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Old 02-20-2012, 07:35 AM   #2896
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What part numbers ?

SER160297 14.8 - Grey
SER160298 16.5 - Black
SER160299 19.9 - Green

Those should be correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUCRPTRACER View Post
Anyone had an issue when ordering springs and getting different ones?
I ordered black and greys and got black and greys that are like 40 or 50lbs springs...
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:47 AM   #2897
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I have not read all of your posts, but what class are you running, what is your overall setup including tire choice and type of prep ? Where are you needing rear traction, on power, off power , entry/middle/exit ?

I had rear traction issues when I first built the car. My car is very balanced now, and has enough rear traction, but my issue was caused from an overly aggressive speed controller ramp/programming. I chased my car for two days until I figured out my dumb mistake.

The things I would do for more traction in rear..

More rear Toe,
More front droop
Softer springs/oil
Roll center... remove the shims on the hinge pin blocks - shim camber links
Change wheelbase ( as previously suggested )
Lighter diff oil...

With Martin and others on this thread, we can get your car right...




Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlkgliders View Post
I can't tell you guys running outdoors on asphalt how jealous I am that you are finding rear bite. I guess it's the tightness of our low traction technical trac that is throwing me.
Congrats on your testing.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:00 AM   #2898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielD View Post
Just wanted to say thanks to the Serpent S411 thread as you guys have been no help with answering NONE of my questions I have had about this car.Not even so much as one simple reply saying "Go figure it out youself".Enjoy your crappy thread
I can tell you I was not even checking the forums on Sunday, but expecting a response in under 3 hours is kind of silly. I don't get that from texts sometimes, much less a public forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BAD007SUZUKI View Post
well, since im online, i figure i'd ask. i hate to post another reply but, i have a set of the black springs coming. it says they are 2.9/16.5#. from my understanding the yellows (stock)are 2.8/16#.

for the guys on carpet, does the extra little bit on spring rate make that much difference in the way the car handles cornering? my car currently rolls (side to side) perfectly around corners. im gonna try the blacks but does anyone notice the diffrerence from the yellows to the blacks on the front springs? i use grey in back shocks. low traction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimPotter View Post
What part numbers ?

SER160297 14.8 - Grey
SER160298 16.5 - Black
SER160299 19.9 - Green

Those should be correct.
I am confused, there was a post in this thread that showed something different.

Gray was 2.9/16.5
Green 2.6/14.8
Black 3.5/19.9

All the same colors and numbers, but the colors are all different?
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:05 AM   #2899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjav View Post
New Spring ratings
N/mm lb/inch
White 2,3 13,0
Yellow 2,8 16,0
Orange 3,4 19,5
Red 4,1 23,5
Pink 4,9 28,0
Blue 5,8 33,0
Purple 6,8 39,0
Green 8,0 45,5
Grey 9,0 51,5
Black 10,0 57,0
Quote:
Originally Posted by corallyman View Post
Jimjav,

You have some incorrect numbers on the springs that you posted. This is directly from the Serpent website. These are all TC springs and 23mm in length.


New Spring ratings
N/mm lb/inch
White 2,3 13,0
Grey 2,6 14,8
Yellow 2,8 16,0
Black 2,9 16,5
Orange 3,4 19,5
Green 3,5 19,9
Red 4,1 23,5
Pink 4,9 28,0

Steve
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp View Post
I see the other posts clarified the spring rates associated with the colors I am using as listed below.

green 19.9
orange 19.6
black 16.5
yellow 16
grey 14.8
white 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pattojnr View Post
all the details are on the serpent site.
Green is 2.6/14.8
Grey 2.9/16.5
black 3.5/19.9

so for springs available now
White 2.3/13
Green 2.6/14.8
Yellow 2.8/16
Grey 2.9/16.5
Orange 3.4/19.5
Black 3.5/19.9
Red 4.1/23.5

so the new springs are a slight step (closer) rating to the kit springs.


