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Old 11-07-2012, 08:59 AM   #4561
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Will any other brand servo lever work on this car?
I am having good luck with the Xray servo savers.

http://www.nexusracing.com/product_i...oducts_id=3995
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:34 AM   #4562
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Ran the S411 this past weekend at the GORC (Georgia On Road Championship), a regional race at our local track. Thursday practice had me running 10.5 with the fast guys around 10.0.

Changed camber from 1.5/2.0 to 1.5 all around, softened the entire car, lowered the rear roll centers and the car got very mellow and easier to drive. I had switched to a front diff with 100k in it, and am really liking the feel, even though I know it is costing me a couple tenths. It is a lot more consistent and easy to drive which leads to better qualifiers if not faster laps. Started on Sweep QTS 32's and switched to Jaco Blues (both were spec tire options) on Friday as traction came up and the jacos were more consitent through the 6 min. With 10+ hours of practice friday, got the car down to a 10.0 with the fast guys hitting 9.7's. I also changed the springs from Serpent to RSD (I have the RSD on my VTA) and the car felt better in the chicanes (the weight transfer left to right felt less abrubt and the car felt more planted).

Saturday morning, rebuilt the shocks (with same 35wt oil), cleaned carpet bits out of the diff pullies and went back to work. Hit a 9.9 in controlled practice before the qualifiers started. We did qual points (which still confuses me) but had 3 decent qualifiers (with resorts was running in the "b-main" quals) and qualified 7th overall in the A-Main. There was a little knocking around at the beginning, and I got into 4th in the first lap. The first 3 cars included 2 sponsored drivers and one previously sponsored driver running a TC6.1, Xray T4 and Tamiya 417. One of our fastest drivers (who was TQ until the last qualifier) in his T3 2012 caught me about half way through and I held on to 5th for the remainder of the main, a lap down from the leaders.

Will try a spool sometime soon, as I stil have gobs of steering and when traction comes up, the back end becomes a little looser then I like. I was down to treating only the inner half of the front tires with SXT, and full rears.

It seems a little odd, while trying to dial the car in, I ended up removing all of the shims under the rear hinge pin blocks, and running more on the front (+1.5mm under both fronts). My understanding is this is raising the roll center in the front (removing front traction) while lowering it in the rear (and adding traction). It seems extreme to me though. Any thoughts?

This sounds like the last race I attended, so I sort of have a feel for what your trying to do. To start, lower RC adjustments are big changes, and I have yet to get to a track where I have ever gone with what you posted. From what I see from most setups, everyone seems to pick the one setting, in my case I always use the .5mm spacers front and rear, and then fine tune from there. I think some of what you said can be a little misleading as the rc adjustments don't really effect forward traction as much as traction thru the corner. Remember these adjustments are effecting the "roll" characteristics of the car, or how it reacts thru the corners. So its more side traction thats being changed up to the point that the car wants to break out from underneath you thru the corner. I have found that if you want to effect "forward" traction, adjustments of anti-squat and anti-dive will help in that part of the track. Think of it this way, that as the car shifts over going thru a corner, as it rolls more, the links are effecting how much of the contact patch of the tire stays in contact with the rug, it also effects how slow or fast this happens as well. The thing is, that you can go too far to where the car has rolled so far that you beging to loose that contact patch so the car get loose again.

So I think your observation is correct that the lower change was extreme. Probably could have been remedied by adding upper spacers on the link, as you really are just changing the measurement between the upper and lower pivot point. The front spacing although the opposite of what I would run, could be accomplished with taking spacers away from the inner upper link.

