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Old 10-15-2013, 08:20 PM   #11866
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Okay, I'll see if you guys are geniuses and I'm clueless, my setup was as such:

Front Suspension:

Shocks: 35 weight oil, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 20lb/inch spring, mounted outer hole on the arm, second to innermost hole on shock tower.
Links: middle hole of three on the tower, long link.
Alignment: zero toe, 0.5 degree camber
Droop: 1.5mm
Swaybar: Medium
Bump-steer: none
Diff: Spool
Front Tires: Glued sidewall, no sauce


Rear Suspension:
Shocks: 30 weight, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 17lb/inch spring, outer hole on the arm, inner hole on the tower.
Link: long link, lowest mounting point on the tower.
Alignment: 2.5 degree toe in, 1 degree camber.
Droop: 1.5mm
Swaybar: Medium
Diff: medium-loose
Tires: inner half sauce

Gear: 3.92:1, timing advanced to the + mark on the ORCA handout motor. Temp 145 degrees F.

That's it in a nutshell, open to suggestions.

Oh yeah, if anybody tells me that more droop would solve the traction-roll problem, just keep that shit to yourself. I tried it and the car would roll over at walking speed with more droop. As it was, the car showed me the underside of the inside front tire every go round of the sweeper.

Really overall the traction roll was what kept me from ever being comfortable with the car. I run on comparatively VERY low traction and with every turn of the wheel I was conscious of how the car would turn over if I entered a corner with steam and tried to flick the car around as I would at my home track. This really wasn't fair to the car, I just drove gingerly, but at least I wasn;t the only one. The car is not a full second slower than the competition, I was on that grip.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:37 PM   #11867
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The first thing I would try is less rear toe, as far down as even zero. Yes that will make the rear of the car super loose but then you can turn the dual rate down on your radio to calm the car back down. Having the rear of the car loose enough that you have the steering turned down really helps with traction roll because you can't turn the wheels far enough to really dig into the carpet and roll.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:41 PM   #11868
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By the time you buy enough upgrades to be on par. You could have invested in a tc6.1 or xray. The tc4 is what it is. A very good chassis with limits. If you are wanting to run anything outside vta or gt...I would go with a newer chassis.

Not saying it can't cut it in 17.5 or others, but look forward to spending extra dollars to get it there.

They beauty of AE in bringing the tc4 club out was for vta and gt . Due to it winning on a national level.

I like the idea of all the options...but if its going to exceed the price of a newer chassis. ..I don't see a point
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:15 PM   #11869
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Hmm . its weird for you to say it has limits. Sure it might of had limits in its original release yes. But times have changed and there is a lot more knowledge gained about the setup of touring cars since the time the tc4 was not the flagship car. Now if you implement new ideas and realize what you have in front of you you will realize that this car really does have the potential to even be better than the so called new cars. You just can't be narrow minded about it . I have seen these crush the tc6,awesomatix, Schumacher , top and really every new car out there in the hands of some very fast people and here them say they cannot go as fast with the newer cars and this is in mod and stock within the last year. The northwest is home to very talented tc drivers so by no means are these claims against slow drivers. So look at he car more and know that with today's battery technology and motors it has opened up doors to new possibilities with this car. Sure the re release of the tc4 in the club racer aspect would need some work as a lot parts just won't cut it for serious racing but if you put some time and key parts on the car and if it does cost around the price of the newer belt cars. Why is this bad?? Why do you say this car can't compete at the highest levels. Don't think of the club racer when I ask this tho. Lol
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:20 PM   #11870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKSIDE View Post
By the time you buy enough upgrades to be on par. You could have invested in a tc6.1 or xray. The tc4 is what it is. A very good chassis with limits. If you are wanting to run anything outside vta or gt...I would go with a newer chassis.

Not saying it can't cut it in 17.5 or others, but look forward to spending extra dollars to get it there.

They beauty of AE in bringing the tc4 club out was for vta and gt . Due to it winning on a national level.