I am confused...
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:54 AM   #2900
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When I say loose off I am having to really wait for the car to square up out of the corner to add power, I know this is somewhat normal but it is excessive. I am falling behind there especially to the Xrays. I use the same tires as the other guys we are all usually using 28 this time of year. I clean with buggy grip 2 and treat with tire tweak 2000.
I know the balance is there I just need to find it.
my setup basics have been
2mm front spacing
5mm rear spacing
1.25 front camber
2.25 rear camber
5 front downstop
3 rear downstop
both fr and rr shocks 4th from bottom of tower.
by end of day I have increased front downstop stoop up front shocks
and laid down rear.
xray shocks 500 cst front 425 cst rear
orange springs front 1.4 appx 15-16lb and teal rear slightly softer.

The adjustments help the loose rear end a little at the price of a mid corner to exit push situation
I should get the serpent shocks this week from zaraz and I will have yellow orange white black and gray springs coming.
Thanks
Don
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:10 AM   #2901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheZoof View Post
That's interesting.

Here is the list of spring rates/types...


- Spring white L23 (2.3/13) (2) (#160300)
- Spring grey L23 (2.6/14.8) TC (2) (#160297)
- Spring yellow L23 (2.8/16) (2) (#160301)
- Spring black L23 (2.9/16.5) TC (2) (#160298)
- Spring orange L23 (3.4/19.5) (2) (#160302)
- Spring green L23 (3.5/19.9) TC (2) (#160299)
- Spring red L23 (4.1/23.5) (2) (#160303)
- Spring pink L23 (4.9/28) (2) (#160304)
- Spring blue L23 (5.8/33) (2) (#160305)
- Spring purple L23 (6.8/39) (2) (#160306)
- Spring green L23 (8/45.5) (2) (#160307)
- Spring grey L23 (9/51.5) (2) (#160308)
- Spring black L23 (10/57) (2) (#160309)


There are grey and black that are stiffer that are not TC versions.
I made this little list a few pages back for the confusion of springs available. I printed it off and taped it to my pit box so I have zero confusion moving forward.
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:34 PM   #2902
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First which swaybars are you using?
I would recommend to use the 1.4 in front and a 1.2 in the back.

And how are you measuring the downstop?
I'm almost always using 6mm in front and 5mm in the back. Measured from the bottom of the chassis, to the most outer part of the wishbone

Oil in the diff?
As it is low grip i'd try 1500 and two gears.

RoleCenter?
Here i'd try 0.5mm all around. To make the chassis role and thereby generate grip.

I think you are running with to much camber on the rear, try to reduce it. This should allow more of the tire surface.

Your links in the rear should be as long as possible, both on the chassis and on the upright.

Should help

let's us hear how it works out when you have tried it!
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:03 PM   #2903
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Thanks for all the help guys much appreciated.
I am going to hopefully get my serpent shocks this week so I can install them and test. I will then report back after I make the sugested changes.
Thanks Again
Don
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:14 PM   #2904
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he has a lose rear end, why would the longest rear top link fix that would it not make it more lose, I am confused
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:46 PM   #2905
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Default APP WORKS WELL FOR THIS STUFF.

ACCORDING TO SETUP WORKBENCH APP, LOOSE OFF POWER. ONE THING TO TRY IS INCREASING FRONT CAMBER GAIN (SHORT LINKS) AND DECREASING REAR CAMBER GAIN (LONG LINKS). CAMBER GAIN CAN ALSO BE ADDED OR REMOVED WITH SHIMS UNDER THE BALLCUPS. THE MORE INCLINED THE LINKS ARE THE MORE GAIN YOU GET. IM MY EXPERIENCE, LONG LINKS "RELAX" THE CAR AND MAKE IT MORE CONSISTENT. I RUN MY LINKS LONG ON ALL 4 TIRES AND LEVEL OR .5-1MM TALLER INSIDE REAR. AND LEVEL UP FRONT. BUT IM ON LOW TRACTION CARPET.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zaraz View Post
he has a lose rear end, why would the longest rear top link fix that would it not make it more lose, I am confused
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:23 PM   #2906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RasCalDK View Post
First which swaybars are you using?
I would recommend to use the 1.4 in front and a 1.2 in the back.

