BRING BACK THE BRUSHES!!!
09-12-2010, 11:12 PM
#31
Just for record, I'm completely in favor of brushless; however I'm against all these new programmable esc's that are spoiling everything good about brushless motors.
Fortunately, Speed Passion "gets it" by selling their Cirtix Stock Club Combo which includes a non-adjustable esc with your choice of a 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, or 10.5 brushless motor, all for only $90
There is no reason for the average club racer to have to spend hundreds of dollars on a brushless motor and esc and then have to deal with all these program parameters. Let the "pro" guys buy that stuff! The majority of us want a simple, and affordable brushless esc/motor combo that is not multi-programmable that puts the "fun" back in racing! That's where the Cirtix Stock Club Combo fills the bill! Kudos to Speed Passion for thinking of the average rc racer!
Having said that, whatever form of electric rc racing you prefer needs to have classes for units like the Cirtix and not allow the "pro" types to infiltrate and ruin it by racing with the super expensive multi-programmable units. Make them run their own class and stay the heck out of stock!! Many of them prey on the average stock racers and enter their classes so that they can get the easy win. You all know what I'm talking about.
Fortunately, Speed Passion "gets it" by selling their Cirtix Stock Club Combo which includes a non-adjustable esc with your choice of a 21.5, 17.5, 13.5, or 10.5 brushless motor, all for only $90
There is no reason for the average club racer to have to spend hundreds of dollars on a brushless motor and esc and then have to deal with all these program parameters. Let the "pro" guys buy that stuff! The majority of us want a simple, and affordable brushless esc/motor combo that is not multi-programmable that puts the "fun" back in racing! That's where the Cirtix Stock Club Combo fills the bill! Kudos to Speed Passion for thinking of the average rc racer!
Having said that, whatever form of electric rc racing you prefer needs to have classes for units like the Cirtix and not allow the "pro" types to infiltrate and ruin it by racing with the super expensive multi-programmable units. Make them run their own class and stay the heck out of stock!! Many of them prey on the average stock racers and enter their classes so that they can get the easy win. You all know what I'm talking about.
I wouldn't tell anyone to run something that is outside their ability to control, and nobody has any business telling anyone else how to spend their money. But...
The guys that are good are going to get around the average guy just fine. I'm not saying that the "one class only' thing should be carried over to local clubs, I would almost insist that it didn't. Local clubs should maintain a novice class for those guys that are just getting used to going in a straight line, but these are not the guys going to big races...
The guys going to big races can drive well enough to allow another car to pass, and I'm going to venture out into left field and say that the guy coming up with all that speed has the ability to pass a slower car.
The differences in speed and/or driving ability are all fixed after 1st round resort, it's that simple. But what if your a fast guy and you break in the first round and thus get resorted to the back of the pack you say?? Well there are a few ways I think that could be fixed. 1) is recognize the format and understand the importance of making it through the first round, don't drive balls out until you are in a heat that allows for it (qualifying strategy), or the more logical option.. 2) resort based on fast lap times, be it fastest 3 laps, 4, 5, something to give a total time to provide an accurate resort but does not count out that guy that broke.
With the race software I'm sure is available now I know that it is more than feasible to do a first round resort based on groupings of fastest laps, and then revert to the 5-6min or whatever time attack qualifying that we are used to.
The guys that are good are going to get around the average guy just fine. I'm not saying that the "one class only' thing should be carried over to local clubs, I would almost insist that it didn't. Local clubs should maintain a novice class for those guys that are just getting used to going in a straight line, but these are not the guys going to big races...
The guys going to big races can drive well enough to allow another car to pass, and I'm going to venture out into left field and say that the guy coming up with all that speed has the ability to pass a slower car.
The differences in speed and/or driving ability are all fixed after 1st round resort, it's that simple. But what if your a fast guy and you break in the first round and thus get resorted to the back of the pack you say?? Well there are a few ways I think that could be fixed. 1) is recognize the format and understand the importance of making it through the first round, don't drive balls out until you are in a heat that allows for it (qualifying strategy), or the more logical option.. 2) resort based on fast lap times, be it fastest 3 laps, 4, 5, something to give a total time to provide an accurate resort but does not count out that guy that broke.
With the race software I'm sure is available now I know that it is more than feasible to do a first round resort based on groupings of fastest laps, and then revert to the 5-6min or whatever time attack qualifying that we are used to.
09-13-2010, 02:43 AM
#32
It might not be everyones line of thinking but I don't look at experienced guys in stock (who some think may be in mod) as sandbagging.
I look at them as a target to beat
(or at least try to, yeah ok the main word here IS try! 
)
As an example, imo it was good to see big names in 17.5 at IIC. If you can't beat them, join them... in the A main!
Saying that though, go back say, 5 or 10 years and I may have thought very differently though.
