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Old 08-24-2010, 04:27 PM   #9751
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Originally Posted by stiltskin View Post
DeeDubYa. You have corrosion on the upper bumper screw. You can't be my friend anymore until you fix that.
That's not his racing screw!
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Old 08-25-2010, 03:23 PM   #9752
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I would try and stay away from the swaybar if you could. You can end up with a faster car if it is setup without one, but that just depends on whats comfortable for you. ...snip...
Excellent response Dave. Thank you for taking the time to write that out. I will look in to these recommendations!
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Old 08-26-2010, 12:10 PM   #9753
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No problem! Just try and post back your findings if ya can. It will help out those that still wheel a Tc4.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:55 PM   #9754
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Default Thanks Dave

Thank you so much,I had not picked up a touring car in over two years and when I did it was a cyclone.A few weeks ago I found out that there was gonna be an electric on road race at a mall in conjunction with a car show and I was dying to run my brand new never raced TC4.I had built it and shelved it for many years but this was'' IT'S'' time.I never raced it because I was saving it for outdoors racing only.I had no clue about the final drive ratio because I did not have access to my library of manuals ....(wife doesn't remember where she put) and I did not want to tear it apart and start counting teeth so I posted here and asked a gearing question. Dave W was nice enough to reply and get me pointed in the right direction. The help he provided me with probably saved me hours of trial and error leg work on my car,he probably kept me from even gearing too high and burning a motor.I had forgotten how fun the tc3 and tc4 where. The only thing I did not use was the associated shocks.(I hate associated shocks so I used cyclone shocks) but the car was hooked up by my ''standards'' and I had as much speed as I could get out of a my old shere with no boost no timing advance.My lipo was a 24c and someone told me I needed more C's but that's for next time. The car would go where I pointed it to and that's all I can ask for. I am thinking of keeping that car for Vintage racing or I might even buy a speedo with timing advance.In the end the Tc4 was my new love all over again.I dont live near an on road track so who knows when I will run it again,but that car gave me joy. Thanks again Dave,Im very happy you are generous with your knowledge.The class I was running was 17.5 ,can you give me any pointers as for speed controls and is it true about the lipo's C's? thanks again , glad your out there.
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Old 08-31-2010, 01:34 AM   #9755
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Default tc4 17.5 lipo gearing

hey guys need some help , im a 20 yr dirt oval / truck guy with a couple of years TC experiance 2003-2004. Our club RC518.org runs TC on asphalt and carpet on wed and sunday nights in Latham NY. Anyhow we use Reedy Radon motors in SPEC When juimping from a RADON to a 17.5 how many teeth should i go up on the pinion ? Appreciate any info , thanks Dave dlatwork@nycap.rr.com
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Old 08-31-2010, 10:46 AM   #9756
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Originally Posted by peter george View Post
Thanks again Dave,Im very happy you are generous with your knowledge.The class I was running was 17.5 ,can you give me any pointers as for speed controls and is it true about the lipo's C's? thanks again , glad your out there.
Im glad you had a great time, and with a car so many have forgotten! With the release of the Tc6 on the horizon, i fear AE will discontinue the Tc4. I hope they dont, because experiences like yours and mine will no longer be shared. If anything, they need to discontinue the Tc5 (since the 5 and 6 share so much) and do an updated shaft car...

As far as C ratings go, to my understanding it isnt as accurate a rating (to compare between manufacturers) as the 'IR' ratings found on NiCd and NiMh batteries of the past. Im not saying that a battery rated at 50c isnt any better than one rated at 20c... but i am saying the rating format isnt standardized.

As i am new to LiPo tech myself (recently coming off of a 2+ year hiatus), and one that hates buying into sales gimmicks, i chose four packs. Two 4500ma 50c from one manufacturer, and two 4500ma 28c from another (both considered 'big name'). All four packs perform the same on the track, and resistance ratings between all four packs are within milliohms of each other.

I chose to run the 28c packs in my shaft car because of their weight, as they help me balance out my car better on a tweak station. The fact they are cheaper is just a bonus. I run boosted 17.5 and the car does well enough to either TQ, or finish in the top 3 against a list of new and seasoned locals with $400+TC's.

As with any type of racing, having the worst equipment will hold back a great driver and his lap times. Having the best equipment in the hands of a novice is likely a waste of money best used towards track time. Somewhere between those extremes is what will get you around the track, and allow local wins.

