Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-12-2011, 09:05 AM
#211
Gag !
These on-roader's sure will ague till the moon turn green rather than let the beginner race & win stock like the old days & the experience racers race mod and everyone having fun ...
I blame Roar for it all ....
These on-roader's sure will ague till the moon turn green rather than let the beginner race & win stock like the old days & the experience racers race mod and everyone having fun ...
I blame Roar for it all ....
01-12-2011, 09:15 AM
#212
The real issue here is programmability and having the timing features available in the esc’s at all. The fear is that if the esc can advance the timing someone will slip it out of blinky mode and cheat. Fear of a few people cheating seems like a weak foundation to dictate everyone’s choices and make thousands of esc’s illegal from all the leading manufacturers that people already own.
All the manufacturers supplied a blinky mode as requested. A decent argument can be made that it falls to the governing bodies to include it in the tech process rather than everyone lose their freedom of choice to make it easier for them.
We all agree we need a slower class and even power for close racing.
We all agree spec mode or non boosting esc’s help get us there with existing motors and make it easier for some.
We all agree it is popular at some tracks.
The fact is the blinky modes and non boosting esc’s are all equal.
Most of us agree we need a middle class where dynamic timing still has a place. Something between slow and stupid crazy fast for us wanna be mod drivers. Also at large events the expense and time is huge to run 1 class.
I realize what I am opening up by saying this so let’s just get it done. 208 was an honest misunderstood mistake and it was corrected quickly and for free. If nothing else it shows we are motivated to police each other and the updatability is not an issue anyone has to worry about.
Programability comes down to a little extra tech effort after the race if there are any questions. The blinking leds indicating spec mode are pretty easy to see. Ours in particular are obnoxious on purpose.
Tekin Prez
All the manufacturers supplied a blinky mode as requested. A decent argument can be made that it falls to the governing bodies to include it in the tech process rather than everyone lose their freedom of choice to make it easier for them.
We all agree we need a slower class and even power for close racing.
We all agree spec mode or non boosting esc’s help get us there with existing motors and make it easier for some.
We all agree it is popular at some tracks.
The fact is the blinky modes and non boosting esc’s are all equal.
Most of us agree we need a middle class where dynamic timing still has a place. Something between slow and stupid crazy fast for us wanna be mod drivers. Also at large events the expense and time is huge to run 1 class.
I realize what I am opening up by saying this so let’s just get it done. 208 was an honest misunderstood mistake and it was corrected quickly and for free. If nothing else it shows we are motivated to police each other and the updatability is not an issue anyone has to worry about.
Programability comes down to a little extra tech effort after the race if there are any questions. The blinking leds indicating spec mode are pretty easy to see. Ours in particular are obnoxious on purpose.
Tekin Prez
01-12-2011, 09:22 AM
#214
01-12-2011, 09:22 AM
#215
Having a ROAR Stock Spec class is great for club racing where everyone is just out to unwind (if you have a job), have fun and go home.
But this class should no be a National level class. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a racing specification that is electronically limited. Never worked in the past, and will never work in the future with any form of racing. To prove the point (I am an Engineer), ask any ESC manufacturers to guarantee (with financial bonding and penalties) that their systems are unhackable. If they could, then they would be in to the electronic voting machine business and make more money.
ROAR should make all specification for the STOCK SPEC class be scrutinizable by mechanical means. If it cannot be checked by a tape measure, scale, caliper, or template, then the spec is too complicated and open for cheating - immediately. Hell, we cannot even find 2 electronic scales at a R/C race that show the same weight.
That is why NASCAR has all mechical specifications. Their scales are certified and stamped. Even adding simple electronic fuel injection would destroy the class.
My company has a 5 gal. can to calibrate gas station fuel pumps. A regualar 5 gal can cost $18. A certified one cost $600. (Next time you pump gas, check out the pump's inspection sticker.)
