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Old 05-15-2012, 07:35 PM   #481
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Hanulec, (Or anyone else who can help)

A few questions about your most recent 17.5/Jackson setup...

You have listed - Plastic arm mounts (roll centre inserts) as M and the steel insert as M also, does this mean M low or M high (No medium available, if you know what I mean)

And on that, if I assume its with the insert in the low position and use the kit roll mounts and inserts (EX) I would use 0.5mm shims on the chassis to achieve the same roll centre... Right?

Also, you are using the 'optional' camber plates, if I wasnt to use the stock ones (EX) what do I need to do to the setup?

I ask all this because i have not really run the car before and will be going away to race shortly (with no track time between now and then) and want a decent base setup for a med. grip asphalt track. Its pertty tight, but I think the jackson setup would work good from the videos I have seen.

The biggest problem I have with the kit setup was loose rear end (on a low grip fast flowing track). I wont have much time to set the car up and as long as its balanced, i can get the car around qyuickly enough.

Thanks in advance....
Phill
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:01 PM   #482
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Hanulec, (Or anyone else who can help)

A few questions about your most recent 17.5/Jackson setup...

You have listed - Plastic arm mounts (roll centre inserts) as M and the steel insert as M also, does this mean M low or M high (No medium available, if you know what I mean)

And on that, if I assume its with the insert in the low position and use the kit roll mounts and inserts (EX) I would use 0.5mm shims on the chassis to achieve the same roll centre... Right?

Also, you are using the 'optional' camber plates, if I wasnt to use the stock ones (EX) what do I need to do to the setup?

I ask all this because i have not really run the car before and will be going away to race shortly (with no track time between now and then) and want a decent base setup for a med. grip asphalt track. Its pertty tight, but I think the jackson setup would work good from the videos I have seen.

The biggest problem I have with the kit setup was loose rear end (on a low grip fast flowing track). I wont have much time to set the car up and as long as its balanced, i can get the car around qyuickly enough.

Thanks in advance....
Phill
Hi Phill - a few thoughts..

the arm inserts that come with the kit are centered and allow for a button head screw. i'm trying to use these whenever possible vs the old high/low inserts that had a tendency to 'spin'. if these centered inserts spin it won't be that much of an issue.

arm holders- w/o buying anything additional, using the kit high plastic arm mounts with centered inserts and zero shims will get you within 0.4mm of why my hinge pins are. im using the medium plastic + centered insert + 0.5mm of shim.

the optional camber plates is basically a carry over from the Photon. they worked really well over there. it will provide an inbetween position as compared to the stock option. i had to drill these carbon plates as they where really designed for the 2.5mm bulkheads. w/o running these, i'd choose to run the 'stock' ones, in the long position w/o 1mm less shim (the thickness difference between the carbon and metal parts is 1mm)

if the car is loose try two things:
1- lengthen the rear wheelbase
2- add shims to the front upper camber link -- do something drastic like add 2mm from where ever you are to see if it helps
3- stand up the rear shocks and/or try a harder rear spring
4- worst case, remove the two 'rear' screws from the top deck to the motor plate.

i have to say i'm really excited about the setup i have on my car now. i'm going to try some other changes this weekend --- our final opportunity before leaving for San Fran and the Reedy Race.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:32 PM   #483
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3- stand up the rear shocks and/or try a harder rear spring
Do you mind explaining how this works? I'm trying to wrap my head around this.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:58 PM   #484
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Believe it or not, if the rear of the car is to soft or rolls to much, they'll be to much weight transfer to the outside tires causing the inside wheel to lose lateral grip. End result, the car to breaks loose.

The goal of setup is the transfer weight the outside tires but not so much the inside tire is not working effectively.
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Old 05-16-2012, 03:58 AM   #485
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Do you mind explaining how this works? I'm trying to wrap my head around this.
Standing up the shock makes the effective spring rate stiffer. You can see a similar change by going to a harder rear spring and you either loose rear end grip by being too stiff or find the car pushes with a heavier rear spring.

On the Photon with Larry's setup this was the most common change that we made to adjust the car - indoors or outdoors - as track conditions altered through the day. It a real easy "fix" without adjusting anything else. Just don't forget to lay them back down when the track tightens up (at night or when traction is high).
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:06 AM   #486
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Hi Phill - a few thoughts..
arm holders- w/o buying anything additional, using the kit high plastic arm mounts with centered inserts and zero shims will get you within 0.4mm of why my hinge pins are. im using the medium plastic + centered insert + 0.5mm of shim.
Ok thanks.
That seems super low with no bars, but you know better than I do

I'm just learning with no bars. Only had it work well at one track so far... Any general tips for someone not used to setting up a car like this?
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Old 05-16-2012, 07:37 AM   #487
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So I was re-shimming the suspension arms tonight to get rid of the excess play (so busy doing other stuff during the first build and run, that I forgot), and it looks to me like it's dead on .5mm out front and rear, so I'm guessing just a miscalculation when they did the manual and prepared the kits.

But the manual shows up front, a .5mm shim and a 2.5mm shim, so I replaced the .5 with a 1.0mm shim, and it feels right.
At the back the manual shows two 1.5mm shims, so I replaced one with a 2.0mm shim, and that also now feels about right.

So EX build tip, make sure you have/buy a pack of 1mm shims (AW-S100RD), and a pack of 2mm shims (AW-S200RD).
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:20 AM   #488
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Am I imagining it, or do the TOP option pistons give a lighter action than the stock kit plastic pistons?.

