R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 02-14-2012, 02:59 PM   #2836
Tech Regular
 
rdlkgliders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: So. Cal High Desert Hobbies
Posts: 458
Trader Rating: 21 (96%+)
Default

/////......./////
Attached Thumbnails
Serpent S411-2012-02-14-13.50.56.jpg  
__________________
Serpent, KO Propo, Viper, Savox, ProTek
Team Waldorf Racing

Your not lapping me, you just caught up to me again!!!

Last edited by rdlkgliders; 02-14-2012 at 08:49 PM.
rdlkgliders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 05:11 PM   #2837
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 401
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdortch View Post
So, how is this car? I am looking to change from an Xray T3'11, which is for sell by the way. I am sure there will be some biased opinions as this is the S411 thread. But, what are your guys' analysis on the performance of the car? Is it good out of the box? Does it need some options parts? Does it need many setup changes to be good? etc questions.

And, the important question for me, is there confidence there is, and will continue to be adequate parts/setup support?

Thanks
IMO X-ray would get a 1/16th point advantage in fit and finish.. But other than that you won't hear anything but high remarks I have never owned a more responsive and consistent car! It response noticeably to small changes the parts are inexpensive. You will not be disappointed if you switch.
__________________
TEAM Black Ops.
NUCRPTRACER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 05:43 PM   #2838
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 401
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

I have made a lot of comments about shock oil and transitioning on here and i thought of an example that may help...

if you take a small ball like the size of a large marble and you place a pencil on it and balance it like a teeter totter with your fingers, you will notice if you apply pressure evenly from side to side even while rocking it you can control it.. Now if you move quickly the marble slides out the oppisite side...The marble represents your center of gravity and your finger pressure represents dampening or your shock oil..The thicker the oil the slower yet more controlled the movement...the thinner the oil the quicker the movement..in the same way you this works from front to rear controlling the weight transfer...If you use a thicker oil up front I believe you can use this to drive a free car as you can use less toe and camber in certain circumstances..the thicker oil will allow slower transfer to the front of the car keeping weight at the rear..conversely thinner oil in the rear allows that weight to come forward to help traction up front but with the thicker oil upfront it doesnt allow to much transfer to break the rear loose but just enough not to create a push...I dont like to keep throwing heavier springs at a car i would rather make small changes in different area's if you have to jump 3 spring rates there is more than likely another issue your compensating for..using the right oil and springs allows the suspension to work properly and gives you a much better car to drive and an easier one to tune..IMO the less geometry you can use on a car the faster and better it will be and by controlling the weight transfer is the key...Martin please comment if my thinking is wrong here>>>Please
__________________
TEAM Black Ops.
NUCRPTRACER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 06:09 PM   #2839
Tech Master
 
MCSEDanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 1,105
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

While not explaining or helping my situation let me ask this for general knowledge. What difference is to much in front to rear shock oil? Say I am running 25 front and 65 rear am I over compensation for another setup issue. What is that difference that is two much? Is it 40wt, 30wt or what?
__________________
Team Turtle Trax / Loganville RC Raceway
Mugen MBX6TR / Bonito
Kyosho MP9 TKI3 / Plus 4
Kyosho MP9 TKI3 / Electric / WTF
AE B44.3 / ORCA VXX / D4 7.5
MCSEDanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 06:26 PM   #2840
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 401
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSEDanny View Post
While not explaining or helping my situation let me ask this for general knowledge. What difference is to much in front to rear shock oil? Say I am running 25 front and 65 rear am I over compensation for another setup issue. What is that difference that is two much? Is it 40wt, 30wt or what?
I try to stay within 20 to 15...say 60frnt 45 to 40r..25frnt 65rear gees I would have to think on that..
__________________
TEAM Black Ops.
NUCRPTRACER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 06:29 PM   #2841
Tech Master
 
MCSEDanny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 1,105
Trader Rating: 12 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NUCRPTRACER View Post
I try to stay within 20 to 15...say 60frnt 45 to 40r..25frnt 65rear gees I would have to think on that..
So one in my original question reverse the front and rear oil obviously.

