Fastest Spec/Blinky Mode ESC
10-15-2011, 01:00 PM
#136
I don't think those that think we need stricter rules understand what a RPM limit will do. Tied with a FDR limit, only set by each track, due to size and layout differences it can be really simple.
The fact is, if there is an RPM limit, an external device between the motor sensor and the ESC, or built into the ESC itself as a setting, the final top speed will never be able to exceed that limit. Yes, will some think that a factory driver has a different RPM limit, sure, there will always be skeptics out there. Since many want there to be a slower than mod class, a speed limited class, this can only be achieved by having exactly that, a limit on speed. Maybe a box you drop you car into at tech that has rollers and you must hit full throttle for three seconds before you run and if you go over the set RPM a red light comes on and you don't get to run. If the final tire RPM is the same for all cars, the reason someone will win, will be due to better car set-up so they can go around corners faster, combined with good driving = less crashing. I think we all can agree that on that. The method to do that needs to be simple so it is harder to cheat and easier to tech so we can spend more time on track improving our set-up and driving skills. Timing adjustments can still be part of tuning, just like chassis adjustments or even driving line adjustments. I am saying blink mode should just be an RPM limit, not a timing limit, they are different. You will not need a sealed motor to limit RPM. It can and should be done electronically within the ESC, or an external device. Not changeable by anyone. Will someone try defeat it, probably. Will they get caught, yes. When one car goes faster than everyone else down the straight, check it for conformity, if the RPM exceeds the limit, they are DQ'd.
The hard part for some will be the psychological part of not having a car that goes faster than someone else down the straight. I look at the run down the straight, as brief as it is, to reset myself for the rest of the track. I ran a car recently that was getting eaten alive down the straight, but I had the same lap times as my competitors. If someone wants to go for straight line bragging rights, try drag racing. I have done that. Can be an enjoyable form of racing as well.
Some have suggested going sensor-less, the only problem seems to be that with higher winds cogging is an issue, making drivability not good, so unless that can be solved, not a good option.
Again, limiting RPM will allow all the cool timing technology to still be used, its there use it, to tune for better punch, if thats what you like, or whatever you use to make you go around the track faster, but at a prescribed top speed for that class.
The fact is, if there is an RPM limit, an external device between the motor sensor and the ESC, or built into the ESC itself as a setting, the final top speed will never be able to exceed that limit. Yes, will some think that a factory driver has a different RPM limit, sure, there will always be skeptics out there. Since many want there to be a slower than mod class, a speed limited class, this can only be achieved by having exactly that, a limit on speed. Maybe a box you drop you car into at tech that has rollers and you must hit full throttle for three seconds before you run and if you go over the set RPM a red light comes on and you don't get to run. If the final tire RPM is the same for all cars, the reason someone will win, will be due to better car set-up so they can go around corners faster, combined with good driving = less crashing. I think we all can agree that on that. The method to do that needs to be simple so it is harder to cheat and easier to tech so we can spend more time on track improving our set-up and driving skills. Timing adjustments can still be part of tuning, just like chassis adjustments or even driving line adjustments. I am saying blink mode should just be an RPM limit, not a timing limit, they are different. You will not need a sealed motor to limit RPM. It can and should be done electronically within the ESC, or an external device. Not changeable by anyone. Will someone try defeat it, probably. Will they get caught, yes. When one car goes faster than everyone else down the straight, check it for conformity, if the RPM exceeds the limit, they are DQ'd.
The hard part for some will be the psychological part of not having a car that goes faster than someone else down the straight. I look at the run down the straight, as brief as it is, to reset myself for the rest of the track. I ran a car recently that was getting eaten alive down the straight, but I had the same lap times as my competitors. If someone wants to go for straight line bragging rights, try drag racing. I have done that. Can be an enjoyable form of racing as well.
Some have suggested going sensor-less, the only problem seems to be that with higher winds cogging is an issue, making drivability not good, so unless that can be solved, not a good option.
Again, limiting RPM will allow all the cool timing technology to still be used, its there use it, to tune for better punch, if thats what you like, or whatever you use to make you go around the track faster, but at a prescribed top speed for that class.
