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Old 09-15-2011, 03:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
Spacers/shims under on outside of the steering block...lol

Come on guys this is not going to work better than the AE type ft end. No way...lol

Why are we even entertaining this other than to be positive and supportive about a new car

And even after the new lower arm that has movement now that just came out recently from yok and BBI
That front end will work as good as anything else. If anything, it's just more of a pain in the butt adjustment wise.
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Old 09-15-2011, 04:14 PM   #17
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I'm sure it will look like this after you buy the $50 front end option

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Old 09-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #18
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Double wishbone front-ends have been around forever, AE, Delta,and HPI all tried them long ago, and figured out that the weight and complexity far overshadowed ANY advantage offered. The "Old Skool" front-end was still winning big races just four years ago.
With all due respect to "old scholl" what race and what racer won worlds or nat's or eve regionals with that 85'-90' ft end

Not that winning or the highest tech is what 12th is about but I can't believe anybody is going to go faster than the AE ft end that has ruled since the early 90's

Just saying
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:49 PM   #19
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With all due respect to "old scholl" what race and what racer won worlds or nat's or eve regionals with that 85'-90' ft end

Not that winning or the highest tech is what 12th is about but I can't believe anybody is going to go faster than the AE ft end that has ruled since the early 90's

Just saying
Last one I was actually at was a Speedmerchant Rev. 4.5, one-two finish at the 2006 US Indoor Champs. 2005 was Mike Dumas and Jake Pritchard one-two, running Rev 4's with the old school front-end. Add a couple of Snowbirds wins, and a ROAR Nats or two.

And the AE front-end has hardly ruled. The most successful front-end design from a race wins perspective is actually the Trinity Reactive Caster front-end. Between Joel, Cyrul, Blackstock, Doseck and Spashett, that front-end one nearly every Mod carpet race from around '93 till around 2002.

What overwhelming advantages do you believe the new designs offer? Reactive caster isn't always a necessity, especially on HIGH bite tracks. If the car already has enough steering, the other front-ends are just extra weight and maintenance. There is NO front-end on the market that is as easy to build, smooth, or as durable. I say this with confidence, as an individual who has raced 12th scale NON-STOP for 25 years.
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Old 09-16-2011, 12:00 AM   #20
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That front end will work as good as anything else. If anything, it's just more of a pain in the butt adjustment wise.
It's actually easier than the formula or trinity front-ends. Loosen screws, insert shims.........
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Old 09-16-2011, 03:26 AM   #21
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The Trinity front end rocked...essentially the new Speed Merchant front end is the same concept. The reactive caster AE front end was AE's response/version of the Trinity front end. Look at how long Speed Merchant ran the old school front end before their current one came out...and it was still winning races. The beauty of the old school front end was it's simplicity.

Oh ya forgot JJ with that Trinity front end winning...though that was in 1/10th in the EV10 b4 it ever hit the 1/12th car
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:43 AM   #22
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It's actually easier than the formula or trinity front-ends. Loosen screws, insert shims.........
Ride height..blehh
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:34 AM   #23
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Ride height..blehh
The same ride height shims for the newer front ends work, and PSE wedges (if you're lucky enough to have some), will easily sort out caster and camber. If not, card stock works just fine. I believe Bruce's "new" Old School arms are corrected for modern ride height demands, and have the caster and camber settings used most often already manufactured in.

All that being said, I love the CRC Pro-Strut.........
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:41 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Double wishbone front-ends have been around forever, AE, Delta,and HPI all tried them long ago, and figured out that the weight and complexity far overshadowed ANY advantage offered. The "Old Skool" front-end was still winning big races just four years ago.
I remember it's emergence and non-usage. I ran AE early on which had "old school ft end", then the delta with aluminum beam (With potential for massive castor...lol), then the agitator, then AE with reactive castor that Cliff L came up with so I hear what your saying, however I am excited to try the double wishbone front-ends to learn more about these cars and how they work regarding the moving lower arm

Maybe Tamiya has a double wishbone front-end in the works I dunno

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Not to start any arguements here but our double wishbone is lighter than most all of the front ends on the market. It is more complex but weight is not an issue.
I don't see a factor with weight and your ft end looks great dude

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Originally Posted by CypressMidWest View Post
Last one I was actually at was a Speedmerchant Rev. 4.5, one-two finish at the 2006 US Indoor Champs. 2005 was Mike Dumas and Jake Pritchard one-two, running Rev 4's with the old school front-end. Add a couple of Snowbirds wins, and a ROAR Nats or two.

