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Old 10-29-2005, 09:17 PM   #6946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsaves
Now Dave W. gave me a set up that used lighter shock oil but much stiffer springs.
I tweaked the set up and the car is quite quick in transitions, getting closer to a 12th scale transition quick.
The car is not all the way there, but I am getting much quicker lap times that are getting very competitive with all racers except one. But I am getting closer to him also.
To me I am seeing a trend, we will see.
God Bless
Can you (or Dave) post that setup? Thanks
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Old 10-29-2005, 09:28 PM   #6947
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Man, did you guys see the rumors of an FK06 release?? Poor XRay owners.



BEERBARRON: Setup, and i know you know this, is alot more than just springs and shock oil. You could run your car with my transmitter as the only change, and the car NOT feel the same at all to you. Its really hard to say if one setup is the best or will work for everyone, it is only fair to offer a ballpark setup. With so many differences between electronics and material tolerances, a person would be wise to use a given setup as a guide... not the answer. Setup is always a compromise anyways... to gain somewhere you have to give elsewhere. Then you add driver style, which becomes a preference... and that will change the way you dial in your car, comparatively speaking. The FTC4 does seem a bit lazy (but confidence inspiring) in transitions with a box setup... it is also one of the last "long arm" designs left on the new market. The longer arms (when compared to an FK05 or even a JRX-S) will mean more work on the "topside" of the car for roll control... which is also directly related to weight transition. The problem with this is it can "tighten" up a car... when both the lower and the upper pivot points (arms/length)... in a perfect world...should be adjusted. Now to say one is better than the other?? No way. Driver/style can make up for quite a bit of difference. A few people discussing the domination of the TC3 in its prime would be wise to compare the rest of its field of competition... the TC3 was ahead of its time... and it took a few years for the rest to... literally... catch up. Now, there are fast quality cars at every head turn, and you honestly cant go wrong with a purchase. There are no more dominant cars... and if one were to say (hypothetically) "But there were 9 FK05's in the A main of the Nats"... then you should also consider that the other fields were more than likely flooded with them too. B-Z mains had them also. What wins on Sunday sells on Monday... and it sucks. Marketing is its own enemy at times. Its hard to be a fast driver if you are always changing cars and never learning what you are wheeling. But then again... you might never know what fits you, if you never try another chassis. Again, always a compromise. Ok, enough on that pointless rant.



I run a bit stiffer spring when compared to shock oil, i want/like faster shock rebound to aid in weight transfer, both F/R and L/R. I really like to progressively load up the car in each corner... push the tire for what is worth, and expect it to come back the same. Which, available traction of a given tire, is a whole different discussion. Run a search on the net for what is described as a "friction circle" for tires in racing... interesting reading. Bladders offer slower transition rates (and overall "less" traction... more noticable on asphalt/rubbers... the car can feel "skatey", and not "locked in"), and should only be "necessary" when the grip is really high, and you cant control shock action w/o having to be rediculous with your piston and shock oil choices (exaggerated:100wt oil, #3piston, 100lb spring, etc). They are an option though, and some drivers really like them. The ackerman setting is something that can definitely dial in your car. I run a black ballstud in my steering rack with no washers... our track is of the smaller indoor variety (non-backed ozite on mostly smooth concrete) with only one good sweeper or medium sized turn. The black ballstud will give you more angle when comparing L/R tires earlier into the mechanical action of the servo... you will not have to turn the wheel as much to get the same overall effect. This can also allow you to run less dual rate on your transmitter, and with less "wheel" in the car, the less speed it scrubs. The smaller your turns (180's), the more angle you need through ackerman... and vice versa for larger courses. You can tell a tight car on the track.. the tires are really loud on the rug... you can hear them scuffing. You dont even have to look at the lap times to know, the car gets to a certain point and will go no faster. Another benefit of the black ballstud... its alot harder to over-drive the car in chicanes... its smooths out steering input closer to servo neutral. The more caster (4 degrees, 6 degrees) you run in the car, the more you might want to try this (black ballstud) to make the car less responsive coming into corners. If the standard washer (.030) is too much of a change for you in ackerman adjustments... try the ASC gold servo washers... the ones included in the kit for the servo mounts... they are half the thickness, and still offer the support of a metal washer for the ballstud base/neck. I hope some of this helps.


