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Old 10-16-2013, 07:40 PM   #11881
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YOU GOT TO DO YOUR RESEARCH ON TOP OF LISTENING TO OTHER'S ADVICE, AND TRY THEM ALL OUT IN PRACTICE !
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:26 PM   #11882
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Don't worry too much Desert... Once your setup is there you will know it.... It took me five tc4s, eight years, countless failures, Rc crew chief videos(no longer available), and lots of Rctech heat(suspensions), to find a setup that works for me, with room to grow..... Be patient, and have fun...
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Old 10-16-2013, 09:21 PM   #11883
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Hope this helps... i have raced at 3 IIC's and can tell you i have never had issues traction rolling at any of the events... if that helps my credibility at all lol... ...

FRONT-Shocks: 35 weight oil, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 20lb/inch spring, mounted outer hole on the arm, second to innermost hole on shock tower.
REAR-30 weight, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 17lb/inch spring, outer hole on the arm, inner hole on the tower.

First off 20lb/17lb is pretty stiff. With cars weighing less these days hardly anyone goes over 17lb springs and in most cases the setups that are going fast are using 12-14lb springs. That being said 30/35 wt is great for 12-14lb springs but for 17-20lb springs at the very least you want to be at 40/45 wt if not 50 wt in front.

As far as mounting location outside on the arm is usually good but the tower locations in my experience with a spool you want the wheel rate higher in the rear which means the rear shock should be mounted at least 1 hole out with respect to the front arm... so if you are mounting on the 2nd from inner for the front the rear should start at 3rd from the inside and tune from there.

FRONT-Links: middle hole of three on the tower, long link.
REAR-Link: long link, lowest mounting point on the tower.

generally the TC4 likes to have a shorter front link than the rear and i always run the front link parallel to the arm and the rear link higher at the hub. This has less camber gain on the front tires and more for the rear... just seems to work...

FRONT-Alignment: zero toe, 0.5 degree camber
REAR-Alignment: 2.5 degree toe in, 1 degree camber.

This is probably good but i would have tried running 1 front also if not have tried 1.5 front and rear...

FRONT-Droop: 1.5mm
REAR-Droop: 1.5mm

Would have tried 1mm front 1.5mm rear, then 1mm front and rear...

Swaybar: Medium
Swaybar: Medium

All else in balance this probably would have been fine and made for a more reactive car left to right... fighting traction would have gone soft/soft...

FRONT-Tires: Glued sidewall, no sauce
REAR-Tires: inner half sauce

probably makes no difference once the tires get some heat in them but i've never run a race where the car doesn't work with full rear sauce and full or half sauced fronts...

looking at you're overall package the culprit was most likely the combination of the springs being too stiff, the laydown position of the shocks, damping too light/soft... and then to top it off the medium bars and droop didn't help either...

Again as you noted suggestions will differ from everyone so the best thing is to pick the ones that make sense to you and try it on the track...
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:02 AM   #11884
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Correct Am03gt..... I hated tuning with shock oil, so I settled with 80wt all around, and tuned everything else... It makes for an easier setup day, but that's me... Let us know what made a huge difference Desert.....
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:51 AM   #11885
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all tuning setups are going to be, to one extent or another, individual to the driver. I could barely drive a friend's setup even though "the car was faster than mine" - it was just too much on the edge, but his reflexes were better than mine so he could keep up with it.

Use someone's setup as a starting point.

And then think of weight transfer and balance - your shocks and fluid should balance each other out. Your springs push your wheels down; your shock oil slows down that reaction. That's the roles that each play, and they should be balanced (typically - if it works for bertrandsv87, then it works for him! No criticism allowed - if a setup works for you, then it works for you)

Generally, if you run a really heavy spring, you'll need a heavy oil to balance it - too light and you won't have a functioning shock, the spring will overpower it. Same with a light spring - too heavy an oil and the spring won't really function, the oil will slow it down to the point it won't really function. (piston hole can also affect this - larger hole corresponds with a lighter oil because it will allow more movement of the oil)

And look at where you're losing traction - push on power? weight is transferring backward too quickly or too much - harden your rear just a touch or lighter oil in the front to keep those front wheels down. Spin on entry? weight is transferring forward too quickly or too much - harden your front just a touch or lighter oil/softer springs in the rear to keep those rear wheels down.