You may or may not know the above, so take it as a little review. In your case, as I'm pretty familiar with the JACO blue tires and SXT compound. I would run about neg .75 to neg 1mm front camber, the rear I would run neg 3mm camber. Go to the 3.5 rear toe block. Start with 3mm and 3mm on the rear upper links. Also 5mm under the front inner camber link. Sauce the whole rear tire about 8-10 minutes before your heat and about half the front tire for the same time. The front may vary depending on how much turn in you want. Run 2.5mm orh in the front and 2.0mm in the rear, with a ride height of 5.5mm. Try some of the softer springs front and rear, something in the 12 to 13 range. If you need to settle the rear down just a little try to add .5mm antidive to the car. One thing that has been working for me and this is really dependant on how rough the track is, is I don't run the torsion bars. So try running with out them to start till you get a good baseline, then you can fine from there if necessary.
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Old 11-07-2012, 12:43 PM   #4563
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This sounds like the last race I attended, so I sort of have a feel for what your trying to do. To start, lower RC adjustments are big changes, and I have yet to get to a track where I have ever gone with what you posted. From what I see from most setups, everyone seems to pick the one setting, in my case I always use the .5mm spacers front and rear, and then fine tune from there. I think some of what you said can be a little misleading as the rc adjustments don't really effect forward traction as much as traction thru the corner. Remember these adjustments are effecting the "roll" characteristics of the car, or how it reacts thru the corners. So its more side traction thats being changed up to the point that the car wants to break out from underneath you thru the corner. I have found that if you want to effect "forward" traction, adjustments of anti-squat and anti-dive will help in that part of the track. Think of it this way, that as the car shifts over going thru a corner, as it rolls more, the links are effecting how much of the contact patch of the tire stays in contact with the rug, it also effects how slow or fast this happens as well. The thing is, that you can go too far to where the car has rolled so far that you beging to loose that contact patch so the car get loose again.

So I think your observation is correct that the lower change was extreme. Probably could have been remedied by adding upper spacers on the link, as you really are just changing the measurement between the upper and lower pivot point. The front spacing although the opposite of what I would run, could be accomplished with taking spacers away from the inner upper link.

You may or may not know the above, so take it as a little review. In your case, as I'm pretty familiar with the JACO blue tires and SXT compound. I would run about neg .75 to neg 1mm front camber, the rear I would run neg 3mm camber. Go to the 3.5 rear toe block. Start with 3mm and 3mm on the rear upper links. Also 5mm under the front inner camber link. Sauce the whole rear tire about 8-10 minutes before your heat and about half the front tire for the same time. The front may vary depending on how much turn in you want. Run 2.5mm orh in the front and 2.0mm in the rear, with a ride height of 5.5mm. Try some of the softer springs front and rear, something in the 12 to 13 range. If you need to settle the rear down just a little try to add .5mm antidive to the car. One thing that has been working for me and this is really dependant on how rough the track is, is I don't run the torsion bars. So try running with out them to start till you get a good baseline, then you can fine from there if necessary.
Great feedback as always, and a lot of things to try. The way it was explained to me, is that (approximately) a change to the lower mount had double the effect of the same change on the upper. Meaning lowering the rear hinge pins 1mm was like raising the uppers 2mm. The idea was to get in the ballpark on the bottom, then fine tune with the top. Roll is definitely one of those concepts that gives my brain fits.

I am running the 3.5 rear block, 4mm on the rear upper inner links, 3mm on the front inner uppers. I am also running 0.5mm on the front outer uppers. I am running long links on the front, medium on the rear (inner at wheel, inner at diff). I am also running sway bars, 1.8mm front, 1.2mm rear. 35wt oil, 3 hole pistons, 16.5lb front springs, 14.5 rear (RSD springs) and 5.5mm ride height (I drag the motor under cornering at 5.0mm). I am running hole 4 on front and rear upper shock mounts. Front diff is 100k, rear is 2k. No squat/dive, but I am running 2* blocks front front and front rear for a little wider front end.. 2.25mm stock chassis and top deck. V2 motor mount with the V1 front piece, all screws in. I was running all hard plastics, but the c-hubs are mediums now (broke two right front hards the week before and did not have any more). Droop is 2.5mm/2mm, and the track does definitely have some bumps. We did a lot of work to the sub floor a few weeks back, but there are still some ripples in the carpet. Nothing that has been noticably affecting TC, but the 12th scale can get a little hoppy. LTC-R body, wing mounted all the way back as well.

I will say the car felt good, with a slight on power push in the mornings (we have had some cold nights). Around mid day, the car was dynamite (that is where I had my fastest laps), but as traction continued to climb, the back end became a little loose. Still controllable, but in the chicanes, it was easy to unsettle. The Xray's were struggling a bit with those chicanes as well, and their solution was just to mash the throttle and let the front pull the rear through.