JSAVES: Did you set the car up with 2 .030 washers in front of the rear arm on the hingepin... and 1 behind? Try all three in front for .090... this could help with a bit more steering, but can also lead to a rough rear diff IF the car unloads through the corner. Depends on the driving style. I know i said to try the silver front anti-roll bar, which is the kit offering, but im runing a smaller one... .060... just a tad larger than the standard thin rear bar. Its a custom bend from piano wire. Bend to mimic a standard bar, and tweak it on glass. (Which also brings to mind... make sure all four anti-roll bar links are the same length... it has been mentioned on here before to use them to tweak your car, which CAN be done, but honestly is not the best way to do it.) Also, alternately, try adding 1/4oz of weight under your foam bumper... attached to the bottom plastic part... wedged and hidden between the plastic and foam, that far out on the nose it can really help with entire corner steering... without changing anything major on the car. If you make that your only change, you will be really surprised!

In stock or 19T you can run a front LW steel diff with a rear plastic unit for the same effect, and smooth out the driveline with a little flywheel effect. I know that sounds retarded... add weight to the driveline in stock class... but with todays cells and motors... we arent really hurting for power. Some driving styles could really benefit from this as well. Again, not a rule of thumb, but a suggestion for those interested.

REDLINEM03: I have not forgotten the pics of the "D" ring steel diffs... they are apart on on the bench... been really busy with the wife this weekend and havent taken the time to snap em and size em yet. Soon bro... soon.




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Old 10-30-2005, 06:03 AM   #6948
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That's cool no problem Dave..........
Chat @ you later


Thanks,
E

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Old 10-30-2005, 07:27 AM   #6949
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Front
Shocks: White spring, #3 piston, 45wt Losi oil, #2 hole on tower, inside on arm
Suspension mounts: #2 under triangle and circle (.050), 3 shims in front of the arm
Caster: 4 degrees
Droop: 5
Camber link: Hole #1, black ballstud inside-silver ballstud on the casterblock, no washers
Anti-roll bar: Silver, full length

Steering rack: Black ballstud, no washers
Bumpsteer: Three silver washers (.090), silver ballstud, this will be different if you use the stock TC4 steering block (i use the Losi XXX-S block), the idea is to get the steering links level with the suspension arms at rideheight (when looking at them from the front of the car with the bumper removed) When looking down on the front end, there should be no steering deflection in the steering knuckle when the suspension is compressed and released. Again, a great starting point.
Standoffs: All four added
Spine: No
Diff: LW Steel, tight

Rear
Shocks: Yellow spring, #2 piston, 50wt Losi oil, #3 hole on tower, outside on arm.
Suspension mounts: #3 under circle (.075), #2 under X3.0 (.050), 3 shims in front of the arm
Rear hub: Inside hole
Droop: 4
Camber link: Hole #1, black ballstud inside-silver ballstud on Losi 0 degree non-offset hub, no washers
Anti-roll bar: Black, full length
Diff: LW steel, medium
Rideheight: 5mmR/4.5mmF
Tire size: 57 mm to start
Check tweak! MIP station works well.
Transmitter settings: Dual rate 90%. Steering End Point Adjustment 64%L/66%R (make sure the servo arm is 90 degrees to the servo link at neutral, it will be a mixture of mechanical/transmitter settings to get it like that).

I am still running front arms on the rear of my car, it is something i have come to really like, but is not necessary to run this setup. If you run the standard rear arms, then use .060 in front of the rear arm on the hingepin, and .030 behind... it seems to be whats popular with the rear arm setups. As i mentioned before, this can be a decent starting place for mod, and in less HP classes can feel really decent, with a few tweaks for driver preference. If the steering feels a bit numb to you at center... check steering exponential on your transmitter before you add any washers under the black ballstud on the steering rack. You may have it knocked back a bit into the negative already... and can bring some of that back in. As your tire size gets smaller you will need to change the droop setting to 4F and 3R, or somewhere in between. Depends on how you decide to do droop on your car. The Losi oil isnt a necessity... ASC oil is just as good... i just prefer the Losi oil for the coloration... its alot easier to know whats in the shock. Trinity oil has been known to be thinner... and Xray oil has been known to be thicker... of the same weight. Anyways, hope this does some good.

