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Old 07-05-2012, 07:28 PM   #3856
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Yup,

To be honest, I'm not a fan of slagging cars off, and the Awesomatix on it's day was stupid fast... but regularly wouldn't have enough of them. Also seemed to be a lot of divergence on setups, and I simply no longer have the time or will to be wrenching hard on the car every run to try and figure the setup. And bumps.. well, we'll leave it there.

So, I've picked up a car that I believe is simple to work on, more traditional and consistent in setup, and that I would know how to sort out. Simple life really!

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This states _exactly_ why I moved away from the A700 as well. It's a shame, there were many great things I liked about that car, if it were a belt drive car I think things would be different.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:58 AM   #3857
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Looking forward to running the car some more.

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Ed, Will you be in Australia in November for the Nationals? Would be great to get some feedback from you on the Logan track if you get a chance to run there in the coming months.
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Old 07-06-2012, 08:43 AM   #3858
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I am curious who here has driven Xray T3's? I have driven a couple of them, and then last night drove another T3 VTA car. As I have been concentrating a lot of the feel of a car (particularly corner speed and rotation), it seemed really eye opening to me.

My S411 seems to turn off the front end. It feels like it digs in and powers through from the back. It has a traditional throttle steer feel, but is very planted. I have been coming off with the front tires at ~105* and the rears at ~95*. Driving the Xray, it felt very tail happy in comparison. Watching him drive, it appeared that he threw it into every corner, and then the front end pulls it around and out. It rotates very quick, and to me, you have to be much lighter on the steering to not break the back end loose. I have felt the same with several other Xray's, but had always assumed that it was just the driving style preference of those drivers. The Xray's tires come off around the same temps, but reversed, with the rears being higher temp then the fronts. With a longer session (8 min main), the rears will creep up a little higher, and around the 7 min mark, will begin to get loose even for them driving.

In comparison, the Xray felt like what I would have expected a FWD to feel like (The 411FF feels much more like my 4WD oddly enough).

I ask, because it makes me think my driving style is wrong (and probably slower), and while my car is very smooth around the corners, it doesn't seem to be on edge like the other's, and is slower as a result. When my driving does not interfere, I can run pretty smooth and consistent, but I am definitely off the pace (0.5sec slower fast lap, 0.3 at the beginning of a race, 0.1 at the end average...i have less fade so it closes up some at the end).

This is all rubber tire on carpet. It is VTA specifically now (staggered treaded wheels) but I have felt the same with our TC's as well. We are all running front spools and rear gear diffs.
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Old 07-06-2012, 12:00 PM   #3859
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Originally Posted by orcadigital View Post
I am curious who here has driven Xray T3's? I have driven a couple of them, and then last night drove another T3 VTA car. As I have been concentrating a lot of the feel of a car (particularly corner speed and rotation), it seemed really eye opening to me.

My S411 seems to turn off the front end. It feels like it digs in and powers through from the back. It has a traditional throttle steer feel, but is very planted. I have been coming off with the front tires at ~105* and the rears at ~95*. Driving the Xray, it felt very tail happy in comparison. Watching him drive, it appeared that he threw it into every corner, and then the front end pulls it around and out. It rotates very quick, and to me, you have to be much lighter on the steering to not break the back end loose. I have felt the same with several other Xray's, but had always assumed that it was just the driving style preference of those drivers. The Xray's tires come off around the same temps, but reversed, with the rears being higher temp then the fronts. With a longer session (8 min main), the rears will creep up a little higher, and around the 7 min mark, will begin to get loose even for them driving.

In comparison, the Xray felt like what I would have expected a FWD to feel like (The 411FF feels much more like my 4WD oddly enough).

I ask, because it makes me think my driving style is wrong (and probably slower), and while my car is very smooth around the corners, it doesn't seem to be on edge like the other's, and is slower as a result. When my driving does not interfere, I can run pretty smooth and consistent, but I am definitely off the pace (0.5sec slower fast lap, 0.3 at the beginning of a race, 0.1 at the end average...i have less fade so it closes up some at the end).

This is all rubber tire on carpet. It is VTA specifically now (staggered treaded wheels) but I have felt the same with our TC's as well. We are all running front spools and rear gear diffs.
I used to run the T3'11/12 and what you describe is exactly what they where and still do on the track, I really notice the same thing here in TC, as the very fastest guys are on those cars, and truthfully, to me the cars look like they are fastest when they get tossed thru the corners more so than driving a smooth line (Course they are about 20+ years younger than me as well, so maybe its reflexes . I have found that the more I work on upper camber link, sway bars and rear diff, the closer I am able to get to the same fast times, without giving up the "tossed" look of the car. I will add that the zero rebound RCM shocks have helped a lot and going to the V2 diff. Then the biggest thing is nailing the ride height/droop and being pretty anal about tweak.