Lets go with the same question springs. What is the maximum difference you would have from front to rear.
__________________
Team Turtle Trax / Loganville RC Raceway
Mugen MBX6TR / Bonito
Kyosho MP9 TKI3 / Plus 4
Kyosho MP9 TKI3 / Electric / WTF
AE B44.3 / ORCA VXX / D4 7.5
MCSEDanny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 06:48 PM   #2842
Moderator
 
J.Whiting's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: a very small town in wisconsin that is in the middle of absolutely no where
Posts: 4,523
Trader Rating: 57 (100%+)
Default

i run 50f and 40r or 40f and 30r.. this seems to be the best for our carpet track.. i like to stay within 10-15 weight of front to rear oils.. jeremy
__________________
Jeremy Whiting - serpent america - desoto racing - apicco race engines - RcRenew - jconcepts - Rc Pro Products - ko propo eurus - ko propo servos - VP PowerMaster Fuels - Answer-rc usa - advantage racing products - Parma/pse bodies - serpent 811 2.1 - 811t
J.Whiting is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 07:07 PM   #2843
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post

Just wondering Martin, in your opinion, what would you adjust on the car to try and get more corner speed, or free the car up. If you could give a example similar to what you have done in your App, like start with this and give five steps.
.
As with anything dealing with setups, there are always compromises when trying to get more corner speed. I find the main compromise is drive-ability and consistency. I will often sacrifice a little corner speed in the interest of consistency. So the point here is you can go too far in my opinion and make the car too hard to drive. Having said that here are my thoughts on obtaining more corner speed.

The first thing to look at in your car with its current setup is if the car is currently pushing a little too much or is a little too loose. To maximize corner speed you want both ends of the car to do the steering, not just the back or the front. You also want to watch how your car leans into the corner. You don't want a car that mainly rolls over on the front or mainly on the rear. You want the the car to intially roll on the front on turn-in, but very quickly get the back to roll as you start to enter the corner, otherwise the car will likely push loosing speed, or perhaps traction roll on very high grip carpet tracks. You also don't wan't the back of the car to roll more than the front at mid corner as this can make for a loose car and also cause traction rolls on high grip carpet tracks.

The next thing to focus on is to maximize lateral grip as that is what gives you your cornering abilities. to maximize lateral grip there are a number of things to try an achieve through your setup.
1. maximize contact patch of all four tires....not just the outside tires. This is managed mainly by by roll centers, spring rates, camber gain and static camber. You will need to check your tire wear to make sure you are using as much of the contact patch as possible.

2. minimize the lateral weight transfer from the inside tires to the outside tires. spring rates, roll centers and upper link lengths will affect this. Some may think that swaybars are the way to reduce lateral weight transfer but the technical journals and books I have read indicate that although it does keep the car more flat keeping more weight over the inside tire, there is a competing upward force on the inside tire caused by the swaybar that tends to negate this, and and strong increase in the downward force on the outside tire due to the swaybar that actually ends up in increasing weight transfer to the outside tire. With a higher roll center however, you can keep the car flat without creating this upward force on the inside tire. Swaybars are mainly used for car balance and car consistency and not for increasing lateral grip in other words.

3. Don't let the chassis rub on the driving surface. The moment this happens it takes away downward force from the outside tires, reducing lateral grip. Sometimes I will do this on purpose to avoid traction rolling, but that is only as a last resort.

4. Make sure that what you are asking the tires to do is gradual in nature. You want to make sure that when entering a corner you are not asking the tires to gain lateral grip too quickly both through your throttle and steering technique, but also through your spring rates, shock package, swaybars, roll centers and droop settings. A tire can reach a high level of lateral grip if it approaches that limit more gradually. For example setting up your shock bump dampening to be really stiff or really soft will cause an abrupt "ask" of grip from the tires which will reduce the overall lateral grip limits. Same thing with spring rates...too soft and too hard are not good for the same reasons...you need to experiment and get a feel for what works best at any give track.

