Boost is Dead
04-21-2011, 07:14 PM
#256
well reading this has good points and bad....here is mine..
for the new guys tryiong to get into onroad, and havent got a clue about boosted,timming, 17.5 stock or 13.5 stock and ect...just run VTA...what?..yep I said it...if you are new to onroad and dont want to give yourself a fat headache....get into VTA and run the USVTA rules...life is good on this side of the fence....learn what you need to learn about all the good things about onroad like setup, driving and having some fun without all the extra....enjoy being able to race against others racers with very similar equipment and not be out done by somebody deep pockets...
and if VTA is to slow, try USGT...just as much fun with a little faster motor...21.5...
this is why I race onroad....I travel to race VTA, cause I never have to worry about none of the BS in TC in any form....
I think that if your club has a track big enough for boosted 17.5 stock...go for it...is it stock?...NO...its open esc, which sounds like mod to me,
just make sure you leave some room for the new guys to have a place to race, rather it be VTA,USGT, or just a novice class. Cause most of you are old, and wont race forever...make room for the new guys trying to get into the door and keep onroad alive and growing
and of course....here is my opinion since I do have a ROAR card...lol
VTA 25.5 USVTA rules
USGT 21.5 USVTA or ROAR
TC Stock 17.5
TC Open 13.5
TC Mod
BTW..our club doubled TC attandance since we went to 17.5 stock on Jaco Blues...and plenty more did as well(95x50 carpet)
everything has a place....your track size will determine that
for the new guys tryiong to get into onroad, and havent got a clue about boosted,timming, 17.5 stock or 13.5 stock and ect...just run VTA...what?..yep I said it...if you are new to onroad and dont want to give yourself a fat headache....get into VTA and run the USVTA rules...life is good on this side of the fence....learn what you need to learn about all the good things about onroad like setup, driving and having some fun without all the extra....enjoy being able to race against others racers with very similar equipment and not be out done by somebody deep pockets...
and if VTA is to slow, try USGT...just as much fun with a little faster motor...21.5...
this is why I race onroad....I travel to race VTA, cause I never have to worry about none of the BS in TC in any form....
I think that if your club has a track big enough for boosted 17.5 stock...go for it...is it stock?...NO...its open esc, which sounds like mod to me,
just make sure you leave some room for the new guys to have a place to race, rather it be VTA,USGT, or just a novice class. Cause most of you are old, and wont race forever...make room for the new guys trying to get into the door and keep onroad alive and growing
and of course....here is my opinion since I do have a ROAR card...lol
VTA 25.5 USVTA rules
USGT 21.5 USVTA or ROAR
TC Stock 17.5
TC Open 13.5
TC Mod
BTW..our club doubled TC attandance since we went to 17.5 stock on Jaco Blues...and plenty more did as well(95x50 carpet)
everything has a place....your track size will determine that
04-21-2011, 07:21 PM
#257
[QUOTE=macdude;9000002]
What we need is consistent rules. Not new rules every year or every time technology changes. That is what will turn people off. Or ROAR officials voicing opinions on threads like these about what racers "need" is enough to make me never attend another ROAR event. I like racing.
QUOTE]
Um, you need rules when technology changes, the idea in racing is here are the rules, as RACERS we look for loop holes, and ways to challenge those rules. Not for the purpose to break them, but to gain an advange.
Setting rules for mod is easy, anytime you half to set rules for stock...well now you have your hands full.
EA is correct, it's not ROAR to blame, they are tring to make it fair, and keep an intrest in the sport of "stock" to the best of there knowlage. Again I preach, do your homework, get your roar book, and read it. the idea is to make this as fair as possible, along with accepting new technology into the sport. That in its self is hard to do, or we would still be running brushed motors and 6 cell packs.
What we need is consistent rules. Not new rules every year or every time technology changes. That is what will turn people off. Or ROAR officials voicing opinions on threads like these about what racers "need" is enough to make me never attend another ROAR event. I like racing.
QUOTE]
Um, you need rules when technology changes, the idea in racing is here are the rules, as RACERS we look for loop holes, and ways to challenge those rules. Not for the purpose to break them, but to gain an advange.
Setting rules for mod is easy, anytime you half to set rules for stock...well now you have your hands full.
EA is correct, it's not ROAR to blame, they are tring to make it fair, and keep an intrest in the sport of "stock" to the best of there knowlage. Again I preach, do your homework, get your roar book, and read it. the idea is to make this as fair as possible, along with accepting new technology into the sport. That in its self is hard to do, or we would still be running brushed motors and 6 cell packs.