And the AE front-end has hardly ruled. The most successful front-end design from a race wins perspective is actually the Trinity Reactive Caster front-end. Between Joel, Cyrul, Blackstock, Doseck and Spashett, that front-end one nearly every Mod carpet race from around '93 till around 2002.

What overwhelming advantages do you believe the new designs offer? Reactive caster isn't always a necessity, especially on HIGH bite tracks. If the car already has enough steering, the other front-ends are just extra weight and maintenance. There is NO front-end on the market that is as easy to build, smooth, or as durable. I say this with confidence, as an individual who has raced 12th scale NON-STOP for 25 years.
I understand you have massive experience and recollection of what has worked and that the "old school" ft end is still applicable

I get the feeling that the "new" double wishbone will have the ability to allow for more steering in more parts of the track

So high speed corners and low speed I think it have broader range to deal with both situations so an better average overall steering, especially on power, but I'll have to try it myself first

Also the Double wishbone front-ends can work with droop, dive and RC really well which is something 12th can try more to see how it might be an advantage

So from a person with off/on experience for 25 years...lol...I can't have the more broader experience you do but I get a gut feeling these newer ft ends like the BMI will have us going faster and easier to drive at different speeds

I look forward to your response
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Infinite 12th View Post
I remember it's emergence and non-usage. I ran AE early on which had "old school ft end", then the delta with aluminum beam (With potential for massive castor...lol), then the agitator, then AE with reactive castor that Cliff L came up with so I hear what your saying, however I am excited to try the double wishbone front-ends to learn more about these cars and how they work regarding the moving lower arm

Maybe Tamiya has a double wishbone front-end in the works I dunno



I don't see a factor with weight and your ft end looks great dude



I understand you have massive experience and recollection of what has worked and that the "old school" ft end is still applicable

I get the feeling that the "new" double wishbone will have the ability to allow for more steering in more parts of the track

So high speed corners and low speed I think it have broader range to deal with both situations so an better average overall steering, especially on power, but I'll have to try it myself first

Also the Double wishbone front-ends can work with droop, dive and RC really well which is something 12th can try more to see how it might be an advantage

So from a person with off/on experience for 25 years...lol...I can't have the more broader experience you do but I get a gut feeling these newer ft ends like the BMI will have us going faster and easier to drive at different speeds

I look forward to your response
Lot of talk, but not a lot of racing results and feedback...
Can we please start another thread about Front end dynamics, and please keep this thread on topic about the new Tamiya 12th scale

Thanks.
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:11 AM   #26
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Lot of talk, but not a lot of racing results and feedback...
Can we please start another thread about Front end dynamics, and please keep this thread on topic about the new Tamiya 12th scale

Thanks.
Well we all know that things start in the imagination prior to reality so that is what we have here

And why, Tamiya in this thread, is revamping old school was the reason why such dialogue initiated. It is unusual this late in the game with 12th

But an actual thread to talk about Front end dynamics would be radical

Good idea

Here is "another" thread to discuss these interesting topics

I hope the Yokomo and BMI guys, not the too mention the "Old school enthusiasts" will comment or assist in the understanding and/or "actual" racing results and feedback since I cannot afford to purchase multiple cars with multiple front end dynamics, hence why I initiated this conversation..lol
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:45 PM   #27
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Tamiya 12th scale
Suspension geometries, front end dynamics, whatever...I'll just put mine together and run it RBF can tell me what I did wrong if it sucks
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Old 09-16-2011, 01:55 PM   #28
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Suspension geometries, front end dynamics, whatever...I'll just put mine together and run it RBF can tell me what I did wrong if it sucks
Spoken like a true Tamiya Fanatic.
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Old 09-16-2011, 02:40 PM   #29
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Anyone know if it will use the standard 1/12th tires?
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Old 09-16-2011, 05:38 PM   #30
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I may cum out of retirement just to run this.
Any pics of the body? I imagine Tamiya may raise the bar on what's expected of a 1/12th scale body.
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