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Old 01-19-2006, 02:24 PM   #7711
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Originally Posted by morris
so if i read everything right im am to actually set ride height first...then set droop by using the ae gage.or as wyd said run 1mm of droop/uptravel over ride height.as my tires ware then i will have to ofcourse adjust ride height for i would have to screw down the droop screws to get the same feel....i will just have to keep tabs on how i do it..

thx,
matt

Ride height first. TWEAK next, on a tweak station of your choice (the MIP station is fairly cheap and works well). If tweak was way off... and the threaded collars were adjusted alot, recheck rideheight, and adjust if necessary. Then adjust droop 1-1.5mm over rideheight F/R for starters. As the tire wears you will screw the droop screws OUT of the arms... or UP, to maintain the previous setting. If you want to use the droop gauge from AE... use it AFTER the car is run and feels good. That way you can write the AE gauge #'s on your setup sheet, that also has gear, motor, rideheight, and tire size information. THEN you can repeat that same setup with that included information, but do it with the AE gauge as you build the car during the week before you get to the track. Its a little faster that way, and you end up spending more time on the track than in the pit setting up your car.



General information regarding droop. If the car has too much on power steering off a corner using the previously mentioned settings... try backing the front droop screws out a 1/4 turn, try a few laps and see if it helped. If the car is picking up a rear tire as it corners, or it doesnt seem to have enough initial turn-in coming into a corner, then back out the rear droop screws a 1/4 turn, try a few laps and see if it helped. The 1/4 turn is repeatable, and easy to return to the previous setting if it doesnt solve the problem. Droop however should not be assumed as the only way to address these types of issues, but should not be overlooked as part of a combination of things that could be the problem. Adjusting the droop screws is one of the fastest ways to see if you need to change something, or if you have a compound problem with setup.

For general information, tire size ALSO affects roll center of the car. A bigger tire with a rideheight of say 5mm will allow the car to roll more and generate more "grip" (that is a very general description) than a car with a smaller tire and the same rideheight. This is another compound issue that is part of tire dynamics, but im discussing roll center adjustment. As the tire gets smaller and you maintain the same overall rideheight, the inner arm hingepins are raised (in relation to the outer arm hingepins), effectively reducing the amount the car will roll. If you must run a larger tire, raising the inner hingepin height .025 equally F/R will help maintain a smiliar roll center as when the tires are smaller. Then fine adjustments can be done with the ballstuds, on the hubs or the inner mounts. Tire wear and camber will play a major tuning tool here. Just remember to reverse the adjustments as the tires get smaller, or the car will "tighten up in corners" and turn slower laps.

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Old 01-19-2006, 03:17 PM   #7712
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Dave I'd like to have you in my pit box, that 1 to 1.5 mm over ride height in this a carpet setting.
I run on a largeish asphalt track with med/high traction on rubbers sorex or take offs.
While my initial setup on the bench at home with the AE droop gauge is 5 and 6mm this gives me about 4 to 5mm over ride height, or same as lifting the chassis from ride height up there is 4/5mm lift on the chassis to clear the tyres from the set up board, does this sound right for my track.
I'm not 100% happy with my FTTC4 setup at present this maybe some of it.
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:37 PM   #7713
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I believe we might have a different definition of what droop stands for. The way I define it is the relationship (in downtravel) of the axle to the bottom of the chassis. This is measured at full extension of the suspension,independent of tire size, therefore it is unaffected by tire size.

I believe what you guys are describing is just what I call the "sag" (excuse the choice for word I really can't find anything better ), in the suspension at ride height. Which is very similar to what I call droop, incorporated with ride height. With different tire sizes, spring compression will have to be increased in order to keep the same ride height. Whenever you increase your spring compression and increase the length of your downtravel (droop), you also increase the stroke of the shock, which increases the roll characteristics of the car (it causes the vehicle to pitch more). The "sag" might be the same, but the pitch axes of the vehicle will be different. Hence like DaveW said the roll center changes.
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Old 01-19-2006, 03:45 PM   #7714
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Default droop

so many different ways to do this i suposse.i will do what i know how to.make the car work from that point of veiw.

thx for all the help guys,
matt
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Old 01-19-2006, 04:21 PM   #7715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john h
Dave I'd like to have you in my pit box, that 1 to 1.5 mm over ride height in this a carpet setting.
I run on a largeish asphalt track with med/high traction on rubbers sorex or take offs.
While my initial setup on the bench at home with the AE droop gauge is 5 and 6mm this gives me about 4 to 5mm over ride height, or same as lifting the chassis from ride height up there is 4/5mm lift on the chassis to clear the tyres from the set up board, does this sound right for my track.
I'm not 100% happy with my FTTC4 setup at present this maybe some of it.
your track conditions don't sound too far off what i'm running on...