Car was by far the best it ever has been though, both in lap times and feel. I have not had it running as a TC for very long (been racing VTA and 12th mostly) but it turns in quickly without the twitchiness of my 12th scale, allows you to rotate the rear around in a controlled manner with throttle, and had a planted rear end in the chicanes. What I was trying to accomplish was to take away a bit of the front end bite on power to settle the rear in that last bit as traction built in the track.

We had 3 heats of 12th scale, and 10 heats of rubber tire cars and traction definitely increased through the day. Attached 2 pics of the track. Perspective is a little goofy as it was with a fish eye. CRC carpet, some light bumps, layout is only 2 weeks old so off line traction is still very low.
Attached Thumbnails
Serpent S411-dsc_3969.jpg   Serpent S411-dsc_3970.jpg  
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Old 11-07-2012, 05:07 PM   #4564
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Man thats a nice looking track.

Setup wise, your look pretty solid, some of the things I would try are as follows;
-If it felt good with the 2.0/2.0 try running with some 1mm hex spacers in the front and .5mm spacers in the rear.
-If you can either try the super flexi 2.0mm top deck or mod your existing deck like Ed/Tryhard did, a couple pages back, I think this shows great promise on carpet as well.
-try the lighter springs, maybe run the same ones front and rear.
-up the front diff fluid to 500k.
-if you have the V1/V2 motor mounts I'd play with that combo, again Eds post from before.....the only thing I found was my car worked better with running the top 4 rear screws, no middle screw, and the lower screw in the rear instead of the front.
-I'd still try running with out the bars, they can really mess a good setup up.
-The rest is just chasing the setup with doping the tires, maybe the entire front at the start of the day and then reduce as the feel changes.
-Oh and definitely go to the anti-dive in the front, that's going to really, really help settle the back of the car.

Let us know what works for you. (nice track )
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:53 PM   #4565
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Originally Posted by BigRon View Post
Will any other brand servo lever work on this car?
I'm using Tamiya #51000 plus the 3Racing 18mm horn. Seems to be the same length as the stock horn:
http://os.3racing.hk/products.php?products_key=4113

I also attended the same WCICS race as Gary a couple weeks back, so I should post my setup as well. I started with Martin's Canadian Nats setup and changed very little:
http://members.shaw.ca/spsoon/Steve_...onton_2012.pdf

(Gary, you'll have to tell me how to upload these to the usual websites )
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:33 AM   #4566
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
Setup wise, your look pretty solid, some of the things I would try are as follows;
-Oh and definitely go to the anti-dive in the front, that's going to really, really help settle the back of the car.

Let us know what works for you. (nice track )
Gary, you mention running anti dive in the front. If you are running 0.5fr in the front already, would you then change to 0.5/1.0 to maintain the pin position or would you change it to 0/0.5 and make the pin height lower?
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Old 11-08-2012, 07:05 AM   #4567
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
Man thats a nice looking track.

Setup wise, your look pretty solid, some of the things I would try are as follows;
-If it felt good with the 2.0/2.0 try running with some 1mm hex spacers in the front and .5mm spacers in the rear.
-If you can either try the super flexi 2.0mm top deck or mod your existing deck like Ed/Tryhard did, a couple pages back, I think this shows great promise on carpet as well.
-try the lighter springs, maybe run the same ones front and rear.
-up the front diff fluid to 500k.
-if you have the V1/V2 motor mounts I'd play with that combo, again Eds post from before.....the only thing I found was my car worked better with running the top 4 rear screws, no middle screw, and the lower screw in the rear instead of the front.
-I'd still try running with out the bars, they can really mess a good setup up.
-The rest is just chasing the setup with doping the tires, maybe the entire front at the start of the day and then reduce as the feel changes.
-Oh and definitely go to the anti-dive in the front, that's going to really, really help settle the back of the car.

Let us know what works for you. (nice track )
Thank you sir! We spent a full Sunday working on some of the underlayment and reducing the bumps, and then another day to do the layout. The walls are plastic PVC and the corners have dozens of notches so that they are radiused and not hard edges. We did the painted grid and timing line just before last weekend, as well as taping all the walls with the red and white tape. It looked quite nice for our race.

