Brushless overall timing?
10-15-2010, 02:31 PM
#1
Brushless overall timing?
Hello,
I have a quick question.
I have heard about max 60-65 timing on a brushless-motor, but I was suggested to use +10 on the motor (Speed Passion V3), 50 boost and 10 turbo = 70.
So what is the rule of thumb? Can I just tweak my settings according to the temps or is there a limit is should be aware of?
I have a quick question.
I have heard about max 60-65 timing on a brushless-motor, but I was suggested to use +10 on the motor (Speed Passion V3), 50 boost and 10 turbo = 70.
So what is the rule of thumb? Can I just tweak my settings according to the temps or is there a limit is should be aware of?
10-15-2010, 02:37 PM
#2
I have a rule of thumb...
If you are going to use advance on the ESC - DON'T use advance on the motor as well.
Unfortunately the manufacturers have made this difficult to achieve because different motors have different mechanical advance.
Fortunately, the SP v3 motor has a true mechanical 30 degrees in the middle of the slot - the accepted "zero" timing.
I think you must be using a Tekin speedo - isn't it the case that they measure boost and turbo as percentages of 30deg, not actual degrees?
If you are going to use advance on the ESC - DON'T use advance on the motor as well.
Unfortunately the manufacturers have made this difficult to achieve because different motors have different mechanical advance.
Fortunately, the SP v3 motor has a true mechanical 30 degrees in the middle of the slot - the accepted "zero" timing.
I think you must be using a Tekin speedo - isn't it the case that they measure boost and turbo as percentages of 30deg, not actual degrees?
10-15-2010, 02:41 PM
#4
But timing on the motor should work from the start, so +10 on the motor, should give it good acceleration. And only at 5k RPM (my setup), the boost will start.
10-15-2010, 02:42 PM
#5
I think you must be using a Tekin speedo - isn't it the case that they measure boost and turbo as percentages of 30deg, not actual degrees?[/QUOTE]
That is only in dual mode. in sensor only it is in degrees.
I need to take typing lessons, I'm too slow lol!
That is only in dual mode. in sensor only it is in degrees.
I need to take typing lessons, I'm too slow lol!
10-16-2010, 10:43 AM
#6
Really? No-one knows the answer to the question?
10-16-2010, 10:52 AM
#7
Typically 60* total. Motor + Boost + Turbo = 60*
10-16-2010, 11:10 AM
#8
What happens if you go over? Right now I have 3 (motor) + 45 (boost) + 15 (turbo) = 63 - and my temps are REALLY low (43 degrees celcius) on a SP V3 17.5T.
10-16-2010, 12:19 PM
#9
Tech Addict
I would say that the 60 degree limit is probably not an accurate statement at all. The importance of how you apply the timing is probably just as critcal if not more critical.
Of course if you run high overall timing and apply it early, you are going to have all kinds of problems.
A few of us run +10 on SP motors and have no worries at all (and we are running 13.5).
Mike
Of course if you run high overall timing and apply it early, you are going to have all kinds of problems.
A few of us run +10 on SP motors and have no worries at all (and we are running 13.5).
Mike
10-16-2010, 12:56 PM
#10
I would say that the 60 degree limit is probably not an accurate statement at all. The importance of how you apply the timing is probably just as critcal if not more critical.
Of course if you run high overall timing and apply it early, you are going to have all kinds of problems.
A few of us run +10 on SP motors and have no worries at all (and we are running 13.5).
Mike
Of course if you run high overall timing and apply it early, you are going to have all kinds of problems.
A few of us run +10 on SP motors and have no worries at all (and we are running 13.5).
Mike
10-16-2010, 01:26 PM
#11
Tech Fanatic
It depends...
Timing on any motor is more dependent on when the Hall Effect sensor sees the rotor. This depends on the sensor to a limited extent, but more on the clearance between the sensor and the rotor. So, any attempt to say accurately what the timing is on a motor is doomed to failure. All motors come with timing, even when they say 'zero'. Take a look inside the can and see where the sensors are when the marks/inserts say zero - they're hardly anywhere near TDC, or zero!
