Proposed R.O.A.R. rules change
01-13-2011, 08:32 AM
#316
I disagree with this. I think there should be at least a beginner class, in a major racing class, i.e. stock tc and not TA, at all "big" events - whatever you want to call it i.e. novice, sportsman, or whatever the name. It is hard for the new guy to go to an event where he is the slowest one there and get a chance to drive and learn when he is constantly trying to stay out of the way, especially if he is trying to drive and not mess up the faster guys. I have been this guy and have watched others struggle with it. Newer racers go to big events to advance themselves and learn from faster guys and broaden their racing experience. And it is a pain in the butt to do when you are constantly a back marker in part because you are slower and don't want to mess up someone else's run and because you are not that good yet. When the newer racer goes to a big race, they mostly need help in the pits with car setup etc., but they need a class to apply that at that race without constantly being concerned about the guy that is lapping them. If they see they should bump up then that is up to them and the race director.
would you be ok if the novice class and the spec class run in the same heats. after the first resort, then people should be close to where they should be in the heats. but it give the top novice racers a chance to see where they are with respect to the spec class racers. also i would think that the top novices in the combined heats would also be recognized in the awards.
I am just thinking if the novice class were to follow the spec class rules, but have limits on battery capacity, motor timing, and spec speedos, then the speeds would be close enough to run them together in smaller events. but this give the opportunity to have a lower price entry class and at bigger events they could split the classes out based on entries
so spec would be what we have now, blinky class. and novice or whatever you call it would be. 17.5 motors with lock timing, non programmable speedos, and battery cap to minimize cost. similar to what was posted earlier. i would also like to see a limit to the time a competitor can compete in novice. if a racer stays in for 1 year, they are prob going to upgrade their equipment anyways and then they would be a spec racer.
this is what we have at our local track. we have guys that just jump into racing, so they can get a gtb or lrp speedo for next to nothing, the old 1s 4000 packs for free and a 17.5ss for a steel. they still run with our spec racers. and the ones that stay committed usually are in the middle of the pack and then start to upgrade.
Last edited by theisgroup; 01-13-2011 at 08:43 AM.
01-13-2011, 08:39 AM
#317
Tim, doesn't qualifying kinda do that?
A-main Pro
B-main Expert
C-main Sportsman
Hey, just having fun! I know there need to be deliniation of classes and equipment, but am still not sure what they should be. If you designate sportsman as a no-timing class, they are drivers who will choose it to avoid competing against better drivers......and driver's will choose classes that are WAY over their ability level. Kind of a no win situation.
A-main Pro
B-main Expert
C-main Sportsman
Hey, just having fun! I know there need to be deliniation of classes and equipment, but am still not sure what they should be. If you designate sportsman as a no-timing class, they are drivers who will choose it to avoid competing against better drivers......and driver's will choose classes that are WAY over their ability level. Kind of a no win situation.
01-13-2011, 08:56 AM
#319
would you be ok if the novice class and the spec class run in the same heats. after the first resort, then people should be close to where they should be in the heats. but it give the top novice racers a chance to see where they are with respect to the spec class racers. also i would think that the top novice in the combined heats would also be recognized in the awards.
I am just thinking if the novice class were to follow the spec class rules, but have limits on battery capacity, motor timing, and spec speedos, then the speeds would be close enough to run them together in smaller events. but this give the opportunity to have a lower price entry class and at bigger events they could split the classes out based on entries
so spec would be what we have now, blinky class. and novice or whatever you call it would be. 17.5 motors with lock timing, non programmable speedos, and battery cap to minimize cost. similar to what was posted earlier. i would also like to see a limit to the time a competitor can compete in novice. if a racer stays in for 1 year, they are prob going to upgrade their equipment anyways and then they would be a spec racer.
I am just thinking if the novice class were to follow the spec class rules, but have limits on battery capacity, motor timing, and spec speedos, then the speeds would be close enough to run them together in smaller events. but this give the opportunity to have a lower price entry class and at bigger events they could split the classes out based on entries
so spec would be what we have now, blinky class. and novice or whatever you call it would be. 17.5 motors with lock timing, non programmable speedos, and battery cap to minimize cost. similar to what was posted earlier. i would also like to see a limit to the time a competitor can compete in novice. if a racer stays in for 1 year, they are prob going to upgrade their equipment anyways and then they would be a spec racer.
