F1 Why 2wd?
11-08-2010, 05:22 AM
#46
There's no need to bother ROAR, just make what you are going to make. The last time F1 was run at a National was the 1998 Carpet Nats. The biggest F1 crowds are at Tamiya races, which don't affect you either.
Making stuff is cool, but in the end what works? I don't know except for what wins. The cars below were run in the RC F1 GP series in Japan, and the pictures came off of their website. From what i can tell, all the winners are based off of a 103 style design (straight axle, fixed lower front arm). This is probably the only competitive F1 series in the world outside of Tamiya races, in that several aftermarket manufacturers have teams running for them.
If you can make a car to beat what is out there now, that's awesome. I sort of have my doubts given the same power train you're going to beat a straight axle car. When dirt ovals got super smooth 20 years ago they started racing 52 ounce straight axle pan cars and beat all the 2wd independent suspension dirt cars.
At the same time, F1 is kind of a niche thing. The recent popularity is great. TOP is supposed to be launching a car as well. Changing what everyone thinks of as the requirements of the class (straight axle, 2wd) is not the way to go before it gets off the ground. At the same time, my personal feelings are that touring cars are becoming less popular due to their complexity among other things. The simplicity of a Tamiya F103 for example has helped them have a resurgence.
Making stuff is cool, but in the end what works? I don't know except for what wins. The cars below were run in the RC F1 GP series in Japan, and the pictures came off of their website. From what i can tell, all the winners are based off of a 103 style design (straight axle, fixed lower front arm). This is probably the only competitive F1 series in the world outside of Tamiya races, in that several aftermarket manufacturers have teams running for them.
If you can make a car to beat what is out there now, that's awesome. I sort of have my doubts given the same power train you're going to beat a straight axle car. When dirt ovals got super smooth 20 years ago they started racing 52 ounce straight axle pan cars and beat all the 2wd independent suspension dirt cars.
At the same time, F1 is kind of a niche thing. The recent popularity is great. TOP is supposed to be launching a car as well. Changing what everyone thinks of as the requirements of the class (straight axle, 2wd) is not the way to go before it gets off the ground. At the same time, my personal feelings are that touring cars are becoming less popular due to their complexity among other things. The simplicity of a Tamiya F103 for example has helped them have a resurgence.
11-08-2010, 06:03 AM
#47
I'm really interested in this subject.
I think independant rear suspension would be great to see on an rwd f1 car even though it would increase wear and tear costs.
A few things worth considering.
I think foam tires are a must, rubber is not progressive enough for rear wheel drive and resonable amounts of power. With rubber once traction is lost the grip falls off a cliff, with foam you get much more progressive slip. So if you overcook the power or braking you have a chance of recovery.
A gear differential, this will help reduce on power oversteer. Spins the inside wheel leave the outside wheel to concentrate on lateral grip.
A true offroad type slipper clutch, you always get torque spikes with electric motos and that's why slipper are so usefull in rwd. Having a gear diff means a slipper is a must.
Proper CVD, using ballibearings same as full size, will help loads on a rwd. (titanuim racing do them I think)
These things should make a rwd rc car much more forgiving.
Front outboard disc brakes would be good from high speed straights with hair pin bends at the end but in the main I don't think they would be needed.
Could even make electronic traction control with front and rear wheel sensors.
I think independant rear suspension would be great to see on an rwd f1 car even though it would increase wear and tear costs.
A few things worth considering.
I think foam tires are a must, rubber is not progressive enough for rear wheel drive and resonable amounts of power. With rubber once traction is lost the grip falls off a cliff, with foam you get much more progressive slip. So if you overcook the power or braking you have a chance of recovery.
A gear differential, this will help reduce on power oversteer. Spins the inside wheel leave the outside wheel to concentrate on lateral grip.
A true offroad type slipper clutch, you always get torque spikes with electric motos and that's why slipper are so usefull in rwd. Having a gear diff means a slipper is a must.
Proper CVD, using ballibearings same as full size, will help loads on a rwd. (titanuim racing do them I think)
These things should make a rwd rc car much more forgiving.
Front outboard disc brakes would be good from high speed straights with hair pin bends at the end but in the main I don't think they would be needed.
Could even make electronic traction control with front and rear wheel sensors.
11-08-2010, 06:05 AM
#48
The car might be old but those motors only came out a couple of years ago
11-08-2010, 08:03 AM
#50
interesting in how the most PITA class and upkeep car is the most popular(TC), kinda throws all theories out the window if ya ask me! TC is a money pit to say the least, i have thrown more money in this class over the past six months than i have in mini-z in three years! i dont think that cost of the car should even be in the equation, how many 140.00 exotec kits have been sold over the past month, they cant keep them in stock, so that puts the f1's at about 400.00 right off the bat for the chassis and nobody is complaining. not only that but to be honest f1 is not a class for beginners they are simply too hard to drive and setup for a newbie, granted they are more simple but frustrating if you dont know RC basics.
11-08-2010, 11:43 AM
#51
11-08-2010, 11:49 AM
#52
interesting in how the most PITA class and upkeep car is the most popular(TC), kinda throws all theories out the window if ya ask me! TC is a money pit to say the least, i have thrown more money in this class over the past six months than i have in mini-z in three years! i dont think that cost of the car should even be in the equation, how many 140.00 exotec kits have been sold over the past month, they cant keep them in stock, so that puts the f1's at about 400.00 right off the bat for the chassis and nobody is complaining. not only that but to be honest f1 is not a class for beginners they are simply too hard to drive and setup for a newbie, granted they are more simple but frustrating if you dont know RC basics.
