Thoughts on classes with no timing or boost
11-01-2010, 05:27 PM
#106
This discussion is dumb, the people that have a problem with boost are the ones that drive deeper division into the billions of classes we already have because they want to win club races every week.
"Boost is too hard for me to wrap my mind around and it means that I won't be in the A-Main every week waaahhhhh!!!!
"
So lets make soooo many classes that everyone will win right?
At our local track the only 12th scale class offered is 13.5 non-boosted. Is it slow? yes. Are the turnouts great? Your damn right they are. That's all that matters.
"Boost is too hard for me to wrap my mind around and it means that I won't be in the A-Main every week waaahhhhh!!!!
"So lets make soooo many classes that everyone will win right?
At our local track the only 12th scale class offered is 13.5 non-boosted. Is it slow? yes. Are the turnouts great? Your damn right they are. That's all that matters.
11-01-2010, 05:47 PM
#107
I have been racing on and off for well over 20 years now and I just enjoy racing. I will run the classes availabe because I enjoy the hobby, people and compitition. What I do not enjoy is the fact that we feel we need 10 different classes to keep everyone happy. This is just silly!
Most of my racing up until lately, you had two classes. Stock and Mod (Why again is this so difficlut!!!)
Designate two simple classes and go racing (Per car type obviously!)
Either 21.5 or 17.5 class (No Timing)
Mod Class Anything with timing and any motor...
Most often there is a limited amount of motor you can even put down and the guys who can run a 7.5 and clean up are most likely the same guys who would win with a 10.5 or a 13.5 motor...
I am really sick of hearing people complain about he cost aspect... It is racing and yes most of us do not have unlimited budgets to apply to racing, but we have access to equipement that is on par with pretty much the best out there for not nearly the same cost as what we spent years ago... The old battery and motor wars... Now that was costly!
I am a big oval racer and I do not have a huge budget these days and I am confident I have the equipment to be competitive at almost any level of racing I go to (Rather I have the ability is a completely different story!!!)
I used to spend hours and hours on the dyno ($400+) running 2-3 stock ($30 bucks each) motors testing 3-5 different brush and spring combinations (Had a huge box of brushes and spirngs) ($100.00) to find the magic combination! Go and race 2-3 races and then use my comm lather to turn the com (Lathe $200.00) Oh, comm is to small now, need new Arm ($20.00+) and then do it all again before the mains...
Go to run and have everything perfect and relize that I need matched, pushed, zappedd bla bla bla xxxx Mah battery to compete now as that is what all the team guys have!!!
My point is the story above references a cost of over $800.00 in equipment to stay competitive and this was $800.00+ in the lat 90s not todays money!!!
My main point, please stop the down talk about technology and timing, iron out just a few simple classes, go racing and enjoy the fact that it is much less expensive to have top level equipment then it EVER used to be!!!
Most of my racing up until lately, you had two classes. Stock and Mod (Why again is this so difficlut!!!)
Designate two simple classes and go racing (Per car type obviously!)
Either 21.5 or 17.5 class (No Timing)
Mod Class Anything with timing and any motor...
Most often there is a limited amount of motor you can even put down and the guys who can run a 7.5 and clean up are most likely the same guys who would win with a 10.5 or a 13.5 motor...
I am really sick of hearing people complain about he cost aspect... It is racing and yes most of us do not have unlimited budgets to apply to racing, but we have access to equipement that is on par with pretty much the best out there for not nearly the same cost as what we spent years ago... The old battery and motor wars... Now that was costly!
I am a big oval racer and I do not have a huge budget these days and I am confident I have the equipment to be competitive at almost any level of racing I go to (Rather I have the ability is a completely different story!!!)
I used to spend hours and hours on the dyno ($400+) running 2-3 stock ($30 bucks each) motors testing 3-5 different brush and spring combinations (Had a huge box of brushes and spirngs) ($100.00) to find the magic combination! Go and race 2-3 races and then use my comm lather to turn the com (Lathe $200.00) Oh, comm is to small now, need new Arm ($20.00+) and then do it all again before the mains...