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Old 10-30-2005, 09:14 AM   #6950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
BEERBARRON: Setup, and i know you know this, is alot more than just springs and shock oil. You could run your car with my transmitter as the only change, and the car NOT feel the same at all to you. Its really hard to say if one setup is the best or will work for everyone, it is only fair to offer a ballpark setup. With so many differences between electronics and material tolerances, a person would be wise to use a given setup as a guide... not the answer. Setup is always a compromise anyways... to gain somewhere you have to give elsewhere. Then you add driver style, which becomes a preference... and that will change the way you dial in your car, comparatively speaking. The FTC4 does seem a bit lazy (but confidence inspiring) in transitions with a box setup... it is also one of the last "long arm" designs left on the new market. The longer arms (when compared to an FK05 or even a JRX-S) will mean more work on the "topside" of the car for roll control... which is also directly related to weight transition. The problem with this is it can "tighten" up a car... when both the lower and the upper pivot points (arms/length)... in a perfect world...should be adjusted. Now to say one is better than the other?? No way. Driver/style can make up for quite a bit of difference. A few people discussing the domination of the TC3 in its prime would be wise to compare the rest of its field of competition... the TC3 was ahead of its time... and it took a few years for the rest to... literally... catch up. Now, there are fast quality cars at every head turn, and you honestly cant go wrong with a purchase. There are no more dominant cars... and if one were to say (hypothetically) "But there were 9 FK05's in the A main of the Nats"... then you should also consider that the other fields were more than likely flooded with them too. B-Z mains had them also. What wins on Sunday sells on Monday... and it sucks. Marketing is its own enemy at times. Its hard to be a fast driver if you are always changing cars and never learning what you are wheeling. But then again... you might never know what fits you, if you never try another chassis. Again, always a compromise. Ok, enough on that pointless rant.



I run a bit stiffer spring when compared to shock oil, i want/like faster shock rebound to aid in weight transfer, both F/R and L/R. I really like to progressively load up the car in each corner... push the tire for what is worth, and expect it to come back the same. Which, available traction of a given tire, is a whole different discussion. Run a search on the net for what is described as a "friction circle" for tires in racing... interesting reading. Bladders offer slower transition rates (and overall "less" traction... more noticable on asphalt/rubbers... the car can feel "skatey", and not "locked in"), and should only be "necessary" when the grip is really high, and you cant control shock action w/o having to be rediculous with your piston and shock oil choices (exaggerated:100wt oil, #3piston, 100lb spring, etc). They are an option though, and some drivers really like them. The ackerman setting is something that can definitely dial in your car. I run a black ballstud in my steering rack with no washers... our track is of the smaller indoor variety (non-backed ozite on mostly smooth concrete) with only one good sweeper or medium sized turn. The black ballstud will give you more angle when comparing L/R tires earlier into the mechanical action of the servo... you will not have to turn the wheel as much to get the same overall effect. This can also allow you to run less dual rate on your transmitter, and with less "wheel" in the car, the less speed it scrubs. The smaller your turns (180's), the more angle you need through ackerman... and vice versa for larger courses. You can tell a tight car on the track.. the tires are really loud on the rug... you can hear them scuffing. You dont even have to look at the lap times to know, the car gets to a certain point and will go no faster. Another benefit of the black ballstud... its alot harder to over-drive the car in chicanes... its smooths out steering input closer to servo neutral. The more caster (4 degrees, 6 degrees) you run in the car, the more you might want to try this (black ballstud) to make the car less responsive coming into corners. If the standard washer (.030) is too much of a change for you in ackerman adjustments... try the ASC gold servo washers... the ones included in the kit for the servo mounts... they are half the thickness, and still offer the support of a metal washer for the ballstud base/neck. I hope some of this helps.




- DaveW

Thanks Dave for taking the time to reply. I like to look at set ups and see what the trend is for a given track, person, car, etc...In reality for me a car setup is a lot like a recipe. Some recipes are good others great, but it all is a matter of personal preference and what makes you go fast or feel fast. All setups start with the basic ingredients, tires, weight distribution, spring rates, dampning, geometry. A little more of one may neccesitate a little more or less of another. Some people like spicy food others hate it same with setup.

That being said there are still physics involved and a car wont defy physics just because you like a particular setup. For me I like a car setup that allows the car to simply read my mind and be willed to any point on the track. I am still working on that.
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:22 AM   #6951
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Thanks Dave W. for all the help. It has been great on the track.

I used exactly what Dave gave me except I went with #2 pistons in front and yellow spring.