using the AE Droop gauge, i run 6 front, 4 rear...
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:35 PM   #7716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
The way you check droop with the TC4 (and the way they are indicated by the setup sheets is the following)

You must use the associated droop gauge.
1.Use the flat part next to the step increments with the numbers on the gauge and set i against the bottom of the chassis.
2.The step increments must be facing towards the outside of the arm, rest the outside part of the a arm (near the hinge pin) on the number desired.
3.Turn the set screw adjustment to make sure that the arm comes down exactly to the point of contact with the droop gauge.

Here you seemed pretty sure of what we were talking about, and nothing is mentioned here about axle relation to bottom of the chassis. Sounds like an attempt at verbal two-step, but whatever. As long as those asking questions are helped, thats what matters.

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Old 01-19-2006, 06:36 PM   #7717
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ROFL - back to the droop argument.

The argument is between relative droop (the difference between normal RH and "drooped" RH) and absolute droop (also called dropout).

Absolute droop is what the AE gauge measures - this is the difference between the chassis and the lowest extension of the arm. This does not change due to tire-size differences.

Relative droop (the difference between normal RH and fully extended RH) DOES change and this is the one that makes the most difference. . . simply because as your tires wear, your RH changes and as you up the RH to stay the same, the amount of relative droop is now changing - think about it. Your arm must be pushed lower (farther from the bottom of the chassis) which changes your relative droop - how much farther down your arm can extend than where it sits at RH.

This doesn't matter much with rubber tires. . . obviously (I'm preachin to the choir here! )

Hope that helps! (

(much information taken from Racing Car Vehicle Dynamics, Milliken & Milliken)
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Old 01-19-2006, 06:42 PM   #7718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john h
Dave I'd like to have you in my pit box, that 1 to 1.5 mm over ride height in this a carpet setting.
I run on a largeish asphalt track with med/high traction on rubbers sorex or take offs.
While my initial setup on the bench at home with the AE droop gauge is 5 and 6mm this gives me about 4 to 5mm over ride height, or same as lifting the chassis from ride height up there is 4/5mm lift on the chassis to clear the tyres from the set up board, does this sound right for my track.
I'm not 100% happy with my FTTC4 setup at present this maybe some of it.

AMO3GT's suggestion sounds about right for rubber tires. Theyre usually around 62-63mm in size, and the size doesnt change enough to be an issue. Whats your 4 doing that doesnt seem right? Is your track indoor/outdoor asphalt? We will do what we can to help ya but we need a bit more info.

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Old 01-19-2006, 07:45 PM   #7719
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Wow I feel so lazy. I set droop by holding the wheels down with one hand and pulling up on the shock tower with the other. I never bother to check it with a gauge once I get the car good enough. I can feel if one is longer (more droop) than the other. Uneven droop would/could show up as tweak anyways. Anyway, its not as accurate as using a gauge but I get the car setup a lot faster this way and can spend more time practicing.
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Old 01-20-2006, 01:00 AM   #7720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
Here you seemed pretty sure of what we were talking about, and nothing is mentioned here about axle relation to bottom of the chassis. Sounds like an attempt at verbal two-step, but whatever. As long as those asking questions are helped, thats what matters.

- DaveW
I honestly am not trying to question your knowledge, much less discredit you. You said in your post that droop was affected by tire size, but it isn't. The fact that you must adjust your droop according to your tire size is true, no dissagreement. This is due to the fact that ride height changes as tires get smaller. The person in this website with the corally car asked how the associated guys adjusted their droop, everybody gave them an elaborated description in how to do it or how not because of X or Y factor under Z circumstance. All he needed was a straightforward and helpful answer. I am not here to attack anybody, but more so to help somebody rather than BS and try to prove my superior knowledge to all the newbies around here.

I really don't know what you are trying to say with the verbal two step thing, but I honestly don't appreciate it. In response to what I described as the way to set droop according to the Associated standard, if you would understand what I am depicting, you would therefore be able to distinguish that the description is a simple elaboration of how to set the relationship between the axle and the chassis (after all that's what the droop gauge does). The only answer I can find to your post is that maybe egotistical maniacs can't see past thier own words due to their greatness and knowledge of all things R/C.