5. slip angle is another key factor in achieving lateral grip. In order for a tire to reach it's maximum lateral grip it needs some slip angle. Some tires like a larger slip angle than other tires to achieve their maximum grip. This is a function of the rubber compound and the overall shape and sidewall strength of the tire. Only testing will tell you what works best for a tire. The slip angle is affected by rear toe-in and also by the static toe-out in the front and dynamic toe-out caused by the ackerman settings you use. There is no one right answer here as it really depends on the tire...testing is the only way to find the optimal static and dynamic slip angles for a given tire.

As for the order of how I would approach this...and there are many ways to do this...but here is my personal approach.

1. first start with dialing in the spring and shock dampening package so that the car is not too floppy and not too flat and can transition smoothly into and out of corners. I spend a lot of time on spring rates and shock packages.

2. I then focus an equal if not greater amount of time on my roll centers. My goal is to keep the roll center as high as possible without making the car feel too edgy or traction rolling (on carpet). Lower roll centers will feel smoother during transitioning into and out of corners which is equally important as ultimate lateral grip in terms of driving consistency. In general I tend to drive a medium type of roll center as i find that to be a good compromise between ultimate lateral grip and a smooth driving car.


3. Now I focus on my rear toe-in and often do this in conjunction with the roll center. I was enough rear toe to make the car feel stable on entry and have good forward bite off the corner, without making the car loose all of it's momemtum in the middle of the corner. Again as I said above I want the front an the rear of the car to do the steering..so I work a lot with combinations of front and rear roll centers along with rear toe to find the right amount of roll, rear and front steering. For example if I notice the car is pushing too much in the middle of the corner because the front seemed to be rolling and back of the car was not rolling enough, I would lower the rear roll center (perhaps 0.5 to 1.0mm) and maybe even decrease my rear toe-in by 0.5 degrees as a second step.

All of these concepts are explained in more detail within my app (www.setupworkbench.com), yes I know shameless plug...but I keep hearing from people how much it helps them

Sorry for going on so long...but hopefully this gives you some of idea of how I approach things. Hopefully my ramblings made some sense.

Cheers.
__________________
Martin Crisp
SetupWorkbench.com | Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 07:26 PM   #2844
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 401
Trader Rating: 7 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSEDanny View Post
So one in my original question reverse the front and rear oil obviously.

Lets go with the same question springs. What is the maximum difference you would have from front to rear.
Well Mr.Crisp is the leading authority and his post is full of great info..myself I stick as close as possible with spring rate and all the same is optimal if the car is functioning properly..but normally within a few pounds right now I'm running the black/grey combo
__________________
TEAM Black Ops.
NUCRPTRACER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2012, 07:35 PM   #2845
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCSEDanny View Post
Lets go with the same question springs. What is the maximum difference you would have from front to rear.
sometimes I run the same spring front and rear spring rate if I use the inner holes on the rear arms for the shock mount position. But typically I run between one to two levels different in the shocks and not more when I use the outer hole on the rear arm.

so some of the combinations I like when using the outer hole on the rear arm, hole 4 on the rear shock tower and hole 3 on the front shock tower include the following.

rear front
white gray (can feel like in dives too easily on the nose)
white yellow
gray black
yellow orange (easy to drive, but often does not feel like it generates enough grip or allows enough forward/backward weight transfer for me to control the balance in the corners as much as i like to.)
__________________
Martin Crisp
SetupWorkbench.com | Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 01:33 AM   #2846
Tech Master
 
Benzaah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,966
Trader Rating: 21 (96%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Crisp View Post
sometimes I run the same spring front and rear spring rate if I use the inner holes on the rear arms for the shock mount position. But typically I run between one to two levels different in the shocks and not more when I use the outer hole on the rear arm.

so some of the combinations I like when using the outer hole on the rear arm, hole 4 on the rear shock tower and hole 3 on the front shock tower include the following.

rear front
white gray (can feel like in dives too easily on the nose)
white yellow
gray black
yellow orange (easy to drive, but often does not feel like it generates enough grip or allows enough forward/backward weight transfer for me to control the balance in the corners as much as i like to.)
Martin, If you were going to run on Medium grip asphalt with a 17.5 boosted car where would you start with bars, springs and oils? And what diff oil would you consider? I am using kit set up apart from 2.0/1.5 front blocks, 2.5 rear toe block and long link in the rear with 900cst oil in diff. The Car if quick but for my liking has too much off power rotation which is costing me consistency. I have the car apart currently with the V2 steering going in and I am thinking of changing back to the 3.0 toe plate, 1500 diff oil with black front grey rear springs, 1.2 rear bar and 40/35(550/425) losi oil.