10-15-2011, 01:27 PM
#137
Tech Fanatic
Till we get to the point where new blinky esc's are being released more often, then it becomes speedo of the week. Technology doesn't slow down just because people are afraid of it. You can't see the potential for "Our new blinky ESC is faster than all the other blinky ESC's on the market" Trust me it will come. This is racing, and as much as we'd like everything to be exactly the same it never will be........
Yeah this won't work either...And what I mean is that tech needs to be more strict not less. Hara was running software in Super Stock in Vegas that no one else could get in a 17.5 spec class. I was told it just fixed a couple of feel issues with the Tekin, well that is the biggest complaint with Tekin, is the feel. In mod sky is the limit, but in a spec classes we need rules and we need them enforced.
No one but the slower guys want a level playing field, but the people at the top and the manufactures don't want fair; they want wins!
It was already crazy to have so many national and world champions in a 17.5 spec class. It would be nice to know that I am competing with the best in the world in a super stock class and that I have a chance to compete with them because we are all running the same hardware and software. I know that I am not gonna beat Hara, but I am certainly not going to beat him when he is being feed better motors, better batteries and software that no one else can get. Do world champions really need more of an advantage in a spec class?
In my opinion at these nation or world class events we need non-timing spec classes with handout motor. Timing speed controls have really not helped getting people to the tracks. Our local track has seen an increase since we moved to non-timing stock classes and this is the case at almost every track in the US.
No one but the slower guys want a level playing field, but the people at the top and the manufactures don't want fair; they want wins!
It was already crazy to have so many national and world champions in a 17.5 spec class. It would be nice to know that I am competing with the best in the world in a super stock class and that I have a chance to compete with them because we are all running the same hardware and software. I know that I am not gonna beat Hara, but I am certainly not going to beat him when he is being feed better motors, better batteries and software that no one else can get. Do world champions really need more of an advantage in a spec class?
In my opinion at these nation or world class events we need non-timing spec classes with handout motor. Timing speed controls have really not helped getting people to the tracks. Our local track has seen an increase since we moved to non-timing stock classes and this is the case at almost every track in the US.
The point about the IIC and the other big races is that they allow a lot of people who can never qualify for a Worlds or other big international race to get to race with and watch the best drivers in the World. We all know we aren't going to beat them, but we all like to try! It doesn't matter what gear they run, does it?
The fixed-rpm debate is rubbish. Power = torque x revs, so if you limit the revs then you get more torque and you have a faster motor. That's what the full-size racing engines do, and despite the fixed rpm in F1 and WTC, certain engines are much better than others. Fixed gear ratios are also a non-debate - simply change the diameter of the wheels/tyres you use and you change the ratio. It is of course useless for all three pan classes that use foams...
Why do people come up with these ideas without spending more than two milliseconds thinking them through?
The blinky thing will run its course eventually when people get fed up with buying more and more motors to get one that works properly. At some point someone will agree that 17.5 is Stock, 13.5 is SuperStock and Mod is Mod - all with open timing - and then we will get back to the low costs of BL we had a couple of years back.
10-15-2011, 05:51 PM
#138
You think Tekin was the only manufacture in the Open class that had a supposed different software? How many LRP guys blew up motors last week? Ever wonder why? How long did LRP have 4.2 and 4.4 software in their speedo's before it was released to the public.....Long before I can promise you that. A LOT longer than tekin runs software in OPEN classes before releasing it...that I know for a fact!
Racing is racing. In the end it comes down to who hits the least amount of shit on the track and whos car carries the most corner speed. Always has always will. Ive never been to race where after we said "wow that guy only won because he had so much rip". Its always "that guys car was awesome" or "That guy drove perfect and didnt hit anything". The internet is the only place we start hearing guys bitch about speedo software.
And this whole post isnt directed at you Art. Just the first part about the software was.
EA
Racing is racing. In the end it comes down to who hits the least amount of shit on the track and whos car carries the most corner speed. Always has always will. Ive never been to race where after we said "wow that guy only won because he had so much rip". Its always "that guys car was awesome" or "That guy drove perfect and didnt hit anything". The internet is the only place we start hearing guys bitch about speedo software.