I definitely think they could be combined after you figured out where everyone stood as a racer. The faster novice racer might be able to run with the seasoned racer. And they should get the chance to do that. I think the new guy should be able to run all the "pro" level equipment and get the chance to learn to use it to the best of his ability, and not have the pressure of having to drive as well as someone that has been racing for 20+ years. I am relatively new to this hobby and see what it is like to have all the new things thrown at you at once. My first "bigger" race was like learning all over again. I would just like to make it a softer step for the newer guy that wants to attend bigger events to improve their skill. This is one of the reasons I am concerned with, but not opposed to, timing in speedos.
01-13-2011, 09:00 AM
#320
This has been one of the most constructive threads in a long while.
The one issue in the whole discussion that has been overlooked however is track size in conjunction with class/motor combination.
Let's say that the average sq footage of any given track within a region is 3400 sq ft. Should not then, the class/motor structure be determined by the physical restrictions of the facilities?
At a 3500 sq ft carpet track, I personally, do to skill level impedements
, would never consider running a boosted 13.5 TC, 1/12 is another matter. Our carpet tracks in the US seem to be on aqverage, around the 3500-4000 sq ft range. This of course does not include the larger special events, IIC, Birds and a few others. Within region 5, I do not believe there are any carpet tracks left that exceed the 4000 ft range.
Based upon that, why not structure the TC class's,as has, in one way or another already been mentioned.
For tracks with less than 4000 sq ft
25.5 VTA
21.5 open esc with non-boosted 17.5, (it does work well together)
Boosted/Supercharged 17.5
Tracks over 4000 sq ft.
25.5 VTA
Boosted/Supercharged 17.5
13.5, your choice esc
Mod
Asphalt Tracks tend to be larger and more open so of course faster speed are a given.
The other "class" that everyone seems to forget for the new hobbyist is VTA. Or for the speed junkies WGT, I know they are not a favorite at some tracks. VTA, however seems to offer that restricted, slower, easier and fun factor driving experience and instant gratification that our society has come to demand from the younger generations, with what seems to be consistent 1 second slower lap times from non-boosted 17.5.(examples are from past results of the Midwest Grandslam and Hurricane Series).
Prohibiting a product,whether by brand or design, that most already have, I do not think is the right decision. People will spend money on what THEY percieve they need to be faster, regardless if it is what they actual need. Let them, in some cases it helps to keep the LHS open and the track lights on for racers to have somewhere to race and potential new blood to see what they could be a part of.
The one issue in the whole discussion that has been overlooked however is track size in conjunction with class/motor combination.
Let's say that the average sq footage of any given track within a region is 3400 sq ft. Should not then, the class/motor structure be determined by the physical restrictions of the facilities?
At a 3500 sq ft carpet track, I personally, do to skill level impedements
, would never consider running a boosted 13.5 TC, 1/12 is another matter. Our carpet tracks in the US seem to be on aqverage, around the 3500-4000 sq ft range. This of course does not include the larger special events, IIC, Birds and a few others. Within region 5, I do not believe there are any carpet tracks left that exceed the 4000 ft range.Based upon that, why not structure the TC class's,as has, in one way or another already been mentioned.
For tracks with less than 4000 sq ft
25.5 VTA
21.5 open esc with non-boosted 17.5, (it does work well together)
Boosted/Supercharged 17.5
Tracks over 4000 sq ft.
25.5 VTA
Boosted/Supercharged 17.5
13.5, your choice esc
Mod
Asphalt Tracks tend to be larger and more open so of course faster speed are a given.
The other "class" that everyone seems to forget for the new hobbyist is VTA. Or for the speed junkies
WGT, I know they are not a favorite at some tracks. VTA, however seems to offer that restricted, slower, easier and fun factor driving experience and instant gratification that our society has come to demand from the younger generations, with what seems to be consistent 1 second slower lap times from non-boosted 17.5.(examples are from past results of the Midwest Grandslam and Hurricane Series).Prohibiting a product,whether by brand or design, that most already have, I do not think is the right decision. People will spend money on what THEY percieve they need to be faster, regardless if it is what they actual need. Let them, in some cases it helps to keep the LHS open and the track lights on for racers to have somewhere to race and potential new blood to see what they could be a part of.
01-13-2011, 09:12 AM
#321
Stock should be, ummmm "stock".
I race touring 17.5 open speedo touring car and yea, the power is impressive, but it is also more expensive than mod and harder to figurer out.