Let's accept for a moment that wherever the sensor physically is, you have 0 degrees timing. As the motor has three coils, they are spaced 120 degrees apart from centre-of-(magnetic)-field to centre-of-field. Therefore, is you increase the 'timing' beyond 60 degrees, you put the timing point on the edge of one field. There's a chance that the rotor won't clear one 'field' before it sees the next one, and it may stall. So, as a rule-of-thumb, any timing setting beyond 60 degrees is not advisable as you cannot know the motor load when it reaches 60 degrees, and so you risk slowing the motor down and generating excess heat.
As to the practicalities, because you cannot know accurately where the sensor sees the rotor, or where 'zero' is, it is highly likely that some motors will run OK with what appears to be 70 degrees total - 60 degrees is only a rule of thumb after all! - but some won't, and may object by ceasing to function and demanding more $$$ from your credit card!
The problem you all have now is that there are no rules to follow when gearing and timing BL motors. Not only is every motor different, motors with the same model number can behave slightly differently when you get to extremes of timing. Anyone asking "what ratio do I put a 13.5 on?" might just as well ask "how long is a piece of string?" - it depends where you cut it!
The ONLY way to get the best from your motor is to experiment with it. Base settings are fine, and can be copied, but you need to start 15% lower on ratio to see how it goes. Only then can you gradually get up to the ratio you were given, and then try different profiles to see of there's any more speed left to get. The thing to remember is this - a DC electric motor 'retards' as the load build up. That means that if you throw too much timing at it too early, it will just get hot and slow down. The more it can rev, the more timing you can throw at it. So, ratio, motor timing, speedo timing and track requirements must all be factored in, and balanced to get the best lap time.
Sorry that you don't have a single answer to work with. There's an old saying - "If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs, you don't understand the problem!" (With apologies to Rudyard Kipling) Anyone who tells you there is a simple answer doesn't understand the problem!!
My advice is to stick to less than 60 degrees, try any set-up you like but take 15% off the gear ratio to start with, and most of all never let a single race go by where you don't try something different. Write each race settings down, put a lap time next to it, and learn. HTH
Timing on any motor is more dependent on when the Hall Effect sensor sees the rotor. This depends on the sensor to a limited extent, but more on the clearance between the sensor and the rotor. So, any attempt to say accurately what the timing is on a motor is doomed to failure. All motors come with timing, even when they say 'zero'. Take a look inside the can and see where the sensors are when the marks/inserts say zero - they're hardly anywhere near TDC, or zero!
Let's accept for a moment that wherever the sensor physically is, you have 0 degrees timing. As the motor has three coils, they are spaced 120 degrees apart from centre-of-(magnetic)-field to centre-of-field. Therefore, is you increase the 'timing' beyond 60 degrees, you put the timing point on the edge of one field. There's a chance that the rotor won't clear one 'field' before it sees the next one, and it may stall. So, as a rule-of-thumb, any timing setting beyond 60 degrees is not advisable as you cannot know the motor load when it reaches 60 degrees, and so you risk slowing the motor down and generating excess heat.
As to the practicalities, because you cannot know accurately where the sensor sees the rotor, or where 'zero' is, it is highly likely that some motors will run OK with what appears to be 70 degrees total - 60 degrees is only a rule of thumb after all! - but some won't, and may object by ceasing to function and demanding more $$$ from your credit card!
The problem you all have now is that there are no rules to follow when gearing and timing BL motors. Not only is every motor different, motors with the same model number can behave slightly differently when you get to extremes of timing. Anyone asking "what ratio do I put a 13.5 on?" might just as well ask "how long is a piece of string?" - it depends where you cut it!
The ONLY way to get the best from your motor is to experiment with it. Base settings are fine, and can be copied, but you need to start 15% lower on ratio to see how it goes. Only then can you gradually get up to the ratio you were given, and then try different profiles to see of there's any more speed left to get. The thing to remember is this - a DC electric motor 'retards' as the load build up. That means that if you throw too much timing at it too early, it will just get hot and slow down. The more it can rev, the more timing you can throw at it. So, ratio, motor timing, speedo timing and track requirements must all be factored in, and balanced to get the best lap time.
Sorry that you don't have a single answer to work with. There's an old saying - "If you can keep your head while all around are losing theirs, you don't understand the problem!" (With apologies to Rudyard Kipling) Anyone who tells you there is a simple answer doesn't understand the problem!!
My advice is to stick to less than 60 degrees, try any set-up you like but take 15% off the gear ratio to start with, and most of all never let a single race go by where you don't try something different. Write each race settings down, put a lap time next to it, and learn. HTH
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