Go to run and have everything perfect and relize that I need matched, pushed, zappedd bla bla bla xxxx Mah battery to compete now as that is what all the team guys have!!!
My point is the story above references a cost of over $800.00 in equipment to stay competitive and this was $800.00+ in the lat 90s not todays money!!!
My main point, please stop the down talk about technology and timing, iron out just a few simple classes, go racing and enjoy the fact that it is much less expensive to have top level equipment then it EVER used to be!!!
+1!!!
11-01-2010, 06:33 PM
#108
If you can't bring in new people to the hobby it will die out. Bottom line.
We all love the speed, but insane speeds can be intimidating to prospective new racers.
11-01-2010, 06:42 PM
#109
I've been racing for over 30 years and the insane speeds intimidate me. 
It's not about winning (via multiple classes) or issues with boost. It's about having a slower class that 99% of the racing population can drive.
It's not about winning (via multiple classes) or issues with boost. It's about having a slower class that 99% of the racing population can drive.
11-01-2010, 06:47 PM
#110
You talk'n to me? "Master"
Shouldn't be a problem, if "Sloooooooooooow is your Preference"
And if No Timing is Not "Slooooooooooooow enough", then just disconnect your Battery!
As for me, "Bring on Technology", or atleast allow that option to those with that preference! 
Shouldn't be a problem, if "Sloooooooooooow is your Preference"
And if No Timing is Not "Slooooooooooooow enough", then just disconnect your Battery!
As for me, "Bring on Technology", or atleast allow that option to those with that preference! 
11-01-2010, 06:58 PM
#111
MANY good points here.
Some stated and I agree..Why are we running 17.5 boosted and 17.5 non boosted AND open tc at so many tracks?
Should be stock and mod.
21.5 or 25.5-no boost = stock
OPEN motor/esc=mod
Some stated and I agree..Why are we running 17.5 boosted and 17.5 non boosted AND open tc at so many tracks?
Should be stock and mod.
21.5 or 25.5-no boost = stock
OPEN motor/esc=mod
11-01-2010, 07:24 PM
#112
You talk'n to me? "Master"
Shouldn't be a problem, if "Sloooooooooooow is your Preference"
And if No Timing is Not "Slooooooooooooow enough", then just disconnect your Battery! As for me, "Bring on Technology", or atleast allow that option to those with that preference!
Shouldn't be a problem, if "Sloooooooooooow is your Preference"
And if No Timing is Not "Slooooooooooooow enough", then just disconnect your Battery!
As for me, "Bring on Technology", or atleast allow that option to those with that preference!
11-01-2010, 07:58 PM
#113
I Agree...
I agree there should only be two classes in general, rather it is TC or Oval or what have you.
It is no different than old days of 27T stock and Mod...
Stock should be a speed that is fun but capable of almost any race to get started in and it will be competitive regardless of the speed. Even more fun if you have 5-6+ heats of 6-10 people!
Regarding Open/Mod, it is no different than when I was racing years ago and some tracks I ran a 15 Double, other tracks a 12 Quad and yet others a 9 Single. Being able to select the best motor for the specific needs in mod. Just because you can run a 7.5 or 5.5 does not mean you will be any faster than a smooth 13.5 setup if the traction is not there! Open is Open!
I found this to be very true also running dirt oval this year in my sprint car. In the open class I ran anything from a 4.5 turn to a 13.5 turn and found a 10.5 with timing advance to be the best balance for the track conditions at times.
11-01-2010, 11:53 PM
#114
Lipo + boost + lighter weight limit is much faster than mod ever was a couple years back.
Maybe there is a logic to why Europe went to 5 cells and Japan to 4 cells in the past for MOD racing? MOD became too fast even for factory drivers?
Today MOD is back to 8.4v 50c lipos at a very light weight.
Maybe there is a logic to why Europe went to 5 cells and Japan to 4 cells in the past for MOD racing? MOD became too fast even for factory drivers?
Today MOD is back to 8.4v 50c lipos at a very light weight.