It's not hard at all to set up (a bit of diff oil on the suspension pads and your set for the weekend).
Only thing that is sort of a pain is truing foam tires (if your track runs them) and burning up 540j motors (but most of the time that's self inflected
).We have a mix of new guys and seasoned drivers that run together and they are all very fast.
11-08-2010, 01:53 PM
#53
More to the point, they were not at the front. Cars based off a straight axle, fixed lower arm design were dominant. If cars like that are allowed to race, and an IRS was better, would we not see the niche and aftermarket companies bringing equipment out to take advantage of that?
11-08-2010, 01:56 PM
#54
interesting in how the most PITA class and upkeep car is the most popular(TC), kinda throws all theories out the window if ya ask me! TC is a money pit to say the least, i have thrown more money in this class over the past six months than i have in mini-z in three years! i dont think that cost of the car should even be in the equation, how many 140.00 exotec kits have been sold over the past month, they cant keep them in stock, so that puts the f1's at about 400.00 right off the bat for the chassis and nobody is complaining. not only that but to be honest f1 is not a class for beginners they are simply too hard to drive and setup for a newbie, granted they are more simple but frustrating if you dont know RC basics.
11-08-2010, 04:05 PM
#55
Tech Adept
I love technology and bling and all that stuff as much as the next guy but I prefer the simplicity and longevity of current F1.
If I need any more of that fancy stuff I'll update my TC
F1 has appeal because (most) people take the effort to make believable paint schemes - they look like replicas on track. It is simple and like anything simple it is hard to do well.
My view is that rewriting rules to "improve" a class is a recipe to disaster. The current strength of the class is that you can buy an old F103, (I have been soundly beaten by a F102), and be competitive. Once anyone "feels" that a new chassis has an advantage, it becomes a must have, and you start a downward spiral in entries as you get on the treadmill of latest, yet more expense, upgrades.
KISS is a good principle.
Just my 2c
Cheers
Peter
If I need any more of that fancy stuff I'll update my TC
F1 has appeal because (most) people take the effort to make believable paint schemes - they look like replicas on track. It is simple and like anything simple it is hard to do well.
My view is that rewriting rules to "improve" a class is a recipe to disaster. The current strength of the class is that you can buy an old F103, (I have been soundly beaten by a F102), and be competitive. Once anyone "feels" that a new chassis has an advantage, it becomes a must have, and you start a downward spiral in entries as you get on the treadmill of latest, yet more expense, upgrades.
KISS is a good principle.
Just my 2c
Cheers
Peter
11-08-2010, 06:22 PM
#56
Why F1 with 2wd? Cause they're a lot of fun if you like to be challenged on a tight road course but at the same time, they're simple enough for a beginner class.
Here's one of mines that I just finished doing a little mod work on.
For one, i trimmed the underside of the front suspension block ~ 5mm to bring (& lower) the front axle closer to the frame.
Second, I removed the spacers that go under the rear motor pod to bring (& lower) the entire motor pod ~ 5mm closer to the frame.
I removed the spacers that go on the front king pins and added a 2nd coil spring on top.
BTW, i'm running a novak 10.5 on 2S 4000mah lipos and love ripping this baby around the carpet track.
Here's one of mines that I just finished doing a little mod work on.
For one, i trimmed the underside of the front suspension block ~ 5mm to bring (& lower) the front axle closer to the frame.
Second, I removed the spacers that go under the rear motor pod to bring (& lower) the entire motor pod ~ 5mm closer to the frame.
I removed the spacers that go on the front king pins and added a 2nd coil spring on top.
BTW, i'm running a novak 10.5 on 2S 4000mah lipos and love ripping this baby around the carpet track.
11-08-2010, 06:54 PM
#57
The Tamiya F201 didn't stick around as long as F101 - F103 series did. In full size racing, formula one does not get enough audience in U.S. There is however American Lemans series with lot of prototype and GT cars. I like to see more kits with LeMans prototype body.
11-09-2010, 04:49 AM
#58
It must have been a real mom and pop deal, since one car has a Corally Assassin drive train, and the other looks like Schumacher and Tamiya mini parts.
More to the point, they were not at the front. Cars based off a straight axle, fixed lower arm design were dominant. If cars like that are allowed to race, and an IRS was better, would we not see the niche and aftermarket companies bringing equipment out to take advantage of that?
More to the point, they were not at the front. Cars based off a straight axle, fixed lower arm design were dominant. If cars like that are allowed to race, and an IRS was better, would we not see the niche and aftermarket companies bringing equipment out to take advantage of that?
1/10 RC F1 is faster in scale than real F1 is. Maybe real F1 should be looking at the F103 instead of us looking at real F1 for ideas.
11-09-2010, 07:04 AM
#59
If someone were to bring an updated version of this:
http://d-drivesportsenglish.blogspot...kyosho-f1.html
I'd be all over it!
http://d-drivesportsenglish.blogspot...kyosho-f1.html
I'd be all over it!
11-09-2010, 11:37 AM
#60
That was one of the coolest cars Kyosho ever made. Unfortunately the gearbox left a lot to be desired.