1LikesWouldn't Rubber Tires for 1/12 Scale Be a GOLD mine ?
12-21-2011, 10:27 AM
#16
If they could make rubber tires hook up as good as foams I'd be all for it...problem is they don't. Also a big part of what makes 1/12th what it is is that it doesn't use the same type of bodies you see in TC...leave that for the mini class.
12-21-2011, 10:51 AM
#17
+1
part of the attraction for me is the precision with which 12th can be driven. It simply is not possible with rubber tires, there heavier effecting acceleration, high axle height affecting atability, and even the best rubber tire drivers are luck if 2 cars get through the same turn together.
...lolpart of the attraction for me is the precision with which 12th can be driven. It simply is not possible with rubber tires, there heavier effecting acceleration, high axle height affecting atability, and even the best rubber tire drivers are luck if 2 cars get through the same turn together.
12-21-2011, 10:52 AM
#18
pan: foam
non-pan: rubber
don't change rules.
non-pan: rubber
don't change rules.
12-21-2011, 10:58 AM
#19
+1
part of the attraction for me is the precision with which 12th can be driven. It simply is not possible with rubber tires, there heavier effecting acceleration, high axle height affecting atability, and even the best rubber tire drivers are luck if 2 cars get through the same turn together.
part of the attraction for me is the precision with which 12th can be driven. It simply is not possible with rubber tires, there heavier effecting acceleration, high axle height affecting atability, and even the best rubber tire drivers are luck if 2 cars get through the same turn together.
i realize they would be a little heavier, but how do they handle on a road course?
12-21-2011, 11:00 AM
#21
The problem with the Mini class that are more GT oriented is that they're just a mini version of a TC with all the shocks and 4WD like a TC. Not quite the simplicity people are attracted to in a pan car which is what the Yokomo and the Kawada are. If the "A" Team can bring a converted 12R5 version of the 1/12GT here in the US, others like Tamiya could follow if not the other way around with a GT version of the upcoming RM-01.
12-21-2011, 11:02 AM
#22
At least with the rubber/foam argument in TC there was plenty of real-world data indicating the speed and handling differences between the two. An argument could be made for one or the other.
To say rubber 1/12 tires (caps are not the same as rubber) won't work without ever having seen or tried them is jumping the gun a bit.
World GT should have been a rubber tire class.
To say rubber 1/12 tires (caps are not the same as rubber) won't work without ever having seen or tried them is jumping the gun a bit.
World GT should have been a rubber tire class.
12-21-2011, 11:52 AM
#23
Tech Apprentice
I don't like 1/12. Because I think the handling is very unrealistical. I have watched them closely to try to understand, I even drove them many years ago.
I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
12-21-2011, 11:54 AM
#24
BSR has a rubber capped tire that they list as use for asphalt...haven't tried em though.
However after running rubber tires for many years in pan cars on F1 cars I definitely don't like the current rubber tires for pan cars as they are basically the same compound as TC tires so they just don't work well for pan cars. Tamiya had a rubber cap compound we used to glue over the foams to get better grip on asphalt. The rubber was super sticky and wore much quicker than TC rubber...but the grip was pretty good. If companies were to go more in that direction for rubber tires for pan cars I think it could work. Problem is manufacturers are much more likely to use what is already available (TC tires) rather than go out on a limb and research something that could be truly evolutionary.
However after running rubber tires for many years in pan cars on F1 cars I definitely don't like the current rubber tires for pan cars as they are basically the same compound as TC tires so they just don't work well for pan cars. Tamiya had a rubber cap compound we used to glue over the foams to get better grip on asphalt. The rubber was super sticky and wore much quicker than TC rubber...but the grip was pretty good. If companies were to go more in that direction for rubber tires for pan cars I think it could work. Problem is manufacturers are much more likely to use what is already available (TC tires) rather than go out on a limb and research something that could be truly evolutionary.
12-21-2011, 12:02 PM
#25
12-21-2011, 12:51 PM
#27
When I spoke with someone from Sweep at the IIC a couple years ago they said they had a 1/12th rubber tire in development...not sure what happened to it. Perhaps someone could find out.
12-21-2011, 01:16 PM
#28
Tech Fanatic
It's been tried here in the UK several times, and it doesn't work. Here's the best explanation we can come up with. It's maybe not definitive, but it always fits the facts when we try rubber tyres...
A rubber tyre with a complete carcass, like those used in TC, has a single slip angle. Once you go beyond it, the sliding friction is so much less than the static friction that the car has to slow a lot before you regain grip.
A rubber cap tyre is more like a low-profile road tyre - although it still has a single slip angle, it is so stiff that the balance between grip and slide is a very narrow line that is easy to cross. The usual rule of thumb for a road tyre is that once the length of the contact patch is less than the width, the tyre behaves differently and is harder to drive as it doesn't telegraph its intentions slow enough for the average driver.
