1/10 CAR SETUP WTH !!
11-29-2010, 08:48 PM
#1
1/10 CAR SETUP WTH !!
What is the Deal !!!
I was trying to increase stability going down the straight away.
I have read several 1/10 scale setup guides on the subject of Toe-In / Toe-out and what affect it has on the car. Depending on the setup guide, they all seem to contradict eachother on this subject.
Some touring car setup guides say toe-in makes the car more stable on the straights and easier to drive.... other guides say front toe-out makes the car stable on the straights and provides more sability...thus making the car easier to drive.
I drive an XRAY T3... and their setup guide says Toe In Increases understeer. decreases steering at corner entry, Increases “nervousness, makes car more difficult to drive....
and Toe Out Decreases understeer, Increases steering at corner entry, Increases straight-line stability and Makes car easier to drive.
Competition X and R/C Car Handling and Scarlet seem to say the exact opposite.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHICH GUIDE IS CORRECT ???? Most folks I know run .5 degree Toe-out. Maybe im reading the setup guides wrong.
I posted the links for some of these guides below
http://users.telenet.be/elvo/
http://www.competitionx.com/rc-tunin...oe-in-toe-out/
http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/tc/print.htm
http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/sho...p?file_id=2525
I was trying to increase stability going down the straight away.
I have read several 1/10 scale setup guides on the subject of Toe-In / Toe-out and what affect it has on the car. Depending on the setup guide, they all seem to contradict eachother on this subject.
Some touring car setup guides say toe-in makes the car more stable on the straights and easier to drive.... other guides say front toe-out makes the car stable on the straights and provides more sability...thus making the car easier to drive.
I drive an XRAY T3... and their setup guide says Toe In Increases understeer. decreases steering at corner entry, Increases “nervousness, makes car more difficult to drive....
and Toe Out Decreases understeer, Increases steering at corner entry, Increases straight-line stability and Makes car easier to drive.
Competition X and R/C Car Handling and Scarlet seem to say the exact opposite.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WHICH GUIDE IS CORRECT ???? Most folks I know run .5 degree Toe-out. Maybe im reading the setup guides wrong.
I posted the links for some of these guides below
http://users.telenet.be/elvo/
http://www.competitionx.com/rc-tunin...oe-in-toe-out/
http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/tc/print.htm
http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/sho...p?file_id=2525
11-29-2010, 09:02 PM
#2
I setup my car to have toe-out in the front and toe-in in the back.
11-29-2010, 09:24 PM
#3
Tech Addict
Pretty much everyone uses toe-out up front, ALWAYS use toe-in in the rear - toe-out would make it incredibly hard to drive all over, like having rear-end steering added.
11-29-2010, 09:37 PM
#4
Everything in chassis setup is a balance.
When it comes to front toe, Toe-in will add to straight line stability, but it won't "commit" to corner entry as readily, sometimes making it feel as if there's a "delay" between your input and the car's reaction. If you "chase" the car's steering on the straight, you can actually hurt straight line stability because weight is transferring side to side and every time you center the steering, the outside tire is going to still try to drive toward the car's centerline.
Zero toe can add it's own inconsistency as every steering input will have a delay until any suspension/steering slop in the linkages is taken up by the cornering forces. On the straight these forces are a lot less, so in extreme cases the wheels could fight for control with the amount of slop available and make the car do all sorts of strange things.
Front Toe-out can be thought of as adding a little "pre" akerman angle. It should be relatively stable on the straight, but be willing to change directions very willingly while still being in complete control. Because of this, steering corrections should be kept very small on the straight because any steering will happen without hesitation.
A pretty standard front toe setting for me is between 0.5-1.5 degrees toe out TOTAL. Opinions vary widely, but almost everyone will tell you to run front toe-out.