And this whole post isnt directed at you Art. Just the first part about the software was.
EA
Oh, I am not offended at all. I do not disagree with you and I am sure that all of the teams had some new software and hardware they were testing. I was just not personally aware of what the other teams were doing. The point I was trying to make (which I did pretty terribly) was that in spec classes tech'ing software is as important or more important then the hardware it is contained in.
I might be crazy, but I am not disillusioned. I do not for a nano second think that the reason why Hara won was because he was running super secret software (Which I am sure is not that different). I know the reason why the top drivers win regardless of software, hardware, car etc...It is because they are great drivers and are driving cars that suit their driving style. With all of that said I still want to illusion/appearance that I have a chance against the best drivers in the world. There are not too many other hobbies/sports where you can compete against the best drivers in the world and I love that about R/C. I love going to big races and being elbow to elbow with world and national champions. But, in spec classes we should all have a consistent set of rules that we can be sure everyone is following all of the time, and have the means to verify it.
10-15-2011, 06:18 PM
#139
Would like to hear some thoughts on what is the fastest ESC in blinky/spec mode.
Some say the Tekin RS/RS Pro, others have said the LRP SXX Stock Spec ver. 2, and have also heard that the Viper ESC is right up there. We all know that not all ESC's are built the same, so even in spec mode, there must be some variances.
Would like to hear some thoughts based on experiences. Have a big oval race coming up and want to have the best ESC for it.
Some say the Tekin RS/RS Pro, others have said the LRP SXX Stock Spec ver. 2, and have also heard that the Viper ESC is right up there. We all know that not all ESC's are built the same, so even in spec mode, there must be some variances.
Would like to hear some thoughts based on experiences. Have a big oval race coming up and want to have the best ESC for it.
10-15-2011, 06:45 PM
#140
Whether it's Boosted, Blinky, or Mod, The Complete Package is needed to be successful.
The Complete Package includes things you can't buy, like skill, practice time, the knowledge to know how to set your car up, and what changes to your setup are needed for the conditions at hand.
The Complete Package also includes things you can buy, like motors, batteries, tires, chassis, speed controls, servos, bodies, and tuning option parts.
For every person on here talking about how hard ESC's are to program to run boosted, there is at least 1 thread on this same forum dedicated to tuning them.
For every person on here talking about how drivers set their cars up better when they run blinky, I would like to see race results from the event where a boosted driver won solely on horsepower.
For every person talking about how they don't want to have to cart a laptop to the track, there must have been 200 drivers at the IIC running boosted if only the boosted guys bring computers to the race, if event pictures can be trusted.
You want to really save onroad? Get out of this false mentality that racing is fair.
I've been racing far too long [not just RC] to believe the BS that unless everyone is slowed down, victory, or even just a good finish is outside your grasp. For every person spending their way to the front, there's another working harder on their setup and putting laps on their car to LEARN how to get to the front, while spending LESS money SMARTER.
Are electric racers really such prima-donna's that tuning the power plant AND the car is too complicated? Doesn't seem to affect the nitro guys much, nobody there is screaming to mandate locked carb needles.
While I will fight to race Boosted, whenever, wherever I can, for as long as I can, I have, and will continue to suggest newcomers start in Blinky. Touring cars are complicated, and setup will always been a huge portion of The Complete Package, and learning how to gear properly can be difficult enough without throwing in ESC tuning on top of that. There's only so many things you can experiment with effectively in a day.
HOWEVER, RC racers are, by nature, tinkerers. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone that calls themselves anything higher than a novice racer would want any adjustment TAKEN AWAY.
In fact, I've brought in a new TC racer this season who's been running RCGT fairly well, and have 2 other buddies that are thinking of starting this winter, who I have also suggested start in a blinky class. They all WANT to race boosted when they feel they're ready, after watching a few local Boosted mains.