04-21-2011, 07:24 PM
#258
I don't want a ribbon, I just don't want to have to buy new equipment every time ROAR decides to change the rules.
I've been running the same speedo, and 3 motors for over two years, competitively under the current structure. I'm not blowing up motors due to boost, I'm not melting speed controls. And I'm having a good time because I actually enjoy the challenge of tuning things.
I've been running the same speedo, and 3 motors for over two years, competitively under the current structure. I'm not blowing up motors due to boost, I'm not melting speed controls. And I'm having a good time because I actually enjoy the challenge of tuning things.
the complaints about cost must have been from someone deadset against using the same speedo as you!
04-21-2011, 07:34 PM
#259
out done by somebody deep pockets
I hate this phrase Darkside...I do, I get it, and understand what you are saying, I just refuse to believe it. I think the speedo's now, and the lipos have GREATLY helped this, along with the brushless motors. It is way closer now than before.
The gap between "Mr. $$" and "Mr. Broke as a Joke) is closed. If you do your homework before you buy, like asking questions and paying attention to what others are doing you can get rolling pretty cheap, and if you can setup and drive, you are in the ballgame. I think this year between me and seaball we have purchased:
6 lipos
6 motors, 3- Duo 3's and 3 LRP's 17.5's
we sold off 3 motors, and now we just have the 3 between 2 of us. Back in the brushed, and NIMH days....20+ packs a season each...and about the same in motors...along with brushes, and other whatnots.
Next season, same plan, but cut in half:
4 new lipos, for the 2 of us, and we will sell off 4 old ones.
4 new motors, (whatever the new one's are) and sell of 1 old one.
Something along those lines. Back in the day you could not sell off the old stuff because it was destroyed, you ran motors till they caught fire, or the com exploded on the cutter, and packs....ran them till they pop....
In fact on this notion alone, it's even cheaper to get into, finding solid used equipment, at a great discounted price.
I hate this phrase Darkside...I do, I get it, and understand what you are saying, I just refuse to believe it. I think the speedo's now, and the lipos have GREATLY helped this, along with the brushless motors. It is way closer now than before.
The gap between "Mr. $$" and "Mr. Broke as a Joke) is closed. If you do your homework before you buy, like asking questions and paying attention to what others are doing you can get rolling pretty cheap, and if you can setup and drive, you are in the ballgame. I think this year between me and seaball we have purchased:
6 lipos
6 motors, 3- Duo 3's and 3 LRP's 17.5's
we sold off 3 motors, and now we just have the 3 between 2 of us. Back in the brushed, and NIMH days....20+ packs a season each...and about the same in motors...along with brushes, and other whatnots.
Next season, same plan, but cut in half:
4 new lipos, for the 2 of us, and we will sell off 4 old ones.
4 new motors, (whatever the new one's are) and sell of 1 old one.
Something along those lines. Back in the day you could not sell off the old stuff because it was destroyed, you ran motors till they caught fire, or the com exploded on the cutter, and packs....ran them till they pop....
In fact on this notion alone, it's even cheaper to get into, finding solid used equipment, at a great discounted price.
04-21-2011, 07:49 PM
#260
Blinky classes are necessary for any type of electric discipline to survive on or off road.
The "slowest" class at my local track when I picked 1/12 back up was 17.5 with boost being allowed. If I was a complete beginner (which I looked like anyway) I would have sold my equipment after the first two races trying to figure out what I needed to do to keep up let alone win. Had it not been for a few very helpful fast guys I would have been done anyway.
Now we have a 17.5 "Cirtix" (non-boost), 13.5 w/boost and mod classes. I jumped from 17.5 to Mod and now can focus on my driving rather than my programming and tire management/gearing to make sure my timing stays where it was programmed to be.
The "slowest" class at my local track when I picked 1/12 back up was 17.5 with boost being allowed. If I was a complete beginner (which I looked like anyway) I would have sold my equipment after the first two races trying to figure out what I needed to do to keep up let alone win. Had it not been for a few very helpful fast guys I would have been done anyway.
Now we have a 17.5 "Cirtix" (non-boost), 13.5 w/boost and mod classes. I jumped from 17.5 to Mod and now can focus on my driving rather than my programming and tire management/gearing to make sure my timing stays where it was programmed to be.
sorry but the other quote above does indeed sound like someone that knows best how to retain new blood. i didn't respond to this initially because i was trying to ignore this thread, but i can't.
the attempt is made to assert that any help from more experienced participants should be unnecesary for a newcomer. this is a tall order indeed.
no matter what endeavor, a less experienced participant can benefit from the help/advice etc of a more experienced participant. one might only learn what not to do, but you will learn something and likely progress more rapidly than doing it on your own without asking for directions. it is hard to see how this can be avoided with more or less regulatory changes.