Why? It's down to perception and mentality. Some may even hate (ok hate is a strong word) the faster guys to start with, but the longer you race the more you respect and learn from the pro's around you, unless you have a grudge against someone for whatever reason - but I guess there is always an exception to the rule if you want to find one!
When you see guys who are in a league of their own and you are not there, you can feel intimidated and your I must win at all costs attitude will do you no good.
You have to race to your own ability not try to keep up with someone elses which may say be 120% of your own ability.
Because when you do, you crash and burn yourself out, mentally and physically.
13.5 IS too fast for me, I am out of my depth when it comes to getting the right ESC settings etc etc but hey, wherever you race there will always be someone faster that you, or right on your tail
I look at them as a target to beat
(or at least try to, yeah ok the main word here IS try! )As an example, imo it was good to see big names in 17.5 at IIC. If you can't beat them, join them... in the A main!
Saying that though, go back say, 5 or 10 years and I may have thought very differently though.
Why? It's down to perception and mentality. Some may even hate (ok hate is a strong word) the faster guys to start with, but the longer you race the more you respect and learn from the pro's around you, unless you have a grudge against someone for whatever reason - but I guess there is always an exception to the rule if you want to find one!
When you see guys who are in a league of their own and you are not there, you can feel intimidated and your I must win at all costs attitude will do you no good.
You have to race to your own ability not try to keep up with someone elses which may say be 120% of your own ability.
Because when you do, you crash and burn yourself out, mentally and physically.
13.5 IS too fast for me, I am out of my depth when it comes to getting the right ESC settings etc etc but hey, wherever you race there will always be someone faster that you, or right on your tail
09-13-2010, 05:28 AM
#33
Even with all the problems we have with brushless, we should never, ever go back to brushed motors.
The speed control people have heard the complaints, and that's why everyone has a "spec" speed control to go along with their programmable SC's.
And for the record, there's no such thing as stock any more.
The speed control people have heard the complaints, and that's why everyone has a "spec" speed control to go along with their programmable SC's.
And for the record, there's no such thing as stock any more.
09-13-2010, 06:32 AM
#34
i hate to say it but i dont think brushless is saving on-road electric TC and seems like it is going backwards . . . add timing on the esc now limited 17.5 etc.
how many people would like to just see stock 27t BRUSHED LOCKED endbell come back along with 19t BRUSHED LOCKED endbell and let mod guys open it up with open brushless and open esc's???
u go to the big race and everyone in the stock and 19t class is on the same motor . . .
i am i not just saying this cause i couldn't part with my fantom lathe . . .
how many people would like to just see stock 27t BRUSHED LOCKED endbell come back along with 19t BRUSHED LOCKED endbell and let mod guys open it up with open brushless and open esc's???
u go to the big race and everyone in the stock and 19t class is on the same motor . . .
i am i not just saying this cause i couldn't part with my fantom lathe . . .
09-13-2010, 07:09 AM
#35
09-13-2010, 07:11 AM
#36
Great answer mike, but the fact if the matter is TC has been on the decline for the last couple years. So much so ROAR is entertaining the idea of not having an electric asphalt nats in 2011. We can't use the economy as an excuse any more. Go to any 1/10 or 1/8 off road event and turnouts are pretty big. Look locally at Vineland labor day weekend. There is a reason they are getting big turnouts and onroad electric TC is not. Just trying to get some thoughts out there on the matter... Cause when I talk to people in the pits I am not the only one thinking it. But might be one of the only ones asking about it in a forum like this...
09-13-2010, 07:11 AM
#37
09-13-2010, 07:15 AM
#38
Nobody wants to go back to maintaining rebuildable brushed motors.
But I think most of us would like to go back to the simplicity of the motor performance.
At least one of the brushless stock classes needs to drop the timing (already happening) and specify a universal FIXED timing on the motors (not happened yet but needs to).
There is a place for timed stock for those of us that like to tweak electronics. Personally I prefer to drive a car.
Brushed still has a place in the sport. Sealed can racing is dirt cheap and a great way of getting people into the hobby. You can buy a complete Tamiya Mini setup for the same kind of money as a big-name timed speedo and motor.
But I think most of us would like to go back to the simplicity of the motor performance.
At least one of the brushless stock classes needs to drop the timing (already happening) and specify a universal FIXED timing on the motors (not happened yet but needs to).
There is a place for timed stock for those of us that like to tweak electronics. Personally I prefer to drive a car.
Brushed still has a place in the sport. Sealed can racing is dirt cheap and a great way of getting people into the hobby. You can buy a complete Tamiya Mini setup for the same kind of money as a big-name timed speedo and motor.
09-13-2010, 07:23 AM
#39
You can run 17.5 - 13.5T on large 8th scale tracks.
The new 208 software for the Tekin is freaking ridiculous.
A stock motor is just a word with these speed controls. A boosted up 13.5T is not really a stock motor.