And how are you measuring the downstop?
I'm almost always using 6mm in front and 5mm in the back. Measured from the bottom of the chassis, to the most outer part of the wishbone

Oil in the diff?
As it is low grip i'd try 1500 and two gears.

RoleCenter?
Here i'd try 0.5mm all around. To make the chassis role and thereby generate grip.

I think you are running with to much camber on the rear, try to reduce it. This should allow more of the tire surface.

Your links in the rear should be as long as possible, both on the chassis and on the upright.

Should help

let's us hear how it works out when you have tried it!
I measure my downstops exactly the way it shows on the setup sheet.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:45 PM   #2907
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Don, I have been running 800wt in my diff, on mid level grip asphalt. What really helped me out was smoothing out the power delivery, and removing the shim under the rear/rear toe block, and putting a .5 shim on the rear/front block.

If your running mod, I would strongly suggest the 3.5 rear block.

I know your getting a bunch of advice, but I think we are pretty much all saying similar things. What would really help... is a complete setup sheet , including motor and class run...

I am sure Martin will have some suggestions too.

BTW, is your chassis dragging in much ?, what is your ride height

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlkgliders View Post
When I say loose off I am having to really wait for the car to square up out of the corner to add power, I know this is somewhat normal but it is excessive. I am falling behind there especially to the Xrays. I use the same tires as the other guys we are all usually using 28 this time of year. I clean with buggy grip 2 and treat with tire tweak 2000.
I know the balance is there I just need to find it.
my setup basics have been
2mm front spacing
5mm rear spacing
1.25 front camber
2.25 rear camber
5 front downstop
3 rear downstop
both fr and rr shocks 4th from bottom of tower.
by end of day I have increased front downstop stoop up front shocks
and laid down rear.
xray shocks 500 cst front 425 cst rear
orange springs front 1.4 appx 15-16lb and teal rear slightly softer.

The adjustments help the loose rear end a little at the price of a mid corner to exit push situation
I should get the serpent shocks this week from zaraz and I will have yellow orange white black and gray springs coming.
Thanks
Don
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:56 PM   #2908
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This is our home track... a nice mix of fast and technical.. medium to medium high grip...
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Serpent S411-track.jpg  
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:29 PM   #2909
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Thanks Tim,
I agree a lot of the sugestions are similar. I am going to make a couple adjustments per recomendation and see what happens.
most are using no spacers under the rear blocks a .5 under the front is something that sounds interesting, basically it is a .5 addition to anti squat right? I thought that could add some push exiting. however I know things get complicated.
I have the 3.5 block coming with springs ( all but grey they are backordered ) from serpent this week. I was going to go with yellow rear orange front or maybe white rear yellow front. any suggestions on oil and pistons?
I will be able to adjust ride height better with the serpent shocks, I have been around 7mm with the xray shocks and that is maxed out for lowest height ( they are t2 version )
I may go back to 4mm spacing in rear I am at 5mm now.
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Old 02-20-2012, 11:40 PM   #2910
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That's how I meant it (downstop measuring)

I'd clearly say that 7 mm is to high! You should run from 5-5,5mm, maybe a bit higher in the front than the back, if you will still have trouble getting grip out of the corners.

To the link question:

If you use short and steep links, highest at the wheel, the geometry will allow the wheel to gain a lot of camber, through the corner. This can make the car nervous to drive, as the camber is changing a lot, depending on how much you make the car role.

As a rule, a good starting point is to setup the links, to be parallel with the wishbone and to be as long as possible. This will make the car easy to drive.

I almost always use 1,5 camber front and 2 back. For me, it makes for an even tire wear, slightly to the inside of the tire.
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