That being said, IMO, you fix the whole deal by not running boosted ESCs (brings the cost down substantially) and run a sealed 15.5 (no timing change) motors. I think 17.5 is a little slow un-boosted, but 15.5 or 13.5 is a fast enough for a dirt car on a straitaway to make jump and obsticles.
I race touring 17.5 open speedo touring car and yea, the power is impressive, but it is also more expensive than mod and harder to figurer out.
That being said, IMO, you fix the whole deal by not running boosted ESCs (brings the cost down substantially) and run a sealed 15.5 (no timing change) motors. I think 17.5 is a little slow un-boosted, but 15.5 or 13.5 is a fast enough for a dirt car on a straitaway to make jump and obsticles.
01-13-2011, 09:41 AM
#322
I think ROAR should look at the classes run by IIC and the Snowbirds.
Amatuer : 21.5 Non-Boosted - Handout motor/Esc
Stock: 17.5 Non-Boosted
Super Stk: 17.5 Boosted
Mod
It seemed to work really well at IIC and if we wait a few weeks we'll know how it works in Florida.
Regards,
Carter
Amatuer : 21.5 Non-Boosted - Handout motor/Esc
Stock: 17.5 Non-Boosted
Super Stk: 17.5 Boosted
Mod
It seemed to work really well at IIC and if we wait a few weeks we'll know how it works in Florida.
Regards,
Carter
. I don't agree with people with the 13.5 boosted as that middle super stock class, i think 13.5 boosted on most tracks is going to be very close to mod times. I like the 17.5boosted cause it lets drivers still tune like they did with brushes and springs 17.5 blinky stock
17.5 boosted super stock
Mod
this would also let guys keep the same ESC and motor combo and then just go to a diffent mode in the esc and race the next level or let guys at big races with lots of time between rds run 1 chassis and make a simple spur/pinion change and plug into the laptop??? if there is interest for a 21.5 blinky in certain areas/regions run it if you want . . .
01-13-2011, 09:50 AM
#323
21.5 non boosted can not rescue this skill-hobby.
21.5 non boosted can not rescue ROAR events by increasing participation.
What 21.5 non boosted can do is give entry level drivers a place to play with--- themselves-- because the only other participants will be 17.5 class drivers moving down for whatever reason. The number of these club racers that will participate in ROAR events is ? very small.
What 21.5 non boosted class can do is decrease the number of 17.5 class racers. Some will see opportunity of a sort and a very few will like the pace. Some 17.5er's may like that as there will be less slower traffic to get Through in the B or C main if it goes that far. Real result --less people in the main class again.
If there are racers that decide these speeds are where they want to remain then there are already VTA or RC-GT or some other purposely slowed down non boosted realistic class. Now that could be the niche ROAR is looking to draw into the events but that will not increase numbers at club level.
Sorry ROAR but this group will not create the increase in attendance at National or even Regional level events purported by this move.
17.5 non boosted has already proven to be a great "Amateur" level class at national level events. It is also supported at the club level where it competes directly with 21.5 Boosted!!! not non boosted. Again one tooth away from burning it up.
The purpose of the impending rules is to do away with boosted classes.
Dress it in any skirt you want. Pick which villain got their whisper in someone's ear. Tekin too successful -- hurting other Mfg sales. HW/SP can't get up to speed in stock not boosted class or one I have failed to see posted yet and prefer, LRP wants back the huge market for the crack they were selling us in the speedo of the month for years.
So, the options now revert back to the pre-boosted days and we get 13.5 back-- Hooray!
Don't gasp because if the 21.5 screwing goes through the skill/speed gap will require a class faster than 17.5 non boosted but less than Mod. You cannot force people to move into mod. It is to fast and to expensive for all but the few(sponsored).
Non boosted 17.5 will not keep the interest of anyone that ran 13.5 or faster when boosted burst onto the scene. It will in very short order require a faster class--- whoops too late it is already required to get people to travel to National level events. Again real result-- less people in the main class.
So kill boosted if you want -- maybe we do get back some of the motor feeling as we move into the new classes.
VTA--- Non ROAR -- OK OK
17.5 stock-- non boosted
13.5 Non boosted---could add in 17.5 boosted--- super stock
Mod--- for those appropriately talented 20-30 at national level----
12Th stock----13.5 non boosted---- not the let me check if the lead paint tastes as good as I remember when I was riding the short bus class of 17.5 UN booooooosted!