09-13-2010, 07:28 AM
#40
The use of the VXL Motor no timing, or the castle motors have no timing on them.
let them adjust timing on the ESC but no Turbo or boot or what the heck they keep calling it ?
KO Propo seems to be waiting things out. (Never added Turbo)
Speed Passion seems to make bunch of spec ESCs now.
LRP seems to be cooking something during this time of need also.
There are ESC that seem to go faster faster faster
and there is this small pack that doesnt seem to wanting to add that.
So maybe there is something in the works ?
let them adjust timing on the ESC but no Turbo or boot or what the heck they keep calling it ?
KO Propo seems to be waiting things out. (Never added Turbo)
Speed Passion seems to make bunch of spec ESCs now.
LRP seems to be cooking something during this time of need also.
There are ESC that seem to go faster faster faster
and there is this small pack that doesnt seem to wanting to add that.
So maybe there is something in the works ?
09-13-2010, 07:42 AM
#41
.
Last edited by ~McSmooth~; 10-25-2010 at 04:43 AM.
09-13-2010, 07:43 AM
#42
I ran stock locked motors back in the day. Most of the time they got trashed and tossed. Not going back.
I'm all for 3 classes of Sedan at the local club level:
1) 21.5 locked motor timing and ESC in spec or locked mode for Stock (similar to silver can performance)
2) 17.5 open motor and ESC for Sportsman (Fast, but not too fast)
3) Mod (13.5 and 10.5 indoor are crazy fast anyway)
And don't get rid of WGT, make it a 21.5/2 cell open esc class indoor. The chassis is big enough for the bigger batteries and you will not have to have special gear to run 2 classes (looking from the sedan guys wanting to run a second class, not the 1/12 guys looking the other way).
F1: 21.5 Brushless and locked ESC combo.
I'm all for 3 classes of Sedan at the local club level:
1) 21.5 locked motor timing and ESC in spec or locked mode for Stock (similar to silver can performance)
2) 17.5 open motor and ESC for Sportsman (Fast, but not too fast)
3) Mod (13.5 and 10.5 indoor are crazy fast anyway)
And don't get rid of WGT, make it a 21.5/2 cell open esc class indoor. The chassis is big enough for the bigger batteries and you will not have to have special gear to run 2 classes (looking from the sedan guys wanting to run a second class, not the 1/12 guys looking the other way).
F1: 21.5 Brushless and locked ESC combo.
Last edited by liljohn1064; 09-13-2010 at 08:11 AM.
09-13-2010, 07:47 AM
#43
I think people hate on something that can't get their heads around, if it's too hard they think it's not fair, in the mean time most who have got their heads around the new tech like it just fine, and don't really want to go backwards.
Regardless of what the companies call it, all of it is just dynamic timing, when and where and how to add or remove timing, I'm not sure it's any different to maxing out timing on the motors from not so long ago, or gearing stuff up till the heat makes em smoke.
This push for fixed timing etc won't last, or if it does that will be corrupted by people finding the motor of the month with the most timing build in, or companies will start actually putting intelligent timing into the motors, and then you loose all control again.
Long term I actually see the programmable esc as the great equalizer, let the tech settle in, let them refine the terms and language so it actually makes sense, rather than silly terms like boost and turbo, and more people will get into it.
Regardless of what the companies call it, all of it is just dynamic timing, when and where and how to add or remove timing, I'm not sure it's any different to maxing out timing on the motors from not so long ago, or gearing stuff up till the heat makes em smoke.
This push for fixed timing etc won't last, or if it does that will be corrupted by people finding the motor of the month with the most timing build in, or companies will start actually putting intelligent timing into the motors, and then you loose all control again.
Long term I actually see the programmable esc as the great equalizer, let the tech settle in, let them refine the terms and language so it actually makes sense, rather than silly terms like boost and turbo, and more people will get into it.
09-13-2010, 07:55 AM
#44
Tech Addict
ROAR made some rules about a new class that probihbits turbo/boost and timing.
To verify this the esc had a blinking light.
This was showed on a LRP esc.
dunno why no one mentions it in treads like these.
I must have forgotten something.
To verify this the esc had a blinking light.
This was showed on a LRP esc.
dunno why no one mentions it in treads like these.
I must have forgotten something.
09-13-2010, 08:36 AM
#45
I couldn't give a crap about the 8 people in this country that can handle a mod touring car or 1/12th scale and what they want to race. They don't pay for most of their equipment and/or travel anyway, and we nimrods (who basically fund it) just sit around and let them dictate what gets run.
If the Tekin speedo is really making a 13.5 as fast as an 8.5 then sorry, but that's wrong and organizations like ROAR shouldn't think twice about banning something like that from competition. You weren't allowed to open a stock can and drop in a 10turn in the brushed days even though you could, why now because we are using a power source controlled by software should it be any different?
The problem with ROAR is it looks like it's still run by people that don't even think once