Rear toe is nearly always toe-in for stability. On acceleration, the most weight transfer is to the rear, so the suspension will try to share the load between the two rear wheels, which will in turn apply power toward the car's center-line. Less rear toe will limit how much the rear "digs in", which effectively loosens up the car, too much rear toe can overheat the tires and lead to an overly loose car as well. Normal range for this is between 2-4 degrees per side per most manufacturer's base setups.
I suggest that toe angles should be set to a recommended value [manufacturer's base settings] for testing, and be used for fine-tuning your setup, unless your tires indicate something is very off, once the rest of your setup and testing is complete.
Hope that helps, again, there's lots of opinions on this subject, this is just my views.
When it comes to front toe, Toe-in will add to straight line stability, but it won't "commit" to corner entry as readily, sometimes making it feel as if there's a "delay" between your input and the car's reaction. If you "chase" the car's steering on the straight, you can actually hurt straight line stability because weight is transferring side to side and every time you center the steering, the outside tire is going to still try to drive toward the car's centerline.
Zero toe can add it's own inconsistency as every steering input will have a delay until any suspension/steering slop in the linkages is taken up by the cornering forces. On the straight these forces are a lot less, so in extreme cases the wheels could fight for control with the amount of slop available and make the car do all sorts of strange things.
Front Toe-out can be thought of as adding a little "pre" akerman angle. It should be relatively stable on the straight, but be willing to change directions very willingly while still being in complete control. Because of this, steering corrections should be kept very small on the straight because any steering will happen without hesitation.
A pretty standard front toe setting for me is between 0.5-1.5 degrees toe out TOTAL. Opinions vary widely, but almost everyone will tell you to run front toe-out.
Rear toe is nearly always toe-in for stability. On acceleration, the most weight transfer is to the rear, so the suspension will try to share the load between the two rear wheels, which will in turn apply power toward the car's center-line. Less rear toe will limit how much the rear "digs in", which effectively loosens up the car, too much rear toe can overheat the tires and lead to an overly loose car as well. Normal range for this is between 2-4 degrees per side per most manufacturer's base setups.
I suggest that toe angles should be set to a recommended value [manufacturer's base settings] for testing, and be used for fine-tuning your setup, unless your tires indicate something is very off, once the rest of your setup and testing is complete.
Hope that helps, again, there's lots of opinions on this subject, this is just my views.
11-29-2010, 09:39 PM
#5
The reason they contradict on front toe is because it depends on many other factors.
I can take two of the exact same cars, let's say Xray T3s. I can put a different set-up on each one and give them to two different drivers. My instructions to these two drivers will be to experiment with front toe, both in and out in different amounts, document its effect and write a report for me. Because of the way I have set each car up, the reports I get from the two drivers will be exactly opposite from the other.
That being said, most any properly set-up car is going to work best with a small amount of front toe-out. A car that works better with toe-in probably needs more ackerman in the steering geometry.
I can take two of the exact same cars, let's say Xray T3s. I can put a different set-up on each one and give them to two different drivers. My instructions to these two drivers will be to experiment with front toe, both in and out in different amounts, document its effect and write a report for me. Because of the way I have set each car up, the reports I get from the two drivers will be exactly opposite from the other.
That being said, most any properly set-up car is going to work best with a small amount of front toe-out. A car that works better with toe-in probably needs more ackerman in the steering geometry.
11-29-2010, 09:43 PM
#6
The reason they contradict on front toe is because it depends on many other factors.
I can take two of the exact same cars, let's say Xray T3s. I can put a different set-up on each one and give them to two different drivers. My instructions to these two drivers will be to experiment with front toe, both in and out in different amounts, document its effect and write a report for me. Because of the way I have set each car up, the reports I get from the two drivers will be exactly opposite from the other.
I can take two of the exact same cars, let's say Xray T3s. I can put a different set-up on each one and give them to two different drivers. My instructions to these two drivers will be to experiment with front toe, both in and out in different amounts, document its effect and write a report for me. Because of the way I have set each car up, the reports I get from the two drivers will be exactly opposite from the other.