I noticed Dave you went to 45wt oil in front insted of the 50wt. But I figured that is getting pretty close to a 50wt #2 piston compared to a 45wt #3 piston.

I will try a lighter sway bar and the weight in front this next weekend.
Thanks.

Hey guys check out the Halloween at the Gate race. As of 2 rounds Baker and Blackstock doing pretty good for team AE.
God Bless
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:37 AM   #6952
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Question on the sway bar links length. Are you talking about the ball stud on the bar length to the end of the bar (moving it in and out) or the length of the links that connect the ball stud to the arm?

I read that you should get the arms to raise up at the same time when lifted (with out shocks attached) from both sides. I try to get them to raise as close as possible.

(beerbarron) I am running double pink/orange ft tires and double pink rears.
Jaco brand with paragon black can traction compound. They were new and I did not true them down. Trying to save a little money.

I am running on ozite on a concrete floor with no backing also.

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Old 10-30-2005, 01:34 PM   #6953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsaves
Question on the sway bar links length. Are you talking about the ball stud on the bar length to the end of the bar (moving it in and out) or the length of the links that connect the ball stud to the arm?

I read that you should get the arms to raise up at the same time when lifted (with out shocks attached) from both sides. I try to get them to raise as close as possible.

(beerbarron) I am running double pink/orange ft tires and double pink rears.
Jaco brand with paragon black can traction compound. They were new and I did not true them down. Trying to save a little money.

I am running on ozite on a concrete floor with no backing also.

God Bless

Hi Jsaves

I was talking to an AE Team driver and what he does with the ball stud length for the sway bars is to remove the shocks turn the chassis upside down, hold one wheel against the down stop and see how much the other wheel falls (or raises car is upside down ) do this for the other side also and adjust the links so as that both sides have the same fall when the other side is held against the down stop ( droop screw ).

I have found this to be more accurate than trying to feel the other side lift at the same time as you are using the suspensions own weight as the measure for which the suspension will fall which should be the same left to right.
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Old 10-30-2005, 05:29 PM   #6954
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If the anti-roll bar is tweaked on glass... that is, to be sure the two pivot points held down by the screws/washers are on the glass as are both ends of the swaybar... then the bar is "square". If you then make sure the links length are equal (blue ballstuds)... both from the arm to the bar... and from the link mount on the bar to the bar pivot point... then with the rest of the chassis being square through design, then there would be no need to check for "drop" from one side to the next. 1/10 is just like building a bar setup on a 1/1 car. The ability to tweak a setup with anti-roll bars is nil in comparison to a 1/8th twist on a single shock collar with a white spring under it. This is especially true of a thin anti-roll bar... that honestly has little effect when compared to the largest anti-roll bar available for the car.

Yes i went to 45wt with a #3 piston in the front... i wanted a bit more anti-dive control w/o having to do it in the hingepins. It also lets the shock slowly extend (when compared to a #2 piston) when adding power off the corner... giving me more on-power steering w/o using less droop (i.e. 5 to say 6). In theory you can make a #3 40wt feel like #2 50wt on the bench... or static damping, but the #3 piston will always have more control over the oil. It will pack up faster than the #2 ever will. Stabbing the brakes will seem more confidence inspiring... and the car can feel alot smoother in transitions... if you stay on your line. Its all related to shock shaft speed and actual shock extension. If you are on a track that allows little shock travel... then a #3 piston can be used... but if the car is always "busy" and the shocks have to extend and move alot to get the car to work... then a #3 piston can be a hindrance. Again... preference is key. As far as DPink-DPink/Or tires go... the smaller they get the "harder" they get. Any foam is like that actually. The durometer reading goes up with less rubber... simply because there is less rubber. You will notice a difference in the car the smaller the tires get. Sadly, they are really good around 2.25... which is after the majority of the life of the tire is gone. So as they get smaller you may notice the need for a few small changes to the setup. Im glad Jaco reduced tire prices!! Just in time for the winter races. I still wish we did rubber tire racing on a club level here in the US. I guess hobby shops like selling foams too much.



Whats the general consensus of speedos everyone is running? I know you are limited if you are running brushless.