I can try the spacers, that is a good thought that I never considered. My pit neighbor has the different thickness Xray hexes too that he may let me borrow to try out.

I do have the flex top deck that I have never used. I thought I had read people going to 2.5 chassis and top deck for carpet though?

My only worry about going softer with springs is the left/right transitions in the chicanes. Since we have 3 of them, it is important to make sure the car can transition quickly enough. The Xray's do not seem to be able to off the front, and they have to keep the throttle on to make it through those sections quickly. If they lift too much, the back end will go wonky and slide out on the second corner.

I am using 100k just because that is all I have. Do you know who carries the thicker fluids?

I just changed to the V1/V2 combo mount this weekend, and have not played with the screws on top yet. There is always the old method of using a set screw in the center as well as completely removing some. As with the flex top deck, I am a little unsure as to what additional flex/stiffness like this does for the car and the cars handling, so it is something I have mostly avoided. The motor mount change was mostly because people here said they had good results, and it didn't make my car feel any worse.

I will try without the rear sway. My fear again is in the chicanes. Talking to one of our sponsored guys, he said that the rear sway will help keep the car settled in the chicanes as you transition quickly side to side, and that removing it can make it less consistent depending upon how you come through it.

Anti-dive and trying to adjust for some of the front/rear hinge pin height differences will be my first changes along with 1* front camber. See how that runs, and continue tweaking from there. I also think I can play with my gearing some. Using a Cooper Motorsports Thunder Power with the blue rotor right now, and have nice torque. One of our guys is sponsored by Novak and got the newest Ballistic with the high RPM rotor. He and the guy who pits next to me ran them. The sponsored guy went back to his Snowbirds motor as he did not chase gearing enough and did not like the lack of torque. My pit neighbor played with gearing more, and while he had me on top end, I still had him coming out of the corners. I think as we both adjust the gearing, we will find we are pretty similar, though he may come out a bit ahead. The new ballistics are FAST!

I'm going to the track Friday and Sat, and will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again!
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:02 AM   #4568
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Old 11-08-2012, 08:31 AM   #4569
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I just realized that I still have a set of brand new, never built 411 shocks that came in my original 411. Does anyone who has a TE perfer the original shocks? Or anybody with the LE or just the original 411 need another full set of 4. I would be willing to sell these for 40.00 or maybe even less. Thought I would offer here before I put them on the other thread.

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Old 11-08-2012, 08:54 AM   #4570
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I can try the spacers, that is a good thought that I never considered. My pit neighbor has the different thickness Xray hexes too that he may let me borrow to try out.

You are always welcome to anything he has.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:06 AM   #4571
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You are always welcome to anything he has.
Very true, thank you Danny
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:37 AM   #4572
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Gary, you mention running anti dive in the front. If you are running 0.5fr in the front already, would you then change to 0.5/1.0 to maintain the pin position or would you change it to 0/0.5 and make the pin height lower?

0.5/1.0 is what you should end up going to. Remember to check all your front settings specifically ride height and droop, bump steer, toe..........darn, best to recheck all your front settings if you do this change. LOL.
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Old 11-08-2012, 09:46 AM   #4573
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You are always welcome to anything he has.
XRAY hubs do not fit Serpent axles unless you drill through the hub, as it is not the same diameter all the way. I bought a pair of the super-narrow XRAY hubs to try on the back..... I had to use a drill bit to remove the inner edge. It was worth it, however!
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:11 AM   #4574
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Thank you sir! We spent a full Sunday working on some of the underlayment and reducing the bumps, and then another day to do the layout. The walls are plastic PVC and the corners have dozens of notches so that they are radiused and not hard edges. We did the painted grid and timing line just before last weekend, as well as taping all the walls with the red and white tape. It looked quite nice for our race.

Its a beautiful track.

I can try the spacers, that is a good thought that I never considered. My pit neighbor has the different thickness Xray hexes too that he may let me borrow to try out.

Unfortunately Xray hexes would have to be reamed to fit as the Serpent axle has the slightest step at the end that prevents the hubs from fitting flush to the bearing face........you'll see what I mean if you try it.