ESC's are a tough discussion, and largely because it depends on your local racing classes, and personal preferences. I had a KO VFS-1. I liked the speedo and its adjustments. Its laptop interface is very simple and easy to use. Its a very smooth speed controller, but if you plan on running in a boosted class (17.5/21.5)... it has no chance against a Tekin RS. Modified is a different matter.

The Tekin speedo is GREAT for boosted classes. Now while it does have its quirks and occasional 'bugs', Tekin does a great job with customer service. They arent the BEST at it, but they try hard. Software updates are free as well. If you need an update on a KO speedo,YOU have to pay for it to go back to the manufacturer. If you DO have an issue and need to send the Tekin back, theyre stateside, and made in the USA.

The Tekin speedo made my car faster than the KO, and my motor ran 30+ degrees cooler in a 6 minute run while doing so. Plus it helps that the Tekin RS doesnt look like a Planetary Quark Inductor strapped into my car.

I will say i keep a spare Tekin in my box, just in case i ever have to send another one off for repair. I do that only because i dont like to miss my race days, and in my eyes is no different than having a spare motor or replacement control arms in my pitbox. Sh!t happens.

There are other speed controllers coming out on the market with boost and update ability like the Tekin. Those i have not purchased, so i really cant say anything about them. If you decide to go one of those routes let me know. Im always up for info on other products that may resolve pet peeves, and may fit my personal choices.

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Originally Posted by steaksandwich View Post
hey guys need some help , im a 20 yr dirt oval / truck guy with a couple of years TC experiance 2003-2004. Our club RC518.org runs TC on asphalt and carpet on wed and sunday nights in Latham NY. Anyhow we use Reedy Radon motors in SPEC When juimping from a RADON to a 17.5 how many teeth should i go up on the pinion ? Appreciate any info , thanks Dave dlatwork@nycap.rr.com
I wish i had some direct experience with the RADON motors to help you out, but i havent.

Gear selection will vary with ESC choice, and track size as well. Can you give me that info and your current pinion/spur choice and maybe we can come up with a safe guestimate?

I see the RADON is a brushed 17t motor with a medium commutator. When i went from brushed 17t to 17.5 brushless, i added 12 teeth to the pinion, and reduced the spur by 6 teeth (64pitch) on a small indoor carpet track. This was also with the KO speedo mentioned in the above post. If i was using the RS speedo, i would have used half that much gear.
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:03 PM   #9757
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Originally Posted by stiltskin View Post
DeeDubYa. You have corrosion on the upper bumper screw. You can't be my friend anymore until you fix that.
Leave it to a brown shoe to notice that & have a fit about it
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:39 AM   #9758
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Originally Posted by DaveW View Post
Im glad you had a great time, and with a car so many have forgotten! With the release of the Tc6 on the horizon, i fear AE will discontinue the Tc4. I hope they dont, because experiences like yours and mine will no longer be shared. If anything, they need to discontinue the Tc5 (since the 5 and 6 share so much) and do an updated shaft car...

As far as C ratings go, to my understanding it isnt as accurate a rating (to compare between manufacturers) as the 'IR' ratings found on NiCd and NiMh batteries of the past. Im not saying that a battery rated at 50c isnt any better than one rated at 20c... but i am saying the rating format isnt standardized.

As i am new to LiPo tech myself (recently coming off of a 2+ year hiatus), and one that hates buying into sales gimmicks, i chose four packs. Two 4500ma 50c from one manufacturer, and two 4500ma 28c from another (both considered 'big name'). All four packs perform the same on the track, and resistance ratings between all four packs are within milliohms of each other.

I chose to run the 28c packs in my shaft car because of their weight, as they help me balance out my car better on a tweak station. The fact they are cheaper is just a bonus. I run boosted 17.5 and the car does well enough to either TQ, or finish in the top 3 against a list of new and seasoned locals with $400+TC's.

As with any type of racing, having the worst equipment will hold back a great driver and his lap times. Having the best equipment in the hands of a novice is likely a waste of money best used towards track time. Somewhere between those extremes is what will get you around the track, and allow local wins.

ESC's are a tough discussion, and largely because it depends on your local racing classes, and personal preferences. I had a KO VFS-1. I liked the speedo and its adjustments. Its laptop interface is very simple and easy to use. Its a very smooth speed controller, but if you plan on running in a boosted class (17.5/21.5)... it has no chance against a Tekin RS. Modified is a different matter.

