12? I think it should. To say that everything besides 1/12 shouldn't run as long, because it's not 1/12, and isn't historically entitled to it... pretty much comes down to discrimination. Anyone who disagrees with that, I think does fall into locked's d-bag category.

3) So, should TC etc be bumped up to 8 min to match 1/12?

At our club, that's probably not possible. Bob raised some good points, especially with respect to big races. But an entry cap at a club event doesn't seem like a good option. On a weds night when we start racing at 7:15 and need to be done by 11-11:30, with 10 heats and 55 entries, only 3 of them 1/12. 2 qualies and a main, increasing the other 7 heats by 2 minutes adds 42 minutes to the race night, and we almost always run over as is. Sure, we probably have too many inefficiencies between rounds, but still, I don't think there's 42 minutes. Maybe we could stack heats a little more, but that's not an option with our track (which is huge by club carpet standards) with random heat seeding. It might be possible if seeded by historical performance. Re-sorts take time, and we don't do them on wednesdays.

So, should 1/12 be knocked back to 6 minutes? Say we have 3 heats of 1/12, knocking that back to 6 minutes saves 3 * 2 * 3 = 18 minutes. It's only 12 minutes if there's only 2 heats. The answer at our club, the last time it came up, was that saving 12-18 minutes isn't worth pissing off the 1/12 drivers. Probably the right choice.

Ok, so we're left with "if you want to race 8 minutes, race 1/12". We've certainly seen some of that in our club, but I still think that goes back to discrimination. Perhaps 1/3, maybe half on the outside, of the drivers present on a race night in our club are really capable of running a full night of 1/12 with a decent pace and without grievous injury to equipment. I'm not in that group yet, although I think I will be with a couple more tries at it. So we're almost back to discrimination against the guys who simply can't handle it yet. Sure, we have no rules against anyone entering the class. But slower guys will be discouraged somewhat by being off pace, but probably even more by feeling like they're in the way. The solution to that second half goes back to seeding by historical performance. You can also justify "if you want 8 minutes, run 1/12" by looking at it as a reward for hard work at improving your driving skills.

So, say more and more people run 1/12 because they want their 8 minutes, now you've got 5 heats, and your race night is longer, and knocking it back to 6 minutes would save 5 * 2 * 3 = 30 minutes. Starting to be more significant. If it's due to people adding 1/12 as a second class, instead of switching to 1/12, it's much worse.

At the end of the day, I think the only real answer to the original explanation of why 1/12 is 8 minutes, and TC etc are 6, and it should stay that way, is either that it's discrimination, but we're OK with it. Or maybe that it's a reward for working hard to improve yourself as a driver, if you want to look at it more positively.

But if our club decided to bring TC etc up to 8 minutes, and the 1/12 guys started insisting on getting 10 minutes, I'd be

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Old 02-01-2012, 08:52 PM   #103
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If the problem is too many racers and classes at one given night, and that the extra 3 minutes in 1/12 scale leads to late nights, then that is a happy problem.

But in the peak of rc in 80s and 90s, tracks had 200 - 400 entries. And still managed.

I would think nowadays some race nights are just 10 - 30 racers? Extra run times should not be an issue?
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:17 PM   #104
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All this over 2 minutes..
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:19 PM   #105
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Because history is why 1/12 is 8 min that makes no sence. What was the origional reason in the first place because you could with 4 cells?
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