One other thing that really, really turned the car around for me on carpet, and I don't know why, and I have tested a ton of them, is going to the 2.50 top deck. I feel that if I had only one option to change the top deck was the one that impacted the car the most to the good side. I've run this deck on the 2.0, the 2.25, the 2.25 exo, and the 2.50 chassis and from all the top decks, on carpet, the 2.50 seems to be the ticket for me. Just for the heck of it, I have even double the top decks, running a 1.75 with a 2.0 and it even felt better on the car..............unfortunately I can't tell you if this applies to the VTA cars and those larger tires, but its something to consider.

I did run a GT car setup with a SC, and pretty much built that car as a noodle, running a 500k front diff, it seemed like I could drive that car anywhere and roll the corners with very little scrub, but that was on JACO blue tires.

Keep the info/questions coming, maybe something will click for you.

(I got nothing on the motor so far )
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #3860
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Originally Posted by orcadigital View Post
I am curious who here has driven Xray T3's? I have driven a couple of them, and then last night drove another T3 VTA car. As I have been concentrating a lot of the feel of a car (particularly corner speed and rotation), it seemed really eye opening to me.

My S411 seems to turn off the front end. It feels like it digs in and powers through from the back. It has a traditional throttle steer feel, but is very planted. I have been coming off with the front tires at ~105* and the rears at ~95*. Driving the Xray, it felt very tail happy in comparison. Watching him drive, it appeared that he threw it into every corner, and then the front end pulls it around and out. It rotates very quick, and to me, you have to be much lighter on the steering to not break the back end loose. I have felt the same with several other Xray's, but had always assumed that it was just the driving style preference of those drivers. The Xray's tires come off around the same temps, but reversed, with the rears being higher temp then the fronts. With a longer session (8 min main), the rears will creep up a little higher, and around the 7 min mark, will begin to get loose even for them driving.

In comparison, the Xray felt like what I would have expected a FWD to feel like (The 411FF feels much more like my 4WD oddly enough).

I ask, because it makes me think my driving style is wrong (and probably slower), and while my car is very smooth around the corners, it doesn't seem to be on edge like the other's, and is slower as a result. When my driving does not interfere, I can run pretty smooth and consistent, but I am definitely off the pace (0.5sec slower fast lap, 0.3 at the beginning of a race, 0.1 at the end average...i have less fade so it closes up some at the end).

This is all rubber tire on carpet. It is VTA specifically now (staggered treaded wheels) but I have felt the same with our TC's as well. We are all running front spools and rear gear diffs.
My friend's T3 is the same way. He throws it hard into the turn and the front looks as if it claws through. I drove it and was a few tenths slower than him when I drove it like I do the Serpent (smooth & neutral). When I got aggressive and yanked the throttle and wheel through the turns I got a little faster with it, but it scrubbed a bit more. The incredible smoothness of the Serpent is why it was so easy for me to wheel it with a mod motor and lay consistent laps.

I agree with Johnny on the 2.5 upper for carpet..... I ran it with the 2.25 lower and it felt great regardless of traction!
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:47 PM   #3861
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Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
I used to run the T3'11/12 and what you describe is exactly what they where and still do on the track, I really notice the same thing here in TC, as the very fastest guys are on those cars, and truthfully, to me the cars look like they are fastest when they get tossed thru the corners more so than driving a smooth line (Course they are about 20+ years younger than me as well, so maybe its reflexes . I have found that the more I work on upper camber link, sway bars and rear diff, the closer I am able to get to the same fast times, without giving up the "tossed" look of the car. I will add that the zero rebound RCM shocks have helped a lot and going to the V2 diff. Then the biggest thing is nailing the ride height/droop and being pretty anal about tweak.

One other thing that really, really turned the car around for me on carpet, and I don't know why, and I have tested a ton of them, is going to the 2.50 top deck. I feel that if I had only one option to change the top deck was the one that impacted the car the most to the good side. I've run this deck on the 2.0, the 2.25, the 2.25 exo, and the 2.50 chassis and from all the top decks, on carpet, the 2.50 seems to be the ticket for me. Just for the heck of it, I have even double the top decks, running a 1.75 with a 2.0 and it even felt better on the car..............unfortunately I can't tell you if this applies to the VTA cars and those larger tires, but its something to consider.

I did run a GT car setup with a SC, and pretty much built that car as a noodle, running a 500k front diff, it seemed like I could drive that car anywhere and roll the corners with very little scrub, but that was on JACO blue tires.

Keep the info/questions coming, maybe something will click for you.