You cannot increase participation in this skill-hobby by adding a class at the bottom and trying to mandate participation.
I do not understand why it is so hard to see the difference in spec and stock.
But if you are going to mandate the demise of boosted, and again that is what this is, then at least have the fore sight to spec a stock speedo and not let the spec change for say 3 years. Since we also already know it can be done for $60 then make that the cap price so there is no incentive to those who know who they are to change one spec or FET and start a change war.
If the intent is to set the groundwork for a spec class then that is what it is. There will still need to be 2 TC classes above it and still below mod. We have to leave something for all those young future talents to shoot for.
Now, since none of that will be done, and the decision has already been made to dismember boosted, let the existing blinky or whatever stock speedo's have at it with the new unboosted classes and we can get to using all those 13.5's that are on work benches.
Practice to begin immediately with 13.5 non boosted --- for next years new mandated class!!!
Hey, there is a thought for all the Engineering and technology that went into making dynamic timing!
We can redirect it/them to embroider logos on pink skirts for non boosted 17.5 class. No, we can't do that, someone would finish before the others and then they would be branded a cheater in a pink skirt!
Later,
Darrald Spencer
Current participant in 17.5(stock) non boosted class and 17.5 open when available.
Definitely better at the pink skirt class than open!
21.5 non boosted can not rescue ROAR events by increasing participation.
What 21.5 non boosted can do is give entry level drivers a place to play with--- themselves-- because the only other participants will be 17.5 class drivers moving down for whatever reason. The number of these club racers that will participate in ROAR events is ? very small.
What 21.5 non boosted class can do is decrease the number of 17.5 class racers. Some will see opportunity of a sort and a very few will like the pace. Some 17.5er's may like that as there will be less slower traffic to get Through in the B or C main if it goes that far. Real result --less people in the main class again.
If there are racers that decide these speeds are where they want to remain then there are already VTA or RC-GT or some other purposely slowed down non boosted realistic class. Now that could be the niche ROAR is looking to draw into the events but that will not increase numbers at club level.
Sorry ROAR but this group will not create the increase in attendance at National or even Regional level events purported by this move.
17.5 non boosted has already proven to be a great "Amateur" level class at national level events. It is also supported at the club level where it competes directly with 21.5 Boosted!!! not non boosted. Again one tooth away from burning it up.
The purpose of the impending rules is to do away with boosted classes.
Dress it in any skirt you want. Pick which villain got their whisper in someone's ear. Tekin too successful -- hurting other Mfg sales. HW/SP can't get up to speed in stock not boosted class or one I have failed to see posted yet and prefer, LRP wants back the huge market for the crack they were selling us in the speedo of the month for years.
So, the options now revert back to the pre-boosted days and we get 13.5 back-- Hooray!
Don't gasp because if the 21.5 screwing goes through the skill/speed gap will require a class faster than 17.5 non boosted but less than Mod. You cannot force people to move into mod. It is to fast and to expensive for all but the few(sponsored).
Non boosted 17.5 will not keep the interest of anyone that ran 13.5 or faster when boosted burst onto the scene. It will in very short order require a faster class--- whoops too late it is already required to get people to travel to National level events. Again real result-- less people in the main class.
So kill boosted if you want -- maybe we do get back some of the motor feeling as we move into the new classes.
VTA--- Non ROAR -- OK OK
17.5 stock-- non boosted
13.5 Non boosted---could add in 17.5 boosted--- super stock
Mod--- for those appropriately talented 20-30 at national level----
12Th stock----13.5 non boosted---- not the let me check if the lead paint tastes as good as I remember when I was riding the short bus class of 17.5 UN booooooosted!
You cannot increase participation in this skill-hobby by adding a class at the bottom and trying to mandate participation.
I do not understand why it is so hard to see the difference in spec and stock.
But if you are going to mandate the demise of boosted, and again that is what this is, then at least have the fore sight to spec a stock speedo and not let the spec change for say 3 years. Since we also already know it can be done for $60 then make that the cap price so there is no incentive to those who know who they are to change one spec or FET and start a change war.
If the intent is to set the groundwork for a spec class then that is what it is. There will still need to be 2 TC classes above it and still below mod. We have to leave something for all those young future talents to shoot for.