The suspension geometry required for a rubber tyre would try, in general, to maintain the contact patch on a single trajectory so that the whole patch is generally on a turning radius with the centre of the contact patch going through the radius of the turn. On Pan cars there is a lot of tyre scrub due to the tight turning radius compared to the width of the rear tyres, and the suspension offset due to the position of the kingpin and the trail of the axle. In other words, the very act of turning the car causes parts of the tyre to slip anyway, reducing the grip whatever speed you are traveling. This just makes the whole situation worse for getting a balance of grip.
A foam tyre is made up of thousands of individual pieces in contact with the track, all of which have their own slip angle - the tyre does not behave as one homogenous unit, but rather thousands of little units - like little contact patches. Whilst some are slipping, other are gripping. That allows us to drive the cars hard, and when we lose grip it is slow and progressive. We would argue (without any data!) that unless you do something idiotic (like turn full lock at top speed) it is almost impossible to completely lose grip at either end of a well set-up car.
Any attempt to produce a rubber tyre for 12th is doomed to failure as the suspension geometry cannot maintain the correct contact patch. If yuou want to run 12th on rubber tyres, use one of the many 12th Touring Cars available. They have narrow tyres (easier to control) and proper suspension geometry designed for a rubber tyre.
Good luck to anyone who wants to give it a go, but the reality is that the Laws of Physics are against you. Like someone said earlier, 12th ain't broke, so don't fix it. HTH
A rubber tyre with a complete carcass, like those used in TC, has a single slip angle. Once you go beyond it, the sliding friction is so much less than the static friction that the car has to slow a lot before you regain grip.
A rubber cap tyre is more like a low-profile road tyre - although it still has a single slip angle, it is so stiff that the balance between grip and slide is a very narrow line that is easy to cross. The usual rule of thumb for a road tyre is that once the length of the contact patch is less than the width, the tyre behaves differently and is harder to drive as it doesn't telegraph its intentions slow enough for the average driver.
The suspension geometry required for a rubber tyre would try, in general, to maintain the contact patch on a single trajectory so that the whole patch is generally on a turning radius with the centre of the contact patch going through the radius of the turn. On Pan cars there is a lot of tyre scrub due to the tight turning radius compared to the width of the rear tyres, and the suspension offset due to the position of the kingpin and the trail of the axle. In other words, the very act of turning the car causes parts of the tyre to slip anyway, reducing the grip whatever speed you are traveling. This just makes the whole situation worse for getting a balance of grip.
A foam tyre is made up of thousands of individual pieces in contact with the track, all of which have their own slip angle - the tyre does not behave as one homogenous unit, but rather thousands of little units - like little contact patches. Whilst some are slipping, other are gripping. That allows us to drive the cars hard, and when we lose grip it is slow and progressive. We would argue (without any data!) that unless you do something idiotic (like turn full lock at top speed) it is almost impossible to completely lose grip at either end of a well set-up car.
Any attempt to produce a rubber tyre for 12th is doomed to failure as the suspension geometry cannot maintain the correct contact patch. If yuou want to run 12th on rubber tyres, use one of the many 12th Touring Cars available. They have narrow tyres (easier to control) and proper suspension geometry designed for a rubber tyre.
Good luck to anyone who wants to give it a go, but the reality is that the Laws of Physics are against you. Like someone said earlier, 12th ain't broke, so don't fix it. HTH
12-21-2011, 01:31 PM
#29
Tech Regular
I don't like 1/12. Because I think the handling is very unrealistical. I have watched them closely to try to understand, I even drove them many years ago.
I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
Why does it have to be "Realistic". There is nothing about R/C that is realistic. Nothing good will come out of rubber tires for 1/12 except cars that handle bad like the current TC's. Classes have come and gone, 1/12 is still alive for many reasons, one being the rules for the class have had very little change.
Steve Dunn
Indianapolis, IN USA
12-21-2011, 01:32 PM
#30
I don't like 1/12. Because I think the handling is very unrealistical. I have watched them closely to try to understand, I even drove them many years ago.
I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
I believe rubber tyres would improve that but many other things should be changed in that class. But it will never happen. If there is one thing that won't change in RC it is 1/12. It is too bad, I understand the need for simplicity but something really good could be made out of it, but old 1/12 drivers are also the most conservative...they will never change.
Where would the GT500 Pan/Rubber combo fall in here, Do we need yet another class of painfully slow, scale cars parading around? perhaps, but don't we already have, RCGT, USVTA, F1, & Mini.
How many slow, realistic classes do we need?
Why is 12th scale so often the target of fixation for the rubber tire lovers.
12th scale is the fastest car on a road course, conservative as it is, that's the fact.
Simple, low cost, low maintenance, cheap tires, cheap lipos (1s)
It doesn't need to be fixed, no spec tires, rubber tires, just leave it alone, it works as is.