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Old 10-30-2005, 06:19 PM   #6955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
If the anti-roll bar is tweaked on glass... that is, to be sure the two pivot points held down by the screws/washers are on the glass as are both ends of the swaybar... then the bar is "square". If you then make sure the links length are equal (blue ballstuds)... both from the arm to the bar... and from the link mount on the bar to the bar pivot point... then with the rest of the chassis being square through design, then there would be no need to check for "drop" from one side to the next. 1/10 is just like building a bar setup on a 1/1 car. The ability to tweak a setup with anti-roll bars is nil in comparison to a 1/8th twist on a single shock collar with a white spring under it. This is especially true of a thin anti-roll bar... that honestly has little effect when compared to the largest anti-roll bar available for the car.

Yes i went to 45wt with a #3 piston in the front... i wanted a bit more anti-dive control w/o having to do it in the hingepins. It also lets the shock slowly extend (when compared to a #2 piston) when adding power off the corner... giving me more on-power steering w/o using less droop (i.e. 5 to say 6). In theory you can make a #3 40wt feel like #2 50wt on the bench... or static damping, but the #3 piston will always have more control over the oil. It will pack up faster than the #2 ever will. Stabbing the brakes will seem more confidence inspiring... and the car can feel alot smoother in transitions... if you stay on your line. Its all related to shock shaft speed and actual shock extension. If you are on a track that allows little shock travel... then a #3 piston can be used... but if the car is always "busy" and the shocks have to extend and move alot to get the car to work... then a #3 piston can be a hindrance. Again... preference is key. As far as DPink-DPink/Or tires go... the smaller they get the "harder" they get. Any foam is like that actually. The durometer reading goes up with less rubber... simply because there is less rubber. You will notice a difference in the car the smaller the tires get. Sadly, they are really good around 2.25... which is after the majority of the life of the tire is gone. So as they get smaller you may notice the need for a few small changes to the setup. Im glad Jaco reduced tire prices!! Just in time for the winter races. I still wish we did rubber tire racing on a club level here in the US. I guess hobby shops like selling foams too much.



Whats the general consensus of speedos everyone is running? I know you are limited if you are running brushless.

- DaveW

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Old 10-30-2005, 07:26 PM   #6956
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Dave rubber tire racing is to expensive. There are also to many tire and insert combo's. Guys start running new sets every week at club races sometimes 2 sets a week. Some are sponsored and have endless supplies. It sure takes the fun out of it. Besides most of the big races are on foam anyways. Your info is awesome by the way. keep it up.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:09 AM   #6957
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I have a problem with my diffs...I tryed two types(from manual and another one) to make my diffs but always they untie...could you please tell me where to put the screw(at the short or at the long outdrive)?I see tc3s manual and it makes differently(..it puts also the spring in the thrust and from other it only puts the nut without it includes the plastic)...what to do???????
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:23 AM   #6958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kflabouris
I have a problem with my diffs...I tryed two types(from manual and another one) to make my diffs but always they untie...could you please tell me where to put the screw(at the short or at the long outdrive)?I see tc3s manual and it makes differently(..it puts also the spring in the thrust and from other it only puts the nut without it includes the plastic)...what to do???????
Which type of diff are you using (plastic or steel), as the building instruction differ for both of them.

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Old 10-31-2005, 08:21 AM   #6959
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SOVIET: Sean, yanno i kinda dig the throwback purple heatsink on the GTX! Im still running GT7's... a first generation for stock/19t with the built-in schottky... and another upgraded one with external schottky for mod... when we ever run it. I have always run Novak products. The 200$ trend for speedos is a bit scary though. Anyone running the newer LRP goods?

CHRISREILLY: I should have specified and said control tire and insert. But youre right, new tires every week for some would still make it costly for others. Its a shame... but i guess it is the way of racing... always looking for that faster edge. I remember a track here years ago that ran control tire/insert rubber races. The tire was the original VRage (S2) that came with the TC3 kit... to try and keep beginners costs down. The insert ended up being the HPI Yellow/RedDot molded inserts... and your choice of rim. The racing was always very close, and even for the faster guys it became a challenge to "find" time. Needless to say, with those tires on that particular track... the older the tire got the better it was. We ran a single set for the whole points season... and lap times only got faster. I have to say that was probably my most memorable local year in racing... it was the most fun and was still competitive. Good times was had by all.



KFLABOURIS: Crashmasters right... we still need a bit more info to help ya.



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Old 10-31-2005, 09:39 AM   #6960
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Dave that wouldn't be to bad if they last that long and get better the older they get. It's good to see the result for Barry Baker at "The Gate" this past weekend. They seem to have had a rough time getting the car upto speed. Maybe they are starting to figure it out.
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