11-02-2010, 01:29 AM
#115
Tech Adept
Our club is thinking about making our "stock" class to be 21.5 pull out the stops and 17.5 spec to allow both the tinkerers and the cheaper spec options. Don't really want to dilute the class. If the 21.5's end up being too fast for the 17.5's maybe we'll re-think the winds. Our mod class is really too fast for some of the tinkerers and wouldn't be fair to the mod drivers.
11-02-2010, 02:57 AM
#116
Let me make my weekly contribution to the weekly ESC timing thread...
It is very unfortunate that a certain speedo manufacturer who shall not be named pushed the boundaries of the zero-timing concept so soon into it's life.
Now it is too easy for people to assume that zero-timing will become a "cheat software" class.
I think that assumption is wrong. Back in the day, it would be easy enough for someone with the right contacts or the right tools to start winding 25 turn arms for 27-turn motors - but people didn't do it, because 99.99% of racers know the difference between maximising their performance within the rules, and plain cheating.
So lets assume that with a tighter set of regulations for ESC software, and a reliable method of scrutineering, nobody is going to cheat, and anyone who does cheat will get caught.
Now we've got that out of the way...
There has to be a place for zero timing racing in the hobby.
Not because I'm a whiner who can't handle the speed, not because I'm a duffus who can't program an ESC - but because a simple hobby attracts more newcomers, and more newcomers can only be good for the sport.
Timed ESC's are too complicated and make our current range of motors too fast.
Drop the timing and the cars become more driveable again, and a lot less hassle.
Granted, there will always be people seeking that extra advantage in a zero-timing environment, with different batteries, different motors, different chassis. Well, that's the nature of competition. The good news is that LiPo's and brushless motors are much more consistent than brushed, so there isn't much to be gained from endlessly swapping electrics.
While we're at it, we should fix the mechanical timing of the motors.
Basically, lets take the electrics back to what Novak gave us with their original sensored system. Zero maintenance, fit-and-forget, consistent performance.
From watching racing in the UK I would suggest a class structure like this...
Stock - 17.5 NO TIMING - controllable and simple for beginners, there are already a lot of these motors in use (21.5 etc is very rare in the UK)
Super Stock - 13.5 TIMED - very fast, lots of these motors in use, allows people to tweak their ESC if they want to (unfortunately it seems the BRCA decided not to drop 10.5 at nationals in favour of 13.5 - will have to wait for the final AGM results to see what has been decided)
Modified - Open - makes far more sense in the LiPo/brushless era than it did in brushed - much too fast for indoors though, and much too fast for 90% of drivers to go any faster with it than they would with a timed 13.5.
It is very unfortunate that a certain speedo manufacturer who shall not be named pushed the boundaries of the zero-timing concept so soon into it's life.
Now it is too easy for people to assume that zero-timing will become a "cheat software" class.
I think that assumption is wrong. Back in the day, it would be easy enough for someone with the right contacts or the right tools to start winding 25 turn arms for 27-turn motors - but people didn't do it, because 99.99% of racers know the difference between maximising their performance within the rules, and plain cheating.
So lets assume that with a tighter set of regulations for ESC software, and a reliable method of scrutineering, nobody is going to cheat, and anyone who does cheat will get caught.
Now we've got that out of the way...
There has to be a place for zero timing racing in the hobby.
Not because I'm a whiner who can't handle the speed, not because I'm a duffus who can't program an ESC - but because a simple hobby attracts more newcomers, and more newcomers can only be good for the sport.
Timed ESC's are too complicated and make our current range of motors too fast.
Drop the timing and the cars become more driveable again, and a lot less hassle.
Granted, there will always be people seeking that extra advantage in a zero-timing environment, with different batteries, different motors, different chassis. Well, that's the nature of competition. The good news is that LiPo's and brushless motors are much more consistent than brushed, so there isn't much to be gained from endlessly swapping electrics.
While we're at it, we should fix the mechanical timing of the motors.
Basically, lets take the electrics back to what Novak gave us with their original sensored system. Zero maintenance, fit-and-forget, consistent performance.
From watching racing in the UK I would suggest a class structure like this...