Now, since none of that will be done, and the decision has already been made to dismember boosted, let the existing blinky or whatever stock speedo's have at it with the new unboosted classes and we can get to using all those 13.5's that are on work benches.
Practice to begin immediately with 13.5 non boosted --- for next years new mandated class!!!
Hey, there is a thought for all the Engineering and technology that went into making dynamic timing!
We can redirect it/them to embroider logos on pink skirts for non boosted 17.5 class. No, we can't do that, someone would finish before the others and then they would be branded a cheater in a pink skirt!
Later,
Darrald Spencer
Current participant in 17.5(stock) non boosted class and 17.5 open when available.
Definitely better at the pink skirt class than open!
01-13-2011, 10:01 AM
#324
13.5 with no boost... I really hope this is the way of the future. If its not i hope its what we do at our local track anyway.
01-13-2011, 10:20 AM
#325
Tech Champion
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Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In a land of mini-mighty mental giants
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Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Going faster is not going to solve any issues....Just say no to 13.5 motors in Sedan
. This year we have the 17.5 non boosted class and racing in that class has never been better. Its a lot like it use to be with 27t brushed motors and 6 cells. Slower seems to be working from the carpet tracks that I have been to.
To say it again....
Any track with the straight 115ft or less
21.5 non boost
17.5 non boost
17.5 boosted
Any track with a straight over 120ft
17.5 non boosted
17.5 boosted
Mod
Some of you guys need to realize that if the classes are made more accessible to more people then maybe just maybe more people will race more. To keep doing what we are doing isn’t working....and going back to what we did before when that didnt work isn’t going to work now. Take the good that we have now and expand it....like it or not this is the most logical way to go about it.
. This year we have the 17.5 non boosted class and racing in that class has never been better. Its a lot like it use to be with 27t brushed motors and 6 cells. Slower seems to be working from the carpet tracks that I have been to. To say it again....
Any track with the straight 115ft or less
21.5 non boost
17.5 non boost
17.5 boosted
Any track with a straight over 120ft
17.5 non boosted
17.5 boosted
Mod
Some of you guys need to realize that if the classes are made more accessible to more people then maybe just maybe more people will race more. To keep doing what we are doing isn’t working....and going back to what we did before when that didnt work isn’t going to work now. Take the good that we have now and expand it....like it or not this is the most logical way to go about it.
01-13-2011, 10:38 AM
#327
Tech Champion
iTrader: (32)
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In a land of mini-mighty mental giants
Posts: 8,854
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
It does make it simple....but what it looks like ROAR is going towards is a new type of ESC....so then all these blinky/boosted ESC's will be wasted....so this way you can still use your boosted ESC. The 13.5 non boosted class is fine if we can keep our current ESC's....but that doesn’t look like what ROAR is wanting to do...and I don’t blame them with what happened with V208. The Blinky class is great but there is always the chance of something being miscalculated or a type-o.
One Cheap ESC like the Cirtix solves all the issues....60 bucks...and go have at it....but then what to do with all the other ESCs????
01-13-2011, 10:41 AM
#328
Well I've been reading this thread waiting on the phone to ring from roar to ask what I would like to see happen. You may ask who the he'll is this guy? I'm the guy this is all aimed at. I've been racing for 3 years now from the day I picked up my first transmitter I have been hooked. I consider myself to be a sportsman level and I have traveled to some bigger races to test my nutz per say. At the Novak last year I ran sportsman 17.5 non boosted I wasn't on the track with the ringers and in the end I could compair my times to faster drivers in 17.5 non boosted because we ran the same stuff and then there was 17.5 boosted then mod oyea they had ta there too which I ran in. I see no problem with the model and rules Scotty had for this race but as the race director u will just have to have the balls to tell someone they are too fast for sportsman and move them into the more skilled 17.5 non boosted group.
No need to pm me thanking me for solving the problem
No need to pm me thanking me for solving the problem
01-13-2011, 10:47 AM
#330
True man- true. (replace roar)
Once upon a time- ROAR races meant something. There was a regional every year and it was BIG!
Now= the biggest races in the world are put on privately. (Reedy, IIC, Cleveland (yikes), cactus classic, losi race, ect)
Perhaps these entities should MERGE??
Once upon a time- ROAR races meant something. There was a regional every year and it was BIG!
Now= the biggest races in the world are put on privately. (Reedy, IIC, Cleveland (yikes), cactus classic, losi race, ect)
Perhaps these entities should MERGE??