The Tekin speedo is GREAT for boosted classes. Now while it does have its quirks and occasional 'bugs', Tekin does a great job with customer service. They arent the BEST at it, but they try hard. Software updates are free as well. If you need an update on a KO speedo,YOU have to pay for it to go back to the manufacturer. If you DO have an issue and need to send the Tekin back, theyre stateside, and made in the USA.

The Tekin speedo made my car faster than the KO, and my motor ran 30+ degrees cooler in a 6 minute run while doing so. Plus it helps that the Tekin RS doesnt look like a Planetary Quark Inductor strapped into my car.

I will say i keep a spare Tekin in my box, just in case i ever have to send another one off for repair. I do that only because i dont like to miss my race days, and in my eyes is no different than having a spare motor or replacement control arms in my pitbox. Sh!t happens.

There are other speed controllers coming out on the market with boost and update ability like the Tekin. Those i have not purchased, so i really cant say anything about them. If you decide to go one of those routes let me know. Im always up for info on other products that may resolve pet peeves, and may fit my personal choices.



I wish i had some direct experience with the RADON motors to help you out, but i havent.

Gear selection will vary with ESC choice, and track size as well. Can you give me that info and your current pinion/spur choice and maybe we can come up with a safe guestimate?

I see the RADON is a brushed 17t motor with a medium commutator. When i went from brushed 17t to 17.5 brushless, i added 12 teeth to the pinion, and reduced the spur by 6 teeth (64pitch) on a small indoor carpet track. This was also with the KO speedo mentioned in the above post. If i was using the RS speedo, i would have used half that much gear.
thanks for the insight , i'll let u know how i make out ......
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:16 AM   #9759
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I would try and stay away from the swaybar if you could. You can end up with a faster car if it is setup without one, but that just depends on whats comfortable for you.

My Tc4 did the same thing. It wants to spin out coming off the corner on power. Heres the changes i made that got rid of most of it for our asphalt...

Front shocks: Red AE spring, #1 piston, 50wt oil, inner hole on arm, #2 hole on tower (counting from the centerline of the car)

Rear shocks: Green AE spring, #1 piston, 40wt oil, outer hole on arm, #3 hole on tower (counting from the centerline of the car)

4 degree caster blocks (tried 6 degree blocks, too much caster)

Are you using any washers under the ballstuds on the steering rack? Im using a silver ballstud (+.030 over a black ballstud) and another .030 washer under each steering rack ballstud.

Which hole are you using on the steering knuckle? If youre using a front diff, use the inside hole on the steering knuckle... and be sure your steering turnbuckles are parallel with the lower control arm at static ride height. This is your bumpsteer adjustment, and varies with the caster blocks you use, suspension shim choice under the suspension mounts, and the number of washers under the steering knuckle ballstud.

If you can, try to crossweight the car on an MIP Tweak Station, or someones balance beam. The shaft cars are really sensitive to crossweight changes, or lack thereof. If your on power oversteer was mostly to the right, and not so much to the left... then this is something you need to look into. If you dont have threaded shock bodies for the fine adjustments, let me know... i have like 6 full sets of them, and youre more than welcome to one.

I also shortened the front camber link one hole, but we use grape soda on our track. That difference, and the X pattern tires you use for RCGT may not require that change. Also, make sure you are building your shocks with as little rebound as possible (AE's bleeder caps preferred), it will provide the best overall 'feel' for asphalt.


This weekend, i am testing my theory that it is the Tc4 steering rack that causes the majority this 'off the corner, on throttle oversteer' problem and installing a Tc3 steering rack. I havent had a Tc3 rack in a Tc4 tub in many years, and that was on carpet... so we will see. If so, then the chassis can be tuned to go faster without this issue...
Dave - took me a while to get to the car, but I made most of the changes that you mentioned. Here is what I did:

1. Changed to SILVER springs in the rear.

2. Changed to RED springs in the front.

3. Adjusted the DROOP in back to 3 and 4 in front.

4. Checked and adjusted the camber to 2 in rear and 1.5 in front.

5. Added a HITECH digital servo.

Lessons learned?