Stock - 17.5 NO TIMING - controllable and simple for beginners, there are already a lot of these motors in use (21.5 etc is very rare in the UK)
Super Stock - 13.5 TIMED - very fast, lots of these motors in use, allows people to tweak their ESC if they want to (unfortunately it seems the BRCA decided not to drop 10.5 at nationals in favour of 13.5 - will have to wait for the final AGM results to see what has been decided)
Modified - Open - makes far more sense in the LiPo/brushless era than it did in brushed - much too fast for indoors though, and much too fast for 90% of drivers to go any faster with it than they would with a timed 13.5.
11-02-2010, 03:00 AM
#117
i recon it should be 17.5 [stock] open speed controller
mod open motor
mod open motor
11-02-2010, 07:19 AM
#118
Not Sure...
Let me make my weekly contribution to the weekly ESC timing thread...
It is very unfortunate that a certain speedo manufacturer who shall not be named pushed the boundaries of the zero-timing concept so soon into it's life.
Now it is too easy for people to assume that zero-timing will become a "cheat software" class.
I think that assumption is wrong. Back in the day, it would be easy enough for someone with the right contacts or the right tools to start winding 25 turn arms for 27-turn motors - but people didn't do it, because 99.99% of racers know the difference between maximising their performance within the rules, and plain cheating.
So lets assume that with a tighter set of regulations for ESC software, and a reliable method of scrutineering, nobody is going to cheat, and anyone who does cheat will get caught.
Now we've got that out of the way...
There has to be a place for zero timing racing in the hobby.
Not because I'm a whiner who can't handle the speed, not because I'm a duffus who can't program an ESC - but because a simple hobby attracts more newcomers, and more newcomers can only be good for the sport.
Timed ESC's are too complicated and make our current range of motors too fast.
Drop the timing and the cars become more driveable again, and a lot less hassle.
Granted, there will always be people seeking that extra advantage in a zero-timing environment, with different batteries, different motors, different chassis. Well, that's the nature of competition. The good news is that LiPo's and brushless motors are much more consistent than brushed, so there isn't much to be gained from endlessly swapping electrics.
While we're at it, we should fix the mechanical timing of the motors.
Basically, lets take the electrics back to what Novak gave us with their original sensored system. Zero maintenance, fit-and-forget, consistent performance.
From watching racing in the UK I would suggest a class structure like this...
Stock - 17.5 NO TIMING - controllable and simple for beginners, there are already a lot of these motors in use (21.5 etc is very rare in the UK)
Super Stock - 13.5 TIMED - very fast, lots of these motors in use, allows people to tweak their ESC if they want to (unfortunately it seems the BRCA decided not to drop 10.5 at nationals in favour of 13.5 - will have to wait for the final AGM results to see what has been decided)
Modified - Open - makes far more sense in the LiPo/brushless era than it did in brushed - much too fast for indoors though, and much too fast for 90% of drivers to go any faster with it than they would with a timed 13.5.
It is very unfortunate that a certain speedo manufacturer who shall not be named pushed the boundaries of the zero-timing concept so soon into it's life.
Now it is too easy for people to assume that zero-timing will become a "cheat software" class.
I think that assumption is wrong. Back in the day, it would be easy enough for someone with the right contacts or the right tools to start winding 25 turn arms for 27-turn motors - but people didn't do it, because 99.99% of racers know the difference between maximising their performance within the rules, and plain cheating.
So lets assume that with a tighter set of regulations for ESC software, and a reliable method of scrutineering, nobody is going to cheat, and anyone who does cheat will get caught.
Now we've got that out of the way...
There has to be a place for zero timing racing in the hobby.
Not because I'm a whiner who can't handle the speed, not because I'm a duffus who can't program an ESC - but because a simple hobby attracts more newcomers, and more newcomers can only be good for the sport.
Timed ESC's are too complicated and make our current range of motors too fast.
Drop the timing and the cars become more driveable again, and a lot less hassle.
Granted, there will always be people seeking that extra advantage in a zero-timing environment, with different batteries, different motors, different chassis. Well, that's the nature of competition. The good news is that LiPo's and brushless motors are much more consistent than brushed, so there isn't much to be gained from endlessly swapping electrics.