I like the idea of all the options...but if its going to exceed the price of a newer chassis. ..I don't see a point
I have a TC6.1, and other touring cars, all of which I've managed to make competitive against good competition at my local track. I did this DC4 LE project for the hell of it, and the car was assembled almost entirely with leftover parts aside from the chassis conversion. Money was not my limiting factor in this build, the car has the best of everything I thought would make it better including titanium hardware, Factory Team parts, spool, cardon joints and the like, nearly all of which I had left over from other projects or bought second-hand. For making it fast, that's all in the tune and driver, both of which weren't up to the task of winning last week on the grip. I wouldn't recommend that someone looking to start racing touring cars go this route, but it didn't hurt me any.

The point is, there is no point other than I wanted a shaft drive car. I'm a sucker for weird builds, and this one just appealed to me.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:10 PM   #11871
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Canada is always here to save the day...lol... Thanks in advance Elliot !!!
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I just received my conversion kit today. I will be narrowing the chassis plate and will post pictures when it is done, probably this weekend.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:47 PM   #11872
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What a reactive setup you got there Desert ! How did you drive that Car , and win the Cmain ????
You already know my theory about shock oil, 80wt or nothing, so I won't go there...
Now I run two degree or more front camber not 0.5 degrees that can make the tc4 run on the edge of the tire, causing traction roll... I am sure when the Car leans in a corner, the camber changes due to bearing play, so your camber might have switched to positive camber and kept rolling the Car...
Your droop should be 1mm or so , but with much softer springs 17lb front and 14.5lb rear, with no shims under the arm mounts...
Your swaybar should also be the softest One, black one..... The stiffer ones only cause more traction rolling, and sometimes you can run the Car without swaybars at all....
You also did not mention your rideheight and I must stress that under high grip you need to run a little higher in the front(5.5mm) vs the rear(5mm)...
Also, another trick is to run the newest Tires on the rear only , and the old ones up front...
Also, any throttle expo or acceleration on your radio ???
What body do you run ??? No waxing ???
Are your Tires balanced, lightened, etc ???
What battery/charger combo are you using ??? Thunderpower????
What was your track width and wheelbase ???
I run the shortest possible wheelbase, and 190mm track width.
Without wheel spacers the tc4 is only 187mm up front and 186mm in the rear... That's way too small a track width for high bite carpet...
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:32 AM   #11873
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Also Desert, the Vegas layout was pretty flowy, so 3.7fdr would have been perfect....
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:16 AM   #11874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
Okay, I'll see if you guys are geniuses and I'm clueless, my setup was as such:

Front Suspension:

Shocks: 35 weight oil, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 20lb/inch spring, mounted outer hole on the arm, second to innermost hole on shock tower.
Links: middle hole of three on the tower, long link.
Alignment: zero toe, 0.5 degree camber
Droop: 1.5mm
Swaybar: Medium
Bump-steer: none
Diff: Spool
Front Tires: Glued sidewall, no sauce


Rear Suspension:
Shocks: 30 weight, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 17lb/inch spring, outer hole on the arm, inner hole on the tower.
Link: long link, lowest mounting point on the tower.
Alignment: 2.5 degree toe in, 1 degree camber.
Droop: 1.5mm
Swaybar: Medium
Diff: medium-loose
Tires: inner half sauce

Gear: 3.92:1, timing advanced to the + mark on the ORCA handout motor. Temp 145 degrees F.

That's it in a nutshell, open to suggestions.

Oh yeah, if anybody tells me that more droop would solve the traction-roll problem, just keep that shit to yourself. I tried it and the car would roll over at walking speed with more droop. As it was, the car showed me the underside of the inside front tire every go round of the sweeper.

Really overall the traction roll was what kept me from ever being comfortable with the car. I run on comparatively VERY low traction and with every turn of the wheel I was conscious of how the car would turn over if I entered a corner with steam and tried to flick the car around as I would at my home track. This really wasn't fair to the car, I just drove gingerly, but at least I wasn;t the only one. The car is not a full second slower than the competition, I was on that grip.
The only suggestions I would have is I probably would have ran 45wt fr and 40wt rear. I would have ran my links in the highest position on the tower. And I would have stood my shocks up. When you lay down the shocks they are more progressive but the also give more weight transfer and overall more grip to the end with the most layer down shock. So I would have had the front shocks probably stood all the way up on the tower. And the rear in one hole from the outer most. I understand your camber setting as I was running jaco tires and the tire wasn't getting full contact with my normal 1.5-2.0 so I also started to reduce it. That is if you were running jaco. Everything else looks good. The springs is a tuff call as too stiff would over work the tire and possibly cuase traction roll but too soft could do the same.
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:31 AM   #11875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRat View Post
Okay, I'll see if you guys are geniuses and I'm clueless, my setup was as such:

Front Suspension:

Shocks: 35 weight oil, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 20lb/inch spring, mounted outer hole on the arm, second to innermost hole on shock tower.
Links: middle hole of three on the tower, long link.
Alignment: zero toe, 0.5 degree camber
Droop: 1.5mm
Swaybar: Medium
Bump-steer: none
Diff: Spool
Front Tires: Glued sidewall, no sauce


Rear Suspension:
Shocks: 30 weight, Losi #56 piston, no rebound, soft bladder, 17lb/inch spring, outer hole on the arm, inner hole on the tower.
Link: long link, lowest mounting point on the tower.
Alignment: 2.5 degree toe in, 1 degree camber.
Droop: 1.5mm
Swaybar: Medium
Diff: medium-loose
Tires: inner half sauce

Gear: 3.92:1, timing advanced to the + mark on the ORCA handout motor. Temp 145 degrees F.

That's it in a nutshell, open to suggestions.

Oh yeah, if anybody tells me that more droop would solve the traction-roll problem, just keep that shit to yourself. I tried it and the car would roll over at walking speed with more droop. As it was, the car showed me the underside of the inside front tire every go round of the sweeper.

Really overall the traction roll was what kept me from ever being comfortable with the car. I run on comparatively VERY low traction and with every turn of the wheel I was conscious of how the car would turn over if I entered a corner with steam and tried to flick the car around as I would at my home track. This really wasn't fair to the car, I just drove gingerly, but at least I wasn;t the only one. The car is not a full second slower than the competition, I was on that grip.
Any shims under the suspension arm mounts?

Any shims on the steering rack?

What about the outer ballstud on the rear?

I tend to think you might have been a step too stiff on the springs. Also way back when, a rear shock tower was used in the front to move the shock out especially with the tc3.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:01 PM   #11876
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I also like to run my top suspension links parallel to the ground or a bit higher on the chassis side... The dc4 le did not do bad with such a reactive setup, but that setup does not give the driver confidence at all....
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:13 PM   #11877
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I give up. Harder, softer, more, less, bigger, smaller, faster, slower, thicker, thinner, higher, lower, in, out, up, down, tight, loose, blah blah blah bad advice all of it.

This thread has officially gone full retard.
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:03 PM   #11878
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After talking with some local racers who race at big events, you sometimes have to get the car to roll MORE when traction levels are extremely high. This is to counter the fact that rubber tires won't slide when there is that much traction. You also might have to soften up the suspension.

Some of the things seemed counter-intuitive, but I'll be happy to take advice from someone who recently finished in the top 10 in 17.5 at the 2013 IIC.
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:13 PM   #11879
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Originally Posted by IndyRC_Racer View Post
After talking with some local racers who race at big events, you sometimes have to get the car to roll MORE when traction levels are extremely high. This is to counter the fact that rubber tires won't slide when there is that much traction. You also might have to soften up the suspension.

Some of the things seemed counter-intuitive, but I'll be happy to take advice from someone who recently finished in the top 10 in 17.5 at the 2013 IIC.
This is true, it can and does help in certain situations. However, I submit my dragging the outside of the chassis as evidence that my car was plenty soft. Or that the chassis is too wide, either works for me.
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Old 10-16-2013, 07:36 PM   #11880
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Dragging the outside of your chassis is not only caused by your suspension being too soft. It can be caused by too much droop(1.5mm) allowing the chassis to tilt too much instead of compressing the springs. You needed to lower your droop(0.5mm) while softening up the suspension a bit.... If all of it does not make sense, then get the Rc Crew Chief software and relearn the tc4 setup that way... It's unbeatable !!!
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