(I got nothing on the motor so far )
I sure appreciate the responses. I am always nervous questions like these will turn into a brand war, but I should know to expect better from the Serpent folks.

Could you eloborate more on the upper camber links? I think my biggest issue right now is that the car feels awesome. While I have talked about slight push, it is when I try to get back on the throttle too early. I am still powering through the apex, but I need to shift the car balance forward to get the bite, and then accelerate through it. Being able to push the car out with the throttle is actually nice for our track. It is tight, but some of the corners flow very nicely into each other, and you can really get the feel of the car rolling on the line instead of the point and shoot that TC usually is on a small track. So I am not sure what to change, as there is no real lack. The car rolls well, sticks to the corners, can drive varied lines in traffic, accepts my inconsistent throttle and steering inputs, and in general looks boring and slow. No drifting, wheelies, or any good stuff. I am afraid to change something to make it worse, because I am not sure what 3 other things I woujld need to change as a response to make it better (and potentially better then it is now, or potentially worse).

I do like the idea of the 2.5 upper deck, and I am running LE's, so have the 2.25 lower. I am using the V2 motor and steering, but have yet to bite the bullet on the shocks. Otherwise, then the RCM shocks and the different chassis and top decks (I do have a flex top deck), I have pretty much every tuning option, hinge pin mounts, full spring sets for Serpent, HPI, AE, Xray, and RSD, as well as full sway bar sets front and rear.

Sending you an Email about motors too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoods34 View Post
My friend's T3 is the same way. He throws it hard into the turn and the front looks as if it claws through. I drove it and was a few tenths slower than him when I drove it like I do the Serpent (smooth & neutral). When I got aggressive and yanked the throttle and wheel through the turns I got a little faster with it, but it scrubbed a bit more. The incredible smoothness of the Serpent is why it was so easy for me to wheel it with a mod motor and lay consistent laps.

I agree with Johnny on the 2.5 upper for carpet..... I ran it with the 2.25 lower and it felt great regardless of traction!
What is interesting, is the Xray for me feels skittish unless you are pushing it (hard to want to do with someone elses $1k investment). If I try to roll the corners and smooth on to the throttle, the back end comes out, front feels unhinged, and it just does not work. We have a chicane/slalom type area on the back side of the track, and I could not do it in his car. If you weren't heavy on the gas powering through it, it just fish tailed. You really need the weight transfer of throttle to keep the back end planted.

I think that was the big difference. The Xray, balancing the car with throttle was the difference of it working or not. The Serpent, the weight transfer allows you to run different and potentially faster lines, but it does not need that shift to get around the track. I am able to tap instead of lift (shift more weight to the front) and cut a tighter line inside of another car, or lift less, and run a wider on power line around the outside of them. It seems like I have more options without upsetting the car or it fighting me.

A lot of this is stream of thought, so critisize at will, but it is my typing out loud as my mind tries to wrap around it. It really started when Chris (another Xray driver at the track) made a comment about Daniel's (the guy whos car I drove) car and how well it rotated. That was when I asked to drive it, and this whole thought process started. This has been an interesting discussion so far, and thank you all for indulging me.
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Old 07-06-2012, 02:59 PM   #3862
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I have both a s411 and a t3 12, The t3 is really my 8 year old sons car but I drive it a bit for fun. The s411 once you realize how fast it is when driven smooth is my favorite car I have driven yet. The s411 rewards you when you are smooth. The t3 is like the above posts state it wants to be manhandled a little more. I believe that if you had a lot of time on both cars they would be very comparable in speed on the clock. I prefer the way the serpent gets it done I think it is more like real driving. I do like the xray a lot also, both great cars and neither contingent should bash the other.
P.S
Most the racers on this thread have raced other brands Xray being well represented in that capacity and I find this to be a pretty unbiased thread.
I am vacationing in Yosimite so My son and I missed this weekends race and reading this is making me almost miss it.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:05 PM   #3863
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the T3 was the car i was driving while i waited for the S411. i did ok with the car, but i could not get the setup right for me. seems everyones findings was exactly the same for me. i just could not get the rear end settled off power.
on the Vid i posted earlier, going onto the back straight and off it, its sort of uphill going on and its off camber, while traction on power was ok, i just couldnt come to terms with the tailyness going into the corner.
the first day i got my S411, i had already springs, as i drove serpent 733 and baught every spring. first battery pack i ran in 2 stages. kit setup from the manual, i did about 4 laps, and i was wondering if i made the right decision making the change. car was nervous , twitchy, and really had no overall balance. so i came in and looked at things. all i did to start with was change the rear spring to white from yellow, and lengthened the rear top arm to long, and lengthened the rear wheelbase by 2mm. then went out again. just with these changes, the car felt so much better, and funnily enough, i had some grip off power. so now i could drive it how i liked. and the remainder of the first battery pack, i improved my time from the T3 by 0.2 of a sec.