While we're at it, we should fix the mechanical timing of the motors.
Basically, lets take the electrics back to what Novak gave us with their original sensored system. Zero maintenance, fit-and-forget, consistent performance.
From watching racing in the UK I would suggest a class structure like this...
Stock - 17.5 NO TIMING - controllable and simple for beginners, there are already a lot of these motors in use (21.5 etc is very rare in the UK)
Super Stock - 13.5 TIMED - very fast, lots of these motors in use, allows people to tweak their ESC if they want to (unfortunately it seems the BRCA decided not to drop 10.5 at nationals in favour of 13.5 - will have to wait for the final AGM results to see what has been decided)
Modified - Open - makes far more sense in the LiPo/brushless era than it did in brushed - much too fast for indoors though, and much too fast for 90% of drivers to go any faster with it than they would with a timed 13.5.
I agree we need a stock pace class and rather that is 21.5, 25.5, 17.5 timed/no timing. I do not feel we should take away the ability to adjust timing on the motors as this is the only tuning aid we would really have if we take out timing advance on the speedo. Even in the brushed days I had the ability to play with brushes, springs, brushcut to gain and tune motor power band.
I agree we need a fast class for those who want to let it all hang out... Open is Open as it always has been, open motor, speedo and limit battery cell count such as either 1s or 2s.
I just do not see the room for a third class of super stock. It just divides the already dulited classes and causes longer days at the track because we have another 33% of classes to run through.
Less classes, more comp, more fun!
11-02-2010, 08:28 AM
#119
SMH...I can't believe that this issue still exists. What is the REAL problem? Attracting new racers? If it is, then yes timing/boost is a bit much. But if that's the case, so is TC! When I started racing in the early 90's, it was mandatory that I started in a novice class. Rules were: any chassis (most chose a 10L), silver can motor ($8), 1500mAh sport pack ($15) and you couldn't move out of the class untill you achived three wins. This format forced beginners to learn the basics. Nowadays, beginners want to jump right in with seasoned vets, then get rude awakenings. So then after getting spanked, all of a sudden the class is too fast. This ain't jump rope, it's racing! You're supposed to work at getting faster,not slow down the fast guys so you can have a chance at only getting lapped twice (because those fast guys are still gonna lap you)! There should be a novice, stock, and mod class PERIOD! Embrace technology or put your slightly used $500+ RTR TC on the "for sale" thread and buy yourself a jump rope! Man up sissys!
P.S. Get out and VOTE today!
)! There should be a novice, stock, and mod class PERIOD! Embrace technology or put your slightly used $500+ RTR TC on the "for sale" thread and buy yourself a jump rope! Man up sissys! P.S. Get out and VOTE today!
11-02-2010, 09:00 AM
#120
SMH...I can't believe that this issue still exists. What is the REAL problem? Attracting new racers? If it is, then yes timing/boost is a bit much. But if that's the case, so is TC! When I started racing in the early 90's, it was mandatory that I started in a novice class. Rules were: any chassis (most chose a 10L), silver can motor ($8), 1500mAh sport pack ($15) and you couldn't move out of the class untill you achived three wins. This format forced beginners to learn the basics. Nowadays, beginners want to jump right in with seasoned vets, then get rude awakenings. So then after getting spanked, all of a sudden the class is too fast. This ain't jump rope, it's racing! You're supposed to work at getting faster,not slow down the fast guys so you can have a chance at only getting lapped twice (because those fast guys are still gonna lap you)! There should be a novice, stock, and mod class PERIOD! Embrace technology or put your slightly used $500+ RTR TC on the "for sale" thread and buy yourself a jump rope! Man up sissys!
P.S. Get out and VOTE today!
)! There should be a novice, stock, and mod class PERIOD! Embrace technology or put your slightly used $500+ RTR TC on the "for sale" thread and buy yourself a jump rope! Man up sissys! P.S. Get out and VOTE today!
We had a new guy show up last year with a new 17.5 TC,timing speedo,all the bells and whistles,ran the car one night,packed up the pieces and has never come back.