Blinky started as a way to get a slower class on the books that would let newer guys learn to tune their car. The natural progression everyone should strive to, IMO, is Mod. Blinky 13.5 is not an intermediate class to mod, and absolutely SUCKS as a Super Stock formula. Boosted 17.5 has the corner rip and throttle control required to almost get fully prepared for mod, while being around the same speed as Blinky 13.5.
The perception that "stock" racing is level and fair has never been true, and trying to regulate it into being true is about as effective as trying to get Congress to stop spending money like a teenager with their parent's credit card.
Bottom line is, until you figure out how to get The Complete Package for yourself, no amount of rule changes are going to get you to the top of the results.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WE ARE RACING. By definition it is a contest of speed. When you combine competition and speed, people will always strive to get faster [hence all the "Which ESC/Motor/Battery is best for Blinky" threads]. If you want to race, figure out how to go fast. If you want something easy to drive, get a soapbox racer.
The Complete Package includes things you can't buy, like skill, practice time, the knowledge to know how to set your car up, and what changes to your setup are needed for the conditions at hand.
The Complete Package also includes things you can buy, like motors, batteries, tires, chassis, speed controls, servos, bodies, and tuning option parts.
For every person on here talking about how hard ESC's are to program to run boosted, there is at least 1 thread on this same forum dedicated to tuning them.
For every person on here talking about how drivers set their cars up better when they run blinky, I would like to see race results from the event where a boosted driver won solely on horsepower.
For every person talking about how they don't want to have to cart a laptop to the track, there must have been 200 drivers at the IIC running boosted if only the boosted guys bring computers to the race, if event pictures can be trusted.
You want to really save onroad? Get out of this false mentality that racing is fair.
I've been racing far too long [not just RC] to believe the BS that unless everyone is slowed down, victory, or even just a good finish is outside your grasp. For every person spending their way to the front, there's another working harder on their setup and putting laps on their car to LEARN how to get to the front, while spending LESS money SMARTER.
Are electric racers really such prima-donna's that tuning the power plant AND the car is too complicated? Doesn't seem to affect the nitro guys much, nobody there is screaming to mandate locked carb needles.
While I will fight to race Boosted, whenever, wherever I can, for as long as I can, I have, and will continue to suggest newcomers start in Blinky. Touring cars are complicated, and setup will always been a huge portion of The Complete Package, and learning how to gear properly can be difficult enough without throwing in ESC tuning on top of that. There's only so many things you can experiment with effectively in a day.
HOWEVER, RC racers are, by nature, tinkerers. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone that calls themselves anything higher than a novice racer would want any adjustment TAKEN AWAY.
In fact, I've brought in a new TC racer this season who's been running RCGT fairly well, and have 2 other buddies that are thinking of starting this winter, who I have also suggested start in a blinky class. They all WANT to race boosted when they feel they're ready, after watching a few local Boosted mains.
Blinky started as a way to get a slower class on the books that would let newer guys learn to tune their car. The natural progression everyone should strive to, IMO, is Mod. Blinky 13.5 is not an intermediate class to mod, and absolutely SUCKS as a Super Stock formula. Boosted 17.5 has the corner rip and throttle control required to almost get fully prepared for mod, while being around the same speed as Blinky 13.5.
The perception that "stock" racing is level and fair has never been true, and trying to regulate it into being true is about as effective as trying to get Congress to stop spending money like a teenager with their parent's credit card.
Bottom line is, until you figure out how to get The Complete Package for yourself, no amount of rule changes are going to get you to the top of the results.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WE ARE RACING. By definition it is a contest of speed. When you combine competition and speed, people will always strive to get faster [hence all the "Which ESC/Motor/Battery is best for Blinky" threads]. If you want to race, figure out how to go fast. If you want something easy to drive, get a soapbox racer.
10-15-2011, 07:22 PM
#141
Whether it's Boosted, Blinky, or Mod, The Complete Package is needed to be successful.
The Complete Package includes things you can't buy, like skill, practice time, the knowledge to know how to set your car up, and what changes to your setup are needed for the conditions at hand.
The Complete Package also includes things you can buy, like motors, batteries, tires, chassis, speed controls, servos, bodies, and tuning option parts.