Think things through. A published setup should be a base, then adjust from there to fit your style of driving. Everyone's different.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:45 AM   #11886
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This is the most polite way I can explain why this is a pointless discussion:

1) I had never before and probably never will again run on that sort of grip. All discussion on how to make the car run better on it is useless. My local track could only dream of having half this grip so any tuning changes I make between now and maybe the Mile High Indoor Champs will be useless for weekend racing. Next year there will be totally different grip, and I will probably be running a different car anyway. Maybe I'll run my Losi, maybe a totally new car, or even this one again, I don't know.

2) Despite assertions and ill-informed commentary, the car was not over-sprung. It started out very soft, 17 front, 13 rear, (both on the inner hole on the arm) with the soft swaybars, and I stiffened it progressively over the week, going up in oil as well, to combat chassis drag. Not one post seems to understand this part. Unless the proper way to race a touring car is with the chassis dragging on the rug, then the car was still slightly under-sprung in its final form.

3) I accept that my alignment/shock position/other stuff was sub optimal. I made those changes on the suggestion of my Xray touring car tuning help book, which stated in the event of rubber tire traction roll do X Y and Z. Knowing I would have no practice session to test in, I made them on faith. The car and I got better, but would have needed a few battery packs of just me and the track to be 'good'.

Basically YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. The race is over, I finished somewhere in the middle. End of story.
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:03 PM   #11887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
Basically YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. The race is over, I finished somewhere in the middle. End of story.
You said you were open to suggestions in the previous post where you posted your setup. I think everyone who posted anything was only suggesting ways they would start dealing with traction roll.

Paul Lemieux posted yesterday that he was ok with a car dragging the chassis as long as it handled well here: http://www.rctech.net/forum/12637296-post2462.html
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:37 PM   #11888
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Bench racing? What's that?!?!
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Old 10-17-2013, 12:50 PM   #11889
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Knowing what to do in all grip situations is more important than winning One race !!!
Also, for the fifteenth time, your Car dragging was caused by the wrong droop settings, not because it did not have stiff enough springs !!!
Also, Xray book to setup a tc4 is probably not recommended since they are two completely different designs... Orange & Blue don't mix !!!
Even if you switch to another Car, you will still have to learn how to deal with grip changes, and changing cars is not the solution !!!
The tc4 is very responsive to positive changes: I knocked down two seconds Off my laptimes just by changing my tire cleaner !!! Don't give up !!! Those who have no patience NEVER achieve anything in their lives !!!!
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:52 AM   #11890
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Just for future reference take a look at the cars of the fast guys at any event, typically they all drag the rear corners of the chassis in an elongated "V" shape. Depending on the width of the chassis and the particular setup this can envelope the entire side edge of the chassis...

Based on the geometry of touring cars at least from 2005 ish (TC4 era) to now this has been the case. On asphalt all my cars wear in this "V" in the form of scratches and carbon wearing down on carpet it's a nice thick band of tire goo that I wipe off with motor spray after every run... even in a VTA car with closer to 6mm ride height on parking lot surfaces I wear the rear of the chassis.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:34 AM   #11891
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Wondering with all the issues of scrubbing due to chassis hitting the ground. Could be put something on the chassis to help it slide rather than grab the track? silicone coating or something?

Just throwing that out there
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:42 AM   #11892
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Maybe some teflon based spray, but motor spray after every run works for me too.... Carpet is not a hard surface, and it will give under tire pressure ,allowing the chassis to rub incessantly at normal rideheight...
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:08 AM   #11893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
This is the most polite way I can explain why this is a pointless discussion:..........



Basically YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME. The race is over, I finished somewhere in the middle. End of story.
Perhaps the discussion will help others. Sometimes that happens.
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Old 10-19-2013, 07:54 PM   #11894
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It was certainly enlightening to me.... It showed me the other tuning possibilities of the tc4.......
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Old 10-19-2013, 10:10 PM   #11895
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I had a lot of fun racing my VTA TC4 on Friday. I was battling a TB-04 the entire race. I finished 2nd, but at least the top 2 cars were shaft drive & tub chassis. I did "win" fastest lap though...lol.
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