We raced Tamiya TCS racing for a few years which is all spec'd down to the Tamiya tires. We realized after travelling a lot that Spec racing in R/C = Cheating. We now watch a Touring Stock Spec class as entertainment as many experienced racers who we know are very "imaginative" race and "shallacks" the field. The poor unprepared loosers go out and buy the tire of the day, body of the day, chassis of day, motor of day thinking that their results will improve.
This cycle is not good for the ROAR or the hobby. The solution for a Stock Spec Class is open up the ESC, use slower mechanical motors (21.5,25.5, etc), and add a lot more weight.
But this class should no be a National level class. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a racing specification that is electronically limited. Never worked in the past, and will never work in the future with any form of racing. To prove the point (I am an Engineer), ask any ESC manufacturers to guarantee (with financial bonding and penalties) that their systems are unhackable. If they could, then they would be in to the electronic voting machine business and make more money.
ROAR should make all specification for the STOCK SPEC class be scrutinizable by mechanical means. If it cannot be checked by a tape measure, scale, caliper, or template, then the spec is too complicated and open for cheating - immediately. Hell, we cannot even find 2 electronic scales at a R/C race that show the same weight.
That is why NASCAR has all mechical specifications. Their scales are certified and stamped. Even adding simple electronic fuel injection would destroy the class.My company has a 5 gal. can to calibrate gas station fuel pumps. A regualar 5 gal can cost $18. A certified one cost $600. (Next time you pump gas, check out the pump's inspection sticker.)
We raced Tamiya TCS racing for a few years which is all spec'd down to the Tamiya tires. We realized after travelling a lot that Spec racing in R/C = Cheating. We now watch a Touring Stock Spec class as entertainment as many experienced racers who we know are very "imaginative" race and "shallacks" the field. The poor unprepared loosers go out and buy the tire of the day, body of the day, chassis of day, motor of day thinking that their results will improve.
This cycle is not good for the ROAR or the hobby. The solution for a Stock Spec Class is open up the ESC, use slower mechanical motors (21.5,25.5, etc), and add a lot more weight.
01-12-2011, 09:30 AM
#216
Everything you posted is GREAT for club racing! But this is mainly going to affect the Nationals. Do you really want to turn the Nationals into the "US Backyard Basher Nationals"? Actually Yes. I want to see the ROAR Stock National Champion be someone that none of us have ever heard of or seen in a magazine. Everyone knows that clubs and tracks will run what ever suits their racers best for weekly racing which is perfect! Thats what they should be doing. I agree.
Yang had a great idea as creating rules for several different classes for use through ROAR and allow each track (For nationals) to pick what best suits THEIR track size and region. This won't work. The main reason is that it gives the local guy that much more of an advantage. Nationally followed rules are the only way to go. We need more tracks to follow ROAR's set rules but it's hard to do since there are tracks that have already created their own. It's a double edged sword. Sounds pretty simple to me as long as we (ROAR) dont do anything stupid and create more new odd classes that are not needed. After all if you read the National guidelines now the only REQUIRED classes at the Nationals are Mod classes because of IFMAR tie ins for the Worlds. This is correct as IFMAR World Championships do not crown a "Stock World Champion" As for our National Champions we need to create a step stone path to get to the Worlds. We as an IFMAR block (Canada and USA) need to cultivate and grow racers to compete at this level. We need the more serious club racers to step up and become our future World Champions. Handing a boosted XX.5 motored car to one of them and wishing them good luck isn't going to do it. We need a serious yet reasonable start even for the Regional and National level.