I built my new EX shocks with the options, but I just did a rebuild of my original shocks (interestingly using tamiya shafts/orings/bladders), and the old shocks with the stock pistons feel stiffer than the new shocks with the option pistons (same oils).
Yes the optional machined pistions will have a lighter feel. I think the optinal pistion is slightly thinner which contributes to that. That's why I'm running 1.0mm hole opposed to a 1.2mm hole. I also shim it using a .3mm shim opposed to the .2mm shim it comes with.
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:41 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by bkspeedo View Post
Believe it or not, if the rear of the car is to soft or rolls to much, they'll be to much weight transfer to the outside tires causing the inside wheel to lose lateral grip. End result, the car to breaks loose.

The goal of setup is the transfer weight the outside tires but not so much the inside tire is not working effectively.
Thanks for the good explanation. It helps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanulec View Post
Standing up the shock makes the effective spring rate stiffer. You can see a similar change by going to a harder rear spring and you either loose rear end grip by being too stiff or find the car pushes with a heavier rear spring.

On the Photon with Larry's setup this was the most common change that we made to adjust the car - indoors or outdoors - as track conditions altered through the day. It a real easy "fix" without adjusting anything else. Just don't forget to lay them back down when the track tightens up (at night or when traction is high).
How would increasing/decreasing rear toe-in work in relation to a rear end being too loose?
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:55 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by Bishop View Post
So I was re-shimming the suspension arms tonight to get rid of the excess play (so busy doing other stuff during the first build and run, that I forgot), and it looks to me like it's dead on .5mm out front and rear, so I'm guessing just a miscalculation when they did the manual and prepared the kits.

But the manual shows up front, a .5mm shim and a 2.5mm shim, so I replaced the .5 with a 1.0mm shim, and it feels right.
At the back the manual shows two 1.5mm shims, so I replaced one with a 2.0mm shim, and that also now feels about right.

So EX build tip, make sure you have/buy a pack of 1mm shims (AW-S100RD), and a pack of 2mm shims (AW-S200RD).
totally agree with you!
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Old 05-16-2012, 04:35 PM   #491
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Ok thanks.
That seems super low with no bars, but you know better than I do

I'm just learning with no bars. Only had it work well at one track so far... Any general tips for someone not used to setting up a car like this?
There is nothing preventing you from running bars. I'm pretty sure EJ go back and forth between running bars or not. Basically instead of bars you just spring up. To much front spring may overheat your front tires -- so watch out. You can continue to run bars -- just try the car every once and a while without either the front/rear/all attached.

I personally don't know how to even build bars for a Photon or EX. I skip that section of the manual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tr1kstanc3 View Post
How would increasing/decreasing rear toe-in work in relation to a rear end being too loose?
More rear toe usually helps u from being loose, unless you go to far, and then overheat your tires and make the car loose later in the run. Take a read of the XRay T3 setup book and Martin Crisp's XXX Main book or setup 'apps' for android/iphone/etc. Rear toe also depends upon how fast or slow you go. Modified TC may be able to get away with less rear toe. I remember way back when I won Amateur at IIC I had nearly 4 degrees of rear toe in my T2'008.

For me and the EX -- increasing my rear wheelbase length remove my on-power and neutral power (sweeper) looseness.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:48 PM   #492
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its been quiet in here...

i half built my TOP gear diff again -- this time using a different o-ring (SPEC-R X-Ring SPR010-OR). the inner diameter of the SPEC-R o-rings is much smaller than the TOP ones, but the outside diameter is pretty similar. i had to smash the large metal shim and pin back onto the outdrive as the X-Ring is so big. i have the diff sitting with my same 15wt Losi oil installed. lets see what happens.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:12 PM   #493
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its been quiet in here...

i half built my TOP gear diff again -- this time using a different o-ring (SPEC-R X-Ring SPR010-OR). the inner diameter of the SPEC-R o-rings is much smaller than the TOP ones, but the outside diameter is pretty similar. i had to smash the large metal shim and pin back onto the outdrive as the X-Ring is so big. i have the diff sitting with my same 15wt Losi oil installed. lets see what happens.
Micheal... Why 15wt losi oil? What is it that you like about that weight of oil?
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:23 PM   #494
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its been quiet in here...

i half built my TOP gear diff again -- this time using a different o-ring (SPEC-R X-Ring SPR010-OR). the inner diameter of the SPEC-R o-rings is much smaller than the TOP ones, but the outside diameter is pretty similar. i had to smash the large metal shim and pin back onto the outdrive as the X-Ring is so big. i have the diff sitting with my same 15wt Losi oil installed. lets see what happens.
I had a chance to give the EX a shakedown today. The track we run on was a bit dusty and traction was fairly low. Ran EJ's setup except for the optional shock pistons and the tab on the chassis is still there. The car was rear happy and would lose grip coming out of the corners, I moved the rear shocks to hole 3 and it was better but still a little happy out back. I decided to try hole 2 and that was much better! the EX was more stable coming out of the corners. I also tried some grease on the o-rings (mugen anti wear grease) the grease is a little tacky, but the diff was smooooth and I only saw a very minor amount of oil coming out around the outdrives. Sunday the track will be prepped so I will see how these changes hold up......
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:27 PM   #495
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Micheal... Why 15wt losi oil? What is it that you like about that weight of oil?
ever since the SPEC-R gear diffs for XRay (38t) and Yokomo (40t) came out I've found that light oil on asphalt makes the cars (first a T3'2010, and then my Photon) rotate really well, especially in the tight 180's we have at Jackson RC on the left hand side near the drivers stand. this data comes from 2010 testing.

in more recent times - jan/feb 2012 - Larry and I tried running gear diffs indoors on carpet again. we found that diffs with too thick of oil (2k / 5k grease) would cause the car to be very quick, but hard to drive unless you where perfect with throttle application. for the few weeks when the ground was super cold, and attendance was low I found that my 15wt gear diff (left over from Jackson) was better than ball diffs -- even allowing me to be on the same pace as Larry that day (hasn't happened since that one day...)
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