For every person on here talking about how hard ESC's are to program to run boosted, there is at least 1 thread on this same forum dedicated to tuning them.
For every person on here talking about how drivers set their cars up better when they run blinky, I would like to see race results from the event where a boosted driver won solely on horsepower.
For every person talking about how they don't want to have to cart a laptop to the track, there must have been 200 drivers at the IIC running boosted if only the boosted guys bring computers to the race, if event pictures can be trusted.
You want to really save onroad? Get out of this false mentality that racing is fair.
I've been racing far too long [not just RC] to believe the BS that unless everyone is slowed down, victory, or even just a good finish is outside your grasp. For every person spending their way to the front, there's another working harder on their setup and putting laps on their car to LEARN how to get to the front, while spending LESS money SMARTER.
Are electric racers really such prima-donna's that tuning the power plant AND the car is too complicated? Doesn't seem to affect the nitro guys much, nobody there is screaming to mandate locked carb needles.
While I will fight to race Boosted, whenever, wherever I can, for as long as I can, I have, and will continue to suggest newcomers start in Blinky. Touring cars are complicated, and setup will always been a huge portion of The Complete Package, and learning how to gear properly can be difficult enough without throwing in ESC tuning on top of that. There's only so many things you can experiment with effectively in a day.
HOWEVER, RC racers are, by nature, tinkerers. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone that calls themselves anything higher than a novice racer would want any adjustment TAKEN AWAY.
In fact, I've brought in a new TC racer this season who's been running RCGT fairly well, and have 2 other buddies that are thinking of starting this winter, who I have also suggested start in a blinky class. They all WANT to race boosted when they feel they're ready, after watching a few local Boosted mains.
Blinky started as a way to get a slower class on the books that would let newer guys learn to tune their car. The natural progression everyone should strive to, IMO, is Mod. Blinky 13.5 is not an intermediate class to mod, and absolutely SUCKS as a Super Stock formula. Boosted 17.5 has the corner rip and throttle control required to almost get fully prepared for mod, while being around the same speed as Blinky 13.5.
The perception that "stock" racing is level and fair has never been true, and trying to regulate it into being true is about as effective as trying to get Congress to stop spending money like a teenager with their parent's credit card.
Bottom line is, until you figure out how to get The Complete Package for yourself, no amount of rule changes are going to get you to the top of the results.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WE ARE RACING. By definition it is a contest of speed. When you combine competition and speed, people will always strive to get faster [hence all the "Which ESC/Motor/Battery is best for Blinky" threads]. If you want to race, figure out how to go fast. If you want something easy to drive, get a soapbox racer.
The Complete Package includes things you can't buy, like skill, practice time, the knowledge to know how to set your car up, and what changes to your setup are needed for the conditions at hand.
The Complete Package also includes things you can buy, like motors, batteries, tires, chassis, speed controls, servos, bodies, and tuning option parts.
For every person on here talking about how hard ESC's are to program to run boosted, there is at least 1 thread on this same forum dedicated to tuning them.
For every person on here talking about how drivers set their cars up better when they run blinky, I would like to see race results from the event where a boosted driver won solely on horsepower.
For every person talking about how they don't want to have to cart a laptop to the track, there must have been 200 drivers at the IIC running boosted if only the boosted guys bring computers to the race, if event pictures can be trusted.
You want to really save onroad? Get out of this false mentality that racing is fair.
I've been racing far too long [not just RC] to believe the BS that unless everyone is slowed down, victory, or even just a good finish is outside your grasp. For every person spending their way to the front, there's another working harder on their setup and putting laps on their car to LEARN how to get to the front, while spending LESS money SMARTER.
Are electric racers really such prima-donna's that tuning the power plant AND the car is too complicated? Doesn't seem to affect the nitro guys much, nobody there is screaming to mandate locked carb needles.
While I will fight to race Boosted, whenever, wherever I can, for as long as I can, I have, and will continue to suggest newcomers start in Blinky. Touring cars are complicated, and setup will always been a huge portion of The Complete Package, and learning how to gear properly can be difficult enough without throwing in ESC tuning on top of that. There's only so many things you can experiment with effectively in a day.