And speaking of Off road wonder what they are going to think when they find out they will have to follow the same guidelines. Clearing a Double is going to be fun in 2wd buggy with a 21.5 and zero timing! LOL (Uhm Off Road is going 17.5 non boost /fixed to aid with the 3rd dimension)
EA
Yang had a great idea as creating rules for several different classes for use through ROAR and allow each track (For nationals) to pick what best suits THEIR track size and region. This won't work. The main reason is that it gives the local guy that much more of an advantage. Nationally followed rules are the only way to go. We need more tracks to follow ROAR's set rules but it's hard to do since there are tracks that have already created their own. It's a double edged sword. Sounds pretty simple to me as long as we (ROAR) dont do anything stupid and create more new odd classes that are not needed. After all if you read the National guidelines now the only REQUIRED classes at the Nationals are Mod classes because of IFMAR tie ins for the Worlds. This is correct as IFMAR World Championships do not crown a "Stock World Champion" As for our National Champions we need to create a step stone path to get to the Worlds. We as an IFMAR block (Canada and USA) need to cultivate and grow racers to compete at this level. We need the more serious club racers to step up and become our future World Champions. Handing a boosted XX.5 motored car to one of them and wishing them good luck isn't going to do it. We need a serious yet reasonable start even for the Regional and National level.
And speaking of Off road wonder what they are going to think when they find out they will have to follow the same guidelines. Clearing a Double is going to be fun in 2wd buggy with a 21.5 and zero timing! LOL (Uhm Off Road is going 17.5 non boost /fixed to aid with the 3rd dimension)
EA
01-12-2011, 09:31 AM
#217
Tech Master
iTrader: (10)
Having a ROAR Stock Spec class is great for club racing where everyone is just out to unwind (if you have a job), have fun and go home.
But this class should no be a National level class. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a racing specification that is electronically limited. Never worked in the past, and will never work in the future with any form of racing. To prove the point (I am an Engineer), ask any ESC manufacturers to guarantee (with financial bonding and penalties) that their systems are unhackable. If they could, then they would be in to the electronic voting machine business and make more money.
ROAR should make all specification for the STOCK SPEC class be scrutinizable by mechanical means. If it cannot be checked by a tape measure, scale, caliper, or template, then the spec is too complicated and open for cheating - immediately. Hell, we cannot even find 2 electronic scales at a R/C race that show the same weight. That is why NASCAR has all mechical specifications. Their scales are certified and stamped. Even adding simple electronic fuel injection would destroy the class.
My company has a 5 gal. can to calibrate gas station fuel pumps. A regualar 5 gal can cost $18. A certified one cost $600. (Next time you pump gas, check out the pump's inspection sticker.)
We raced Tamiya TCS racing for a few years which is all spec'd down to the Tamiya tires. We realized after travelling a lot that Spec racing in R/C = Cheating. We now watch a Touring Stock Spec class as entertainment as many experienced racers who we know are very "imaginative" race and "shallacks" the field. The poor unprepared loosers go out and buy the tire of the day, body of the day, chassis of day, motor of day thinking that their results will improve.
This cycle is not good for the ROAR or the hobby. The solution for a Stock Spec Class is open up the ESC, use slower mechanical motors (21.5,25.5, etc), and add a lot more weight.
But this class should no be a National level class. It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a racing specification that is electronically limited. Never worked in the past, and will never work in the future with any form of racing. To prove the point (I am an Engineer), ask any ESC manufacturers to guarantee (with financial bonding and penalties) that their systems are unhackable. If they could, then they would be in to the electronic voting machine business and make more money.
ROAR should make all specification for the STOCK SPEC class be scrutinizable by mechanical means. If it cannot be checked by a tape measure, scale, caliper, or template, then the spec is too complicated and open for cheating - immediately. Hell, we cannot even find 2 electronic scales at a R/C race that show the same weight.
That is why NASCAR has all mechical specifications. Their scales are certified and stamped. Even adding simple electronic fuel injection would destroy the class.My company has a 5 gal. can to calibrate gas station fuel pumps. A regualar 5 gal can cost $18. A certified one cost $600. (Next time you pump gas, check out the pump's inspection sticker.)
We raced Tamiya TCS racing for a few years which is all spec'd down to the Tamiya tires. We realized after travelling a lot that Spec racing in R/C = Cheating. We now watch a Touring Stock Spec class as entertainment as many experienced racers who we know are very "imaginative" race and "shallacks" the field. The poor unprepared loosers go out and buy the tire of the day, body of the day, chassis of day, motor of day thinking that their results will improve.