Thoughts are appreciated. Regards Benzaah.
__________________
AERCCC - ARCR - RRCSA

Adelaide RC

Walter Rc Hobby
Benzaah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 07:45 AM   #2847
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzaah View Post
Martin, If you were going to run on Medium grip asphalt with a 17.5 boosted car where would you start with bars, springs and oils? And what diff oil would you consider? I am using kit set up apart from 2.0/1.5 front blocks, 2.5 rear toe block and long link in the rear with 900cst oil in diff. The Car if quick but for my liking has too much off power rotation which is costing me consistency. I have the car apart currently with the V2 steering going in and I am thinking of changing back to the 3.0 toe plate, 1500 diff oil with black front grey rear springs, 1.2 rear bar and 40/35(550/425) losi oil.

Thoughts are appreciated. Regards Benzaah.
I think you are on the right track. I would for sure go to 3.0 rear toe and maybe even 3.5 if you want more stability. I think the black gray is a good combo for asphalt, you may want to also try a yellow/white (F/R) combo and see what you like better. For rear diff, I would first try the rear toe without changing to the 1500 and then try the 1500 and see what works better on that surface. The oils look fine for the shocks (assuming 3 hole pistons). And yes t he 1.2mm rear swaybar would be a good change.

For sure you are on the right track.

Martin.
__________________
Martin Crisp
SetupWorkbench.com | Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 11:06 AM   #2848
Tech Elite
 
Johnny Wishbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,285
Trader Rating: 6 (100%+)
Default

Thanks very much Martin, that was exactly what I was looking for.

So another setup question for you.

I have noticed this on several cars lately, that they look more like a sprint car going thru the corners, almost like the inside front wheel is off the ground or very unloaded. One observation was that its like the rear of the car is trying to screw itself into the track going thru the corners. SO your best guess, what should a person start looking at changing? The cars seem fast and really have no adverse handling effects but just don't think the tire lift is correct.

Thanks again.
__________________
Gary Lanzer
Team VBC HK
Team R1WURKS
Johnny Wishbone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 12:29 PM   #2849
Tech Fanatic
 
Martin Crisp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
Thanks very much Martin, that was exactly what I was looking for.

So another setup question for you.

I have noticed this on several cars lately, that they look more like a sprint car going thru the corners, almost like the inside front wheel is off the ground or very unloaded. One observation was that its like the rear of the car is trying to screw itself into the track going thru the corners. SO your best guess, what should a person start looking at changing? The cars seem fast and really have no adverse handling effects but just don't think the tire lift is correct.

Thanks again.
I don' like seeing that tire lift either. For me it tends to come from running too little front droop with too much rear droop. Try either adding more front droop and/or reducing rear droop. Of course changing the droop will affect the balance of your car, but you can then tune back the balance to the way you like with other setting changes.
__________________
Martin Crisp
SetupWorkbench.com | Power-Story.com | LearnSetup.com
Martin Crisp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2012, 03:12 PM   #2850
Tech Adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 125
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Default

I am hearing there is a team edition that will be released. Does anyone have any insight when that might happen? I am looking to make a switch to the snake but I am contemplating on whether or not I should wait on the team edition or get it now. I am assuming the Team Edition will have items such as the new RCM shocks, V2 steering system, and possibly 2mm top/bottom chassis as standard???
bdortch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Batu Kawan Rc Track Tongga Malaysian R/C Racers 10418 06-28-2016 11:34 PM
DRCW Raceway Chesapeake, VA // Asphalt / Indoor Off Road / Outdoor Off Road stiltskin Racing Forum 10278 11-14-2014 07:39 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 02:52 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net

SEO by vBSEO 3.5.0