i also find the spool can add some front end mid corner bite, and can take away some really good corner speed on our sweeper, so i tried the front diff with 200K 4 gears. the car was better again. i have now got 500K 4 gear diff, and it creates a little corner exit push, but it really is easy to drive like this, and so consistant. so our lap time here went from 16.5 with T3, to 16.2 early after the S411 release, then with more time, its now down to 15.6 , and even after our nationals, the 15.6 still stands. but only just. i just love the car. its reliable, fast, and easy to drive.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:17 PM   #3864
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anyone have a front diff in there car yet and if so what fluid are you using?
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:40 PM   #3865
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anyone have a front diff in there car yet and if so what fluid are you using?
My favorite is OFNA diff locker with 2 gears. 500k with 4 gears is pretty good, also. I do prefer the gear diff up front but I wanna try the nylon spool since it is 10g lighter than the stock spool! I'm not sure it'd hold up in mod but for stock on high bite it'd be perfect.
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Old 07-06-2012, 09:56 PM   #3866
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I sure appreciate the responses. I am always nervous questions like these will turn into a brand war, but I should know to expect better from the Serpent folks.

Could you eloborate more on the upper camber links? I think my biggest issue right now is that the car feels awesome. While I have talked about slight push, it is when I try to get back on the throttle too early. I am still powering through the apex, but I need to shift the car balance forward to get the bite, and then accelerate through it. Being able to push the car out with the throttle is actually nice for our track. It is tight, but some of the corners flow very nicely into each other, and you can really get the feel of the car rolling on the line instead of the point and shoot that TC usually is on a small track. So I am not sure what to change, as there is no real lack. The car rolls well, sticks to the corners, can drive varied lines in traffic, accepts my inconsistent throttle and steering inputs, and in general looks boring and slow. No drifting, wheelies, or any good stuff. I am afraid to change something to make it worse, because I am not sure what 3 other things I woujld need to change as a response to make it better (and potentially better then it is now, or potentially worse).

I do like the idea of the 2.5 upper deck, and I am running LE's, so have the 2.25 lower. I am using the V2 motor and steering, but have yet to bite the bullet on the shocks. Otherwise, then the RCM shocks and the different chassis and top decks (I do have a flex top deck), I have pretty much every tuning option, hinge pin mounts, full spring sets for Serpent, HPI, AE, Xray, and RSD, as well as full sway bar sets front and rear.
I could, but from your description it sounds more like all you need is a little adjustment with the front and rear droop and you could be golden. The thing is, if you keep good track of what you change, you can always go back if it doesn't work for you.
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:10 PM   #3867
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Ed, Will you be in Australia in November for the Nationals? Would be great to get some feedback from you on the Logan track if you get a chance to run there in the coming months.
Yup, I should be around for that, and Logan is my 'local'
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Old 07-06-2012, 11:34 PM   #3868
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Yup, I should be around for that, and Logan is my 'local'
haha!!! (seeya there next weekend mate!!! )

And Logan track is quite grippy when prepped (sugar water). It is natural asphalt track. It has some bumps on the sweepers.

Typical ride height is around 5.2-5.5mm frt and 5.5-5.8mm rr
Typical droop (gauges) is around 5-6mm frt and 4.5-5mm rr

Please feel free to ask away on the Logan thread or PM/message me.

Thanks,

Leonard.
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Old 07-07-2012, 12:38 AM   #3869
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anyone have a front diff in there car yet and if so what fluid are you using?
I find I can drive much smoother over the whole run with a diff vs spool. I do not like the feel of 4 gears in the front as it feels inconsistent thru the run. Lighter oils will give you more turn in. I have settled with 300k 2 Gear gear diff front.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:50 AM   #3870
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Just rebuilding the car today, and remembered one thing that I had forgotten about after last weekend.
Need to be aware of wheel rub on the rear lower shock mounts when running smaller rimmed tyres (like the Ride's I was running), as they can rub under load. I simply cut off some of the material from the outside of the lower joint, and no more rubbing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzaah
I find I can drive much smoother over the whole run with a diff vs spool. I do not like the feel of 4 gears in the front as it feels inconsistent thru the run. Lighter oils will give you more turn in. I have settled with 300k 2 Gear gear diff front.
I personally have only really used Front gear diff's on a number of occasions, when steering is the prime requirement. Also found that less than 500K, and the lost drive off of the corner isn't compensated up enough by the gain in steering. Having said all that, this is for mod mainly.. Blinky stock would be another story (steering is king). But most the time, Spool is the way to go.

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