HOWEVER, RC racers are, by nature, tinkerers. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone that calls themselves anything higher than a novice racer would want any adjustment TAKEN AWAY.
In fact, I've brought in a new TC racer this season who's been running RCGT fairly well, and have 2 other buddies that are thinking of starting this winter, who I have also suggested start in a blinky class. They all WANT to race boosted when they feel they're ready, after watching a few local Boosted mains.
Blinky started as a way to get a slower class on the books that would let newer guys learn to tune their car. The natural progression everyone should strive to, IMO, is Mod. Blinky 13.5 is not an intermediate class to mod, and absolutely SUCKS as a Super Stock formula. Boosted 17.5 has the corner rip and throttle control required to almost get fully prepared for mod, while being around the same speed as Blinky 13.5.
The perception that "stock" racing is level and fair has never been true, and trying to regulate it into being true is about as effective as trying to get Congress to stop spending money like a teenager with their parent's credit card.
Bottom line is, until you figure out how to get The Complete Package for yourself, no amount of rule changes are going to get you to the top of the results.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: WE ARE RACING. By definition it is a contest of speed. When you combine competition and speed, people will always strive to get faster [hence all the "Which ESC/Motor/Battery is best for Blinky" threads]. If you want to race, figure out how to go fast. If you want something easy to drive, get a soapbox racer.
I agree you need the complete package!
and people will always winge about spec classes on the forums no matter what!
10-15-2011, 08:01 PM
#142
To play devils advocate on a RPM limit... You do that to limit top speed, fine, but it would simply shift the motor of the week contests to finding the most torque. Moderns tc's and 12ths can pretty much put down all the power you can throw at them... And you only have to look at full size LeMan racing where the top petrol and diesel cars have similar total bhp outputs but vastly different torque figures and massively different lap times as a result to see an example of this at work.
Not saying it isn't a potential solution, but it's not the solution.
My personal view is that you should have a suitable entry level class with a slow enough motor, and a blinky speedo, to allow as others have said, new comers to concentrate on other parts of the package. Next step up, keep the same more but boosted.. Then it's mod. Will this ever happen? Probably not..
Not saying it isn't a potential solution, but it's not the solution.
My personal view is that you should have a suitable entry level class with a slow enough motor, and a blinky speedo, to allow as others have said, new comers to concentrate on other parts of the package. Next step up, keep the same more but boosted.. Then it's mod. Will this ever happen? Probably not..
10-15-2011, 09:51 PM
#143
Again, the only solution is an "interactive transponder system" that controls esc , motor, battery etc, and feeds all the info to the race director........It's like having cop on the passenger seat watching your every move!
...lol
10-15-2011, 09:58 PM
#146
Good , we need agent Smith on board , controlling every TC, esc , motor , battery etc..... I know that won't sit well with everybody, but it's " inevitable".......lol.....
10-15-2011, 10:02 PM
#147
Only those who can stand extreme shock will TQ and win...lol
But someone will make some special shock resistant suit and things will be uneven again
10-15-2011, 10:52 PM
#148
Let's leave the cars open but control the drivers...lol If you are detected to be in the zone or have too high a reflexes then you receive shock (via implant) to stay at same pace as everyone else
Only those who can stand extreme shock will TQ and win...lol
But someone will make some special shock resistant suit and things will be uneven again
Only those who can stand extreme shock will TQ and win...lol
But someone will make some special shock resistant suit and things will be uneven again
...lol
10-16-2011, 01:35 AM
#150
It can't come with the new ROAR/EFRA specification for blinky. That details exactly what the firing sequence has to be, and that is all that it can do. There is no way someone can claim their speedo is better than another in blinky from a performance aspect. Well, they can, but it will just be so much BS.
Now we make it about HARDWARE. Higher Quality/More efficient fets, lower resistance assembly. You'll now have TEAM guys running hand assembled, damn near one-off speedos like we had in the brushed days. Someone will always build a better mousetrap, its the nature of ANY motorsport.