This cycle is not good for the ROAR or the hobby. The solution for a Stock Spec Class is open up the ESC, use slower mechanical motors (21.5,25.5, etc), and add a lot more weight.
It's a lot more difficult to hack a ESC when the hardware link (hotwire, novalink or program box) isn't being sold. A hacker would need to hack the firmware and find the specs for the hardware link which the manufacturer only knows.
01-12-2011, 09:43 AM
#218
EA
01-12-2011, 09:43 AM
#219
you misunderstand my statement. i did not say that each club can choose their own rules for each class. what i said is that each club can choose the classes that they use to compete locally, but to have rules defined for each class. the idea may be to have a spec 17.5, 17.5 boost, spec 13.5, 13.5 boost, and mod. then the clubs choose among these classes, but each class has well defined rules. this allows clubs to run what is popular in the area.
01-12-2011, 09:57 AM
#220
you misunderstand my statement. i did not say that each club can choose their own rules for each class. what i said is that each club can choose the classes that they use to compete locally, but to have rules defined for each class. the idea may be to have a spec 17.5, 17.5 boost, spec 13.5, 13.5 boost, and mod. then the clubs choose among these classes, but each class has well defined rules. this allows clubs to run what is popular in the area.
EA
01-12-2011, 10:08 AM
#221
Coming Soon: Mechanical ESC's and Brushed Motors. Increased wiring costs and complex flashing lights sequences are too much for the entry hobbyist who apparently we want to draw to run in Regional and National Competitions where the travel and lodging costs far exceed the cost of his equipment. 
01-12-2011, 10:09 AM
#222
If going to all unboosted classes means we can get back to differentiating our ESC's by how smooth they are rather than how fast they go on the straight, I'm all in. But banning existing ESC's, or trying to kill the "middle" class is a mistake.
Is ROAR really hiding on their forum saying "la la la I can't hear you?" If the public's perception of you is so bad you have run away, then you've pretty much already lost credibility. Why do we even care what ROAR does? The biggest races that matter to anybody certainly don't. We should just crown our national champions with the winners of Snowbirds (since IIC seems to be defunct, and it's in the beginning of the season) and be done with it.
Is ROAR really hiding on their forum saying "la la la I can't hear you?" If the public's perception of you is so bad you have run away, then you've pretty much already lost credibility. Why do we even care what ROAR does? The biggest races that matter to anybody certainly don't. We should just crown our national champions with the winners of Snowbirds (since IIC seems to be defunct, and it's in the beginning of the season) and be done with it.
01-12-2011, 10:13 AM
#223
Tech Master
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Land of high taxes and bad football
Posts: 1,807
Trader Rating: 3 (100%+)
Coming Soon: Mechanical ESC's and Brushed Motors. Increased wiring costs and complex flashing lights sequences are too much for the entry hobbyist who apparently we want to draw to run in Regional and National Competitions where the travel and lodging costs far exceed the cost of his equipment.
01-12-2011, 10:16 AM
#224
I've seen and been to a lot of races. For onroad I can see having a slower class.
Spec esc with a 21.5 seems reasonable for the "Amatuer/Sportsman" class. However there needs to be a class between this and open Mod. 17.5 Boosted seems to be this class. It will allow the majority of racers to continue to use the exsisting equipment they've already invested in(esc's and motors).
Spec esc with a 21.5 seems reasonable for the "Amatuer/Sportsman" class. However there needs to be a class between this and open Mod. 17.5 Boosted seems to be this class. It will allow the majority of racers to continue to use the exsisting equipment they've already invested in(esc's and motors).
01-12-2011, 10:21 AM
#225
Forgive me- I literally just walked back into RC.. I have done a search= but what is the problem with this V208? Why was it deemed Illegal over previous versions? Is V212 just a redraw of 208 with a blinking light mode?
might be wrong place, wrong time.. but EA only replies to my emails when he has NOTHING better to do
might be wrong place, wrong time.. but EA only replies to my emails when he has NOTHING better to do