If anyone ever needs any help with the TC4, you can find it in the John Stranahan CVD vs. Losi drive thread. I will no longer post amongst the TC4 gods; apparently I don't know what I am talking about.
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Old 01-20-2006, 05:01 AM   #7721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CristianTabush
I honestly am not trying to question your knowledge, much less discredit you. You said in your post that droop was affected by tire size, but it isn't. The fact that you must adjust your droop according to your tire size is true, no dissagreement. This is due to the fact that ride height changes as tires get smaller. The person in this website with the corally car asked how the associated guys adjusted their droop, everybody gave them an elaborated description in how to do it or how not because of X or Y factor under Z circumstance. All he needed was a straightforward and helpful answer. I am not here to attack anybody, but more so to help somebody rather than BS and try to prove my superior knowledge to all the newbies around here.

I really don't know what you are trying to say with the verbal two step thing, but I honestly don't appreciate it. In response to what I described as the way to set droop according to the Associated standard, if you would understand what I am depicting, you would therefore be able to distinguish that the description is a simple elaboration of how to set the relationship between the axle and the chassis (after all that's what the droop gauge does). The only answer I can find to your post is that maybe egotistical maniacs can't see past thier own words due to their greatness and knowledge of all things R/C.

If anyone ever needs any help with the TC4, you can find it in the John Stranahan CVD vs. Losi drive thread. I will no longer post amongst the TC4 gods; apparently I don't know what I am talking about.
Goodness... someone takes things a bit too personal. You said, tire size didnt affect droop. I said it did. It has nothing to do with ego, omniscience or omnipotence, or vocabulary. This is a discussion forum for those who need help, newbie and seasoned racer alike. You decided to change your previous statement, and somehow im the bad guy here? Trust me, sarcasm is a second language to me, "and i dont appreciate it" coming from you. Would a simple "oops i made a mistake and i was wrong" be impossible to admit, not to us but to yourself, long enough to get off of your drama queen pony and actually be of some assistance? What good is a discussion forum if you have to have "mommy" hold everyones hands so there is no pudding slung in the room? Dude, get a grip...



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Old 01-20-2006, 06:15 AM   #7722
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Default droop

i guess that there are so many different ways to or should i say people set droop.looks like i fired up a whole kinda situation on this thread....i will just do it as i used to but keep tabs on the ae gaige.there shouldnt be no problems there.i do understand that as my tires get smaller my ride height will get lower..i re-adjust ride height for i will have re-adjust the droop...i will keep tabs with the ae gaige...sounds simple enouph.....thanks for all the help...

matt
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Old 01-20-2006, 07:56 AM   #7723
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Good afternoon guys,

I jsut got a new Factory Team TC4. I have it put together and now I want to know what are some good hop-ups for this beautiful car?

I am going to race stock for now with it on carpet. I run stadium trucks, but spend the entire day at the track, so I might as well get my moneys worth.

Thanks in advance,
scott
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Old 01-20-2006, 09:14 AM   #7724
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Originally Posted by scottw
Good afternoon guys,

I jsut got a new Factory Team TC4. I have it put together and now I want to know what are some good hop-ups for this beautiful car?

I am going to race stock for now with it on carpet. I run stadium trucks, but spend the entire day at the track, so I might as well get my moneys worth.

Thanks in advance,
scott
the car you have is already stocked with most all the options you need. the list of add-ons is small...

depending on your racing surface you can get a one-way or a spool front differential. (you mention carpet so you probably won't need these)

definitely look into the VCS2 shock upgrade kit #31123 (makes tuning and building shocks much easier)

if you don't like battery tape, as i don't you can get the #31126 battery strap kit. you can add the #1787 battery strap thumbscrew set also whcih in my experience provides a more secure strap fit.

the car comes with 4* caster blocks... 0, 2, & 6 degree blocks are availabe for tuning.

the car comes with the x-2.5 rear toe-in block. ae makes a x-2.0 and x-3.0 rear block for tuning...

other than the VCS2 shock upgrade kit and maybe the battery strap, there isnt anything you must have. hit the track, drive and tune before you decide if you need some of the other tuning options.
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Old 01-20-2006, 12:51 PM   #7725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morris
i guess that there are so many different ways to or should i say people set droop.looks like i fired up a whole kinda situation on this thread....i will just do it as i used to but keep tabs on the ae gaige.there shouldnt be no problems there.i do understand that as my tires get smaller my ride height will get lower..i re-adjust ride height for i will have re-adjust the droop...i will keep tabs with the ae gaige...sounds simple enouph.....thanks for all the help...

matt

Good luck at the track Matt, there are some nice tracks in PA. Plenty of competition there to hone your skills. Let us know how it goes!

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