That being said, most any properly set-up car is going to work best with a small amount of front toe-out. A car that works better with toe-in probably needs more ackerman in the steering geometry.
11-30-2010, 02:58 AM
#7
Ok cool, I have always run Toe-in in the rear.
As you said, Wingracer, I have been playing with the front Toe, .5 Toe-In & .5 Toe-out. I seem to like the Toe-in a little better.
I varied slightly from the XRAY rubber carpet setup.... with the shocks inclined a tad bit more a a little heavier shock oil weight all the way round. Other than that and the front toe-in I havent bothered it.
I guess what confused me was that these were basic setup guides and they didnt say under what conditions front Toe-in or Toe-out was better.... They all made a genral statement.... I could see if they had said front toe-in was better if the shocks or the rest of the car was setup this way or that way.... or dido for front toe-out... but i would think all basic 1/10 scale TC setups would say something simular in reference to this subject. I think I got it now though....
HarryLeach, I havent tried toe out in a while so i will go back to that and see how it drives... It looks like its just personal preference combined with driving style and a few other setup factors. Its been hard to find any setup sheets with toe-in being used so i could compare the rest of their setup with mine.... so its all pretty much been experimental.
Thanks all for the responses.
As you said, Wingracer, I have been playing with the front Toe, .5 Toe-In & .5 Toe-out. I seem to like the Toe-in a little better.
I varied slightly from the XRAY rubber carpet setup.... with the shocks inclined a tad bit more a a little heavier shock oil weight all the way round. Other than that and the front toe-in I havent bothered it.
I guess what confused me was that these were basic setup guides and they didnt say under what conditions front Toe-in or Toe-out was better.... They all made a genral statement.... I could see if they had said front toe-in was better if the shocks or the rest of the car was setup this way or that way.... or dido for front toe-out... but i would think all basic 1/10 scale TC setups would say something simular in reference to this subject. I think I got it now though....
HarryLeach, I havent tried toe out in a while so i will go back to that and see how it drives... It looks like its just personal preference combined with driving style and a few other setup factors. Its been hard to find any setup sheets with toe-in being used so i could compare the rest of their setup with mine.... so its all pretty much been experimental.
Thanks all for the responses.
11-30-2010, 03:29 AM
#8
XRAY's setup guides are a bit dubious. Elvo's setup guide (that you have already listed) is probably the best one out there - and it is free!
Normally you would expect toe-in to generate stability.
However, a car with driven front wheels will normally be set up with a smidge of toe-out. When you are running, the geometry of the front suspension will make the wheels toe-in back to zero under power, taking out the slack in the linkages. This gives neutral steering response on power, and a little extra steering off power.
Personally I don't bother playing with toe-in on the front end beyond that. Problems with stability are more often a problem with the chassis or radio setup.
Normally you would expect toe-in to generate stability.
However, a car with driven front wheels will normally be set up with a smidge of toe-out. When you are running, the geometry of the front suspension will make the wheels toe-in back to zero under power, taking out the slack in the linkages. This gives neutral steering response on power, and a little extra steering off power.
Personally I don't bother playing with toe-in on the front end beyond that. Problems with stability are more often a problem with the chassis or radio setup.
11-30-2010, 03:42 AM
#9
HarryLeach, I havent tried toe out in a while so i will go back to that and see how it drives... It looks like its just personal preference combined with driving style and a few other setup factors. Its been hard to find any setup sheets with toe-in being used so i could compare the rest of their setup with mine.... so its all pretty much been experimental.
My last TC was a T1FK'05, and my new one is a T3'11 waiting to be built. One thing I've noticed is the cars that were built to run rubber or foam [as opposed to rubber mainly as we have now] tend to have a lot more akermann than I need or want. I would try going back to a bit of toe out in the front, and if the car is too twitchy, or scrubs a lot of speed in the corners, try reducing your akermann before you try to add any more. It's entirely possible that you'll like the car better with more akermann, but I really kind of doubt that.