04-21-2011, 07:57 PM
#262
Eric,
sorry but the other quote above does indeed sound like someone that knows best how to retain new blood. i didn't respond to this initially because i was trying to ignore this thread, but i can't.
the attempt is made to assert that any help from more experienced participants should be unnecesary for a newcomer. this is a tall order indeed.
no matter what endeavor, a less experienced participant can benefit from the help/advice etc of a more experienced participant. one might only learn what not to do, but you will learn something and likely progress more rapidly than doing it on your own without asking for directions. it is hard to see how this can be avoided with more or less regulatory changes.
sorry but the other quote above does indeed sound like someone that knows best how to retain new blood. i didn't respond to this initially because i was trying to ignore this thread, but i can't.
the attempt is made to assert that any help from more experienced participants should be unnecesary for a newcomer. this is a tall order indeed.
no matter what endeavor, a less experienced participant can benefit from the help/advice etc of a more experienced participant. one might only learn what not to do, but you will learn something and likely progress more rapidly than doing it on your own without asking for directions. it is hard to see how this can be avoided with more or less regulatory changes.
To me the slowest (Beginer, rookie, sportsman, etc) class should be numbed down (few tire options, speedo options, motor options, etc) enough so that guys mainly just have to concentrate on driving, learning to drive and learning how to set their cars up properly to prepare themselves to move up to the next faster class.
If the experienced racers dont help the new guys the new guys wont keep coming back and will move on to other hobbies. If a new kid shows up at the track to race I would encourage the more experienced guys to go over and talk to the new guy AND his parents. Not only will it help the kid but it will also reassure the parents that their kid is doing something that is fun and not associated with bad things.
EA
04-21-2011, 07:58 PM
#263
Personally I think onroad died down when Short Course racing blew up. Trackside was brought up as a perfect example. Scotty had to cater to what the customer's demanded........dirt!
I'm not an onroad racer by nature. However I've been to plenty of large events and have been there to watch it all. The fast will always be fast, the slow will always be well......slow.
I honestly think the cars are simply over the head of the newbie. There are enough adjustments to confuse most real engineers let alone a new person entering the hobby. Granted they "should" learn but society today wants instant gratification, at least at first. Currently onroad doesn't offer this type of class. This is why Short Course blew up. You "can" get a Traxxas and bump around with 10 other cars on the track and have FUN! Bumping into each other wasn't a cardinal sin in this class, and the trucks are pretty durable. This was NOT intimidating to the new racer and the people that may have been watching the event/race thinking about getting into it. How many times have you walked off the drivers stand laughing your ars off because of all the "bumping" in the race?
Onroad racing needs a "platform" such as this to bring in the newbies and allow the class to grow. THIS is the class that should have restrictions like NT esc's, locked motors,etc. Give the new racers something simple to work on, something durable to drive, and that looks realistic. VTA is pretty close with the exception of allowing $600 chassis compete in the class. I'd personally hoped WGT would take this position as the larger pan cars are fairly simply and carry the larger "semi" scale looking bodies(at least at first
).
Today's new customer is expecting top notch customer service, extended support, and long term usage from their product. Brushless started this "thought" process and lipos pushed it even further. Todays cars can run for 20+ minutes on a single battery with little to no wear to the powertrain. This was unheard of in the brushed/round cell days.
I understand the need for a NT class with a slower powertrain to control the speeds for the new drivers. Blinky esc's that can be updated/programmed at a later date to compete in the "next" class means that the customer can purchase their system ONCE. It will grow with them as they also grow into the hobby. This means they can extend their dollar in the hobby and possible get further in it.
Like it or not today's brushless esc's and motors are no longer considered by today's RC market as disposable or wear items. Today's users have learned that these items require little to no maintenance. They're expecting to purchase an esc to be around for years to come. Today's technology makes this possible.
Would anyone have purchased an Iphone knowing they would have to purchase another in 3 months simply because of a new feature or software update came out? I doubt it....
I'm not an onroad racer by nature. However I've been to plenty of large events and have been there to watch it all. The fast will always be fast, the slow will always be well......slow.
I honestly think the cars are simply over the head of the newbie. There are enough adjustments to confuse most real engineers let alone a new person entering the hobby. Granted they "should" learn but society today wants instant gratification, at least at first. Currently onroad doesn't offer this type of class. This is why Short Course blew up. You "can" get a Traxxas and bump around with 10 other cars on the track and have FUN! Bumping into each other wasn't a cardinal sin in this class, and the trucks are pretty durable. This was NOT intimidating to the new racer and the people that may have been watching the event/race thinking about getting into it. How many times have you walked off the drivers stand laughing your ars off because of all the "bumping" in the race?