I do have the flex top deck that I have never used. I thought I had read people going to 2.5 chassis and top deck for carpet though?

Interesting topic, BobW did some chassis tests for flex to see if there was some kind of trending or pattern that shows one better over another, this was nice as I did the same thing a while back......no pattern, no consistancy, nothing that shows a thick is better than a thin or vice versa to make one better than the other. Now top decks are another matter, at least for me, I get definate handling and time differences that show up.......chassis not so much. Now this isn't saying that different weave or compisition make up could change the feel of chassis, but for out stock items, nothing. The only advantage was overall weight and that wasn't much either.

My only worry about going softer with springs is the left/right transitions in the chicanes. Since we have 3 of them, it is important to make sure the car can transition quickly enough. The Xray's do not seem to be able to off the front, and they have to keep the throttle on to make it through those sections quickly. If they lift too much, the back end will go wonky and slide out on the second corner.

Try going up just a little in shock oil. You could also try a really short rear link. I have asked Serpent to make us some one hole rear uprights, heres hoping it happens.

I am using 100k just because that is all I have. Do you know who carries the thicker fluids?

I use Traxxas 500k, or try a actually diff lock fluid, I think its made by OFNA. The offroad guys use the heavier stuff so they would be good to ask.

I just changed to the V1/V2 combo mount this weekend, and have not played with the screws on top yet. There is always the old method of using a set screw in the center as well as completely removing some. As with the flex top deck, I am a little unsure as to what additional flex/stiffness like this does for the car and the cars handling, so it is something I have mostly avoided. The motor mount change was mostly because people here said they had good results, and it didn't make my car feel any worse.

I will try without the rear sway. My fear again is in the chicanes. Talking to one of our sponsored guys, he said that the rear sway will help keep the car settled in the chicanes as you transition quickly side to side, and that removing it can make it less consistent depending upon how you come through it.

You'll have to try, you could be the trend setter, lol. Remember, when using a bar, its dictating to both wheels, so if one wheel is seeing a bad surface your other one is going to get the same feed back, even if it doesn't need it. I'd dump them both, first and then see what it feels like, then if you feel it needs the bar put it in. It will definately flatten the car out.

Anti-dive and trying to adjust for some of the front/rear hinge pin height differences will be my first changes along with 1* front camber. See how that runs, and continue tweaking from there. I also think I can play with my gearing some. Using a Cooper Motorsports Thunder Power with the blue rotor right now, and have nice torque. One of our guys is sponsored by Novak and got the newest Ballistic with the high RPM rotor. He and the guy who pits next to me ran them. The sponsored guy went back to his Snowbirds motor as he did not chase gearing enough and did not like the lack of torque. My pit neighbor played with gearing more, and while he had me on top end, I still had him coming out of the corners. I think as we both adjust the gearing, we will find we are pretty similar, though he may come out a bit ahead. The new ballistics are FAST!

Very fast, interesting power band, even for a HRPM sator they like even more timing, and then gearing is really different from what others would use. I see about 4 teeth difference from the previous stuff. The new Impact speed controls are really smooth now and maybe just a little bigger than the Tekin, and no big cap either, NOVAK is really getting back into the racing stuff. I just hope we'll see the 12.5 rotors soon, Charlie keeps telling me they are coming.

I'm going to the track Friday and Sat, and will let you know how it goes.

For sure and good luck, you have my e-mail so if something comes up feel free to ask.

Thanks again!
See the red.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:18 AM   #4575
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Originally Posted by Steve S View Post
I'm using Tamiya #51000 plus the 3Racing 18mm horn. Seems to be the same length as the stock horn:
http://os.3racing.hk/products.php?products_key=4113

I also attended the same WCICS race as Gary a couple weeks back, so I should post my setup as well. I started with Martin's Canadian Nats setup and changed very little:
http://members.shaw.ca/spsoon/Steve_...onton_2012.pdf

(Gary, you'll have to tell me how to upload these to the usual websites )

Hey Steve,

I'll e-mail you the particulars on getting the setups posted in the different places.

Oh and welcome to the "TEAM".
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