1. Do not rely on stock out of the box settings. They are horrible (DROOP off on each side, camber not consistent)

2. Do not recycle the stock servo feed horn - use the feed horn that comes with the kit that is labeled for your servo manufacturer.

3. Learn to use sub-trim on the steering components.

Verdict? The car ran 1000% better. I was able to run the track at-speed most of the day. The spinning out from the corners are gone.

What is next?

1. Upgrade my radio to Specktrum DX3SR (I have a DX3E now) to get more control over the steering and better response.

2. Replace the steering bushings with RPM bearings to remove the 'play' in the stock bushings.

3. Swap out stock screws for aluminum.

4. Mount Novak cooling fan on motor.

5. Swap out stock swing arms, and steering parts for aluminum.

Will submit photos and more data when done. Appreciate the feedback Dave - you set me on the right track.

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Old 09-06-2010, 09:33 AM   #9760
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Default BMI CHassis Setup

Is anyone still running the BMI Plated TC4? I recently acquired a BMI setup TC4 for my son and tore it apart for a rebuild and will be ready to throw on the setup board later this week. He is running 17.5 rubber tire carpet, but seeing that he is 7, will most likely throw in a 21.5.
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Old 09-06-2010, 05:11 PM   #9761
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Originally Posted by oldpugva View Post
Dave - took me a while to get to the car, but I made most of the changes that you mentioned. Here is what I did. - What is next?

1. Upgrade my radio to Specktrum DX3SR (I have a DX3E now) to get more control over the steering and better response.

2. Replace the steering bushings with RPM bearings to remove the 'play' in the stock bushings.

3. Swap out stock screws for aluminum.

4. Mount Novak cooling fan on motor.

5. Swap out stock swing arms, and steering parts for aluminum.

Will submit photos and more data when done. Appreciate the feedback Dave - you set me on the right track.

OldPugVA
Glad i could help out and you had a great time with the car. Might i suggest some caution with aluminum parts? Alu screws arent a bad idea unless they are taken out frequently, or there arent many of them holding a particular part. Make sure the holes are pretapped with a steel screw. You never want to use an alu screw to thread a hole.

Aluminum arms and steering parts are beefy, but run the risk of breaking other parts that hold them in place. If they dont break, they can bend, and cause ill handling that is harder to troubleshoot... and are costlier to replace. I cant think of too many aftermarket aluminum arms and steering parts that offer excellent fitment over the original plastic AE parts (which is saying a lot because AE plastic parts are known to need some massage for best fitment lol).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamic_e View Post
Is anyone still running the BMI Plated TC4? I recently acquired a BMI setup TC4 for my son and tore it apart for a rebuild and will be ready to throw on the setup board later this week. He is running 17.5 rubber tire carpet, but seeing that he is 7, will most likely throw in a 21.5.
I havent seen a BMI chassis in quite a while. Post some pix up of that beauty!

If you are looking for setup info, anything for the FT Tc4 will get you close. AE's website is going through a remodel, so i dont know when they will have their setup sheets available again... and if they will even post up info for the FT Tc4. All of my FT Tc4 setups were for foam/carpet.
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:16 AM   #9762
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5. Swap out stock swing arms, and steering parts for aluminum.

Will submit photos and more data when done. Appreciate the feedback Dave - you set me on the right track.

OldPugVA
I would avoid aluminum for arms and main parts - after a few hits they will start to tweak just a bit - the plastic/carbon ones will just break.

Break vs. tweak (slight bend that you don't notice) - tweak will make your life miserable since you won't know why your perfect settings don't work anymore and you can't seem to adjust your way out of it. . . break lets you know immediately that you need to replace a fairly inexpensive part. . .
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:59 PM   #9763
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I would avoid aluminum for arms and main parts - after a few hits they will start to tweak just a bit - the plastic/carbon ones will just break.

Break vs. tweak (slight bend that you don't notice) - tweak will make your life miserable since you won't know why your perfect settings don't work anymore and you can't seem to adjust your way out of it. . . break lets you know immediately that you need to replace a fairly inexpensive part. . .
@Dave and Boomer - I hear you loud and clear!

Dropping the aluminum idea. Will stick to stock parts. Perhaps metal screws (looks nice - RC Bling!)
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:47 AM   #9764
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Screws? Ya! Weight plus bling (although there are a couple that you will end up wanting to stick with steel. . . LOL)
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:54 PM   #9765
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Aluminum screws are garbage.
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