Are you running boosted 17.5, or zero timing? Power level is going to have a fairly large impact on setup as well.
However, a car with driven front wheels will normally be set up with a smidge of toe-out. When you are running, the geometry of the front suspension will make the wheels toe-in back to zero under power, taking out the slack in the linkages. This gives neutral steering response on power, and a little extra steering off power.
Personally I don't bother playing with toe-in on the front end beyond that. Problems with stability are more often a problem with the chassis or radio setup.
11-30-2010, 04:11 AM
#10
Can anyone comment on a front diff, spool or one-way affecting toe in or toe out settings?
I've found i like a little toe in with a front diff on a tighter outdoor track.
However, i switched the car over to a front spool on a large outdoor track and find i like toe out better.
I've found i like a little toe in with a front diff on a tighter outdoor track.
However, i switched the car over to a front spool on a large outdoor track and find i like toe out better.
11-30-2010, 04:57 AM
#11
Before I could remotely think of what's going on for you to like one or the other with a spool versus a diff, I'd need to know what you didn't like about running toe out with a diff and toe in with a spool.
I'm pretty sure it's going to come back to properly setting your akermann to suit your driving style and the track though, combined with the different slip characteristics of the tires with a spool versus a diff.
I'm pretty sure it's going to come back to properly setting your akermann to suit your driving style and the track though, combined with the different slip characteristics of the tires with a spool versus a diff.
11-30-2010, 05:11 AM
#12
Can anyone comment on a front diff, spool or one-way affecting toe in or toe out settings?
I've found i like a little toe in with a front diff on a tighter outdoor track.
However, i switched the car over to a front spool on a large outdoor track and find i like toe out better.
I've found i like a little toe in with a front diff on a tighter outdoor track.
However, i switched the car over to a front spool on a large outdoor track and find i like toe out better.
Having said that, it's seems logical that you would prefer more toe-out with the spool. The spool takes away turn-in, the toe-out will give some back.
11-30-2010, 06:02 AM
#13
Again, setup is always a compromise, and it has to suit your driving style. If you're not comfortable with something the car is doing, you can't drive it for all it's worth without worrying about it doing something crazy.
My last TC was a T1FK'05, and my new one is a T3'11 waiting to be built. One thing I've noticed is the cars that were built to run rubber or foam [as opposed to rubber mainly as we have now] tend to have a lot more akermann than I need or want. I would try going back to a bit of toe out in the front, and if the car is too twitchy, or scrubs a lot of speed in the corners, try reducing your akermann before you try to add any more. It's entirely possible that you'll like the car better with more akermann, but I really kind of doubt that.
Are you running boosted 17.5, or zero timing? Power level is going to have a fairly large impact on setup as well.
I agree with this for a small amount of toe-out. Guys that run 1.5-2 degrees toe-out would have to have a lot of slop in the steering to see zero toe on power.
Another good point. If you have it on your radio, expo is your friend.
My last TC was a T1FK'05, and my new one is a T3'11 waiting to be built. One thing I've noticed is the cars that were built to run rubber or foam [as opposed to rubber mainly as we have now] tend to have a lot more akermann than I need or want. I would try going back to a bit of toe out in the front, and if the car is too twitchy, or scrubs a lot of speed in the corners, try reducing your akermann before you try to add any more. It's entirely possible that you'll like the car better with more akermann, but I really kind of doubt that.
Are you running boosted 17.5, or zero timing? Power level is going to have a fairly large impact on setup as well.
I agree with this for a small amount of toe-out. Guys that run 1.5-2 degrees toe-out would have to have a lot of slop in the steering to see zero toe on power.
Another good point. If you have it on your radio, expo is your friend.
Im running 17.5 with boost and turbo. timing on motor is two nothes from max. duo 2. i will go back with .5 toe out and see what that gives me.
11-30-2010, 11:07 AM
#15
i had a little steering slop... so i replaced all ball joints and made sure all screws were tightened.