Onroad racing needs a "platform" such as this to bring in the newbies and allow the class to grow. THIS is the class that should have restrictions like NT esc's, locked motors,etc. Give the new racers something simple to work on, something durable to drive, and that looks realistic. VTA is pretty close with the exception of allowing $600 chassis compete in the class. I'd personally hoped WGT would take this position as the larger pan cars are fairly simply and carry the larger "semi" scale looking bodies(at least at first
).Today's new customer is expecting top notch customer service, extended support, and long term usage from their product. Brushless started this "thought" process and lipos pushed it even further. Todays cars can run for 20+ minutes on a single battery with little to no wear to the powertrain. This was unheard of in the brushed/round cell days.
I understand the need for a NT class with a slower powertrain to control the speeds for the new drivers. Blinky esc's that can be updated/programmed at a later date to compete in the "next" class means that the customer can purchase their system ONCE. It will grow with them as they also grow into the hobby. This means they can extend their dollar in the hobby and possible get further in it.
Like it or not today's brushless esc's and motors are no longer considered by today's RC market as disposable or wear items. Today's users have learned that these items require little to no maintenance. They're expecting to purchase an esc to be around for years to come. Today's technology makes this possible.
Would anyone have purchased an Iphone knowing they would have to purchase another in 3 months simply because of a new feature or software update came out? I doubt it....
04-21-2011, 08:20 PM
#265
Peter has you there Randy.....
Customers have been trained, new is better....
Customers have been trained, new is better....
04-21-2011, 08:25 PM
#266
If this thread was 90% on the NT side, or ROAR had already made their decision, I could understand Robs comment of “If it bothers you that much don't race”. That works for him in the USVTA thread where he is King, but here that may not be the best way to include different points of view and find an answer.
Too funny, you are surprised when someone else ‘gets it’ and agrees with you. You make my case that perhaps you do not represent the majority and you are just one of the opinions to be considered.
One of the many that ‘get it’ a little differently and have spoke up in this thread with valid points. I know, they suck and should just go away if they do not like it. That whole way of thinking is wrong on so many levels.
We have had our differences on what i think is the best path for the USVTA, but I have never wanted bad things for your business. In fact I own 3 Tekin speed controls and a tekin BL motor. If you put out an esc that fits the parameters for Trans Am, it would be approved post haste.
04-21-2011, 08:51 PM
#267
Certainly there isn't anything wrong with blinky mode, but does *every* non-Mod class need to use it? How many beginner classes does on-road need? ROAR came up with Sportsman (21.5 blinky). Shouldn't that be sufficient for the beginner class? Why do we need blinky mode in 1s pan car classes? I've heard that WGT will be going to blinky mode. Is this true, or a rumor?
As far as a Slash for on-road, HPI is close with their Flux 2 car, but then they stuck a motor in it that isn't legal for any existing class. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Sportsman and USVTA to be the same class?
EA - Who on the ROAR ExComm actually races? Who on it races electric on-road?
As far as a Slash for on-road, HPI is close with their Flux 2 car, but then they stuck a motor in it that isn't legal for any existing class. Wouldn't it make the most sense for Sportsman and USVTA to be the same class?
EA - Who on the ROAR ExComm actually races? Who on it races electric on-road?
04-21-2011, 09:03 PM
#268
04-21-2011, 09:38 PM
#270
Tech Addict
Ive only been racing for a year but I cant see what the problem is (Im not in the USA though, so not sure whats going on over there)
You have a stock motor/spec class for beginners and experienced racers who wont/cant spend the big $$$$$$ . Keep it simple & cheap.
Have a MOD class for those who want to race at the pointy end. If you want to race the fastest,highest spec class then dont complain about spending big $$$$ & constant upgrades.
Lastly, have a class thats somewhere in-between= is the the race class no one can agree on ???
Is the problem that there has to be a compromise, a middle ground. Being a compromise means no-ones 100% happy ??
You have a stock motor/spec class for beginners and experienced racers who wont/cant spend the big $$$$$$ . Keep it simple & cheap.
Have a MOD class for those who want to race at the pointy end. If you want to race the fastest,highest spec class then dont complain about spending big $$$$ & constant upgrades.
Lastly, have a class thats somewhere in-between= is the the race class no one can agree on ???
Is the problem that there has to be a compromise, a middle ground. Being a compromise means no-ones 100% happy ??