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Old 01-03-2012, 12:02 PM   #5266
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Originally Posted by SlideMasteR View Post
Also check that there are no binding 'A' arms or camber links as that could create all sorts of handling problems, does it happen in both directions? and only in 'off power' turn in ?
+1 sounds like a binding suspension part.
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Old 01-03-2012, 01:09 PM   #5267
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Not TC6, but... every time I've had issues with tight corner entry spin-out in VTA, the biggest factor has been tires. Make sure they're cleaned, and then sauce them into submission. This is outdoor abrasive asphalt in summer, so not sure how applicable it'll be this time of year.

I've also found success in reducing rear toe-in, and moving weight forward. I'm not sure if reducing rear toe-in helped because it lengthened the rear wheelbase, or because it made less bind (Korey Harbke explained to me that inboard toe-in creates some bind, which can increase corner entry rotation). These successes may have just been compensating for poor tire prep, though. Sometimes the car would just push when the grip came up. :/

Something to keep in mind with VTA, is that the tires are much taller than normal TC tires, so if you run the chassis at 5mm, your outer hinge pins will be higher relative to where they'd be with TC tires, and the resulting angle in the lower A-Arm can take away camber gain. Also, with your outer hinge pins raised, that causes your shocks to become shorter and more angled. Also, I believe the rear tire is a bit taller than the front, and is certainly spaced wider, which messes with your wheel rate and could also mess with your roll center.

If you have some TC tires, I'd suggest putting them on, and applying a good TC baseline setup. Get an idea for how stiff the suspension feels. Look at what kind of angle is in the lower arms and how the camber links relate to that. Look at the shock lengths / angles. Press on the side of the chassis to get a feel for what the camber gain is like. Etc...

Then, put on the VTA tires, and see how much higher the ride height is. Play with all the above stuff. Then drop the ride height back to 5mm, and play with everything some more to see how it all changed.

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Old 01-03-2012, 02:25 PM   #5268
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Default happy new tc6

i run on outdoor asphalt track with poor grip
so i m still oversteer a lot even if radio is a the minimum steer level

i try to lenght the front wheel base my setting are with the lower arm block hole n i use sorex 20R

i use the front diff really tight n spec r gearb box diff with 15 000 silicone on rear
spring are reflex silver front / teal rear
40 OIL both

if someone ca help me to try to get the car more stable when opening the power


thanks guys
good evening
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:32 PM   #5269
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Originally Posted by frenchchris View Post
i run on outdoor asphalt track with poor grip
so i m still oversteer a lot even if radio is a the minimum steer level

i try to lenght the front wheel base my setting are with the lower arm block hole n i use sorex 20R

i use the front diff really tight n spec r gearb box diff with 15 000 silicone on rear
spring are reflex silver front / teal rear
40 OIL both

if someone ca help me to try to get the car more stable when opening the power


thanks guys
good evening
I posted a response over on the RSD thread, before noticing this one!
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Old 01-03-2012, 02:54 PM   #5270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchchris View Post
i run on outdoor asphalt track with poor grip
so i m still oversteer a lot even if radio is a the minimum steer level

i try to lenght the front wheel base my setting are with the lower arm block hole n i use sorex 20R

i use the front diff really tight n spec r gearb box diff with 15 000 silicone on rear
spring are reflex silver front / teal rear
40 OIL both

if someone ca help me to try to get the car more stable when opening the power


thanks guys
good evening
I think 15k oil is too thick. Try 1k in the Spec R diff.
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:14 PM   #5271
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Ok,

I've done my first full day testing with the 6.1.

Broke a couple of bits from really minor grazes (wouldn't even call them a crash)
Firstly, the left hub carrier went, and as described by some others, the look of the plastic where it's broken looks very air rated and brittle as anything... Not ideal, do I've reverted back to the original tc6 ones.

Then again in a similar graze, broke a front driveshaft blade,

And the final break was another driveshaft blade but this time it took the outdrive with it...
Why the need for a plastic cup and a blade is needed is beyond me and oll machine up something more suitable in the next week or so...

Overall the car was quite good, getting down to 0.17 consistancy over a run,
Just a few little niggles and bits I'm not happy with at the moment

Luke
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:19 PM   #5272
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Thanks guys. I will try these things next time at the track. I will report back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorkmissle View Post
Here are some ideas to try in order of importance.

1) Check your tires, make sure you are running what others at your track are. Make sure you clean them and sauce them with appropriate sauce if allowed (paragon or Jack the Gripper for odor free tracks). Make sure they aren't too old, usually after 10 runs or if your belt is showing time to replace them. VTA is slower so you may get more runs.
2) make sure nothing is rubbing when you steer at full lock.
3) Make sure your front slipper spool is tight, you should really not be able to turn one tire while holding the other with your hand.
4) make sure your droop is to kit settings, 7mm front and 6mm back.
5) Turn down your dual rate on your radio and/or move your steering bellcrank ackerman position to C.
6) 2 degree of rear toe-in for carpet usually. Too much rear toe will make you loose out of the corner.
7) 6mm front right height, 5mm rear.
8) add a sway bar to the front or go stiffer on the roll bar if you already have it (silver). Front spring is usually 1 or 2 steps stiffer than back, Blue front/Silver back or silver/Green.

Also make sure your rear diff isn't too tight. Tighten it according to AE's instructions.

For your body, you should have some type of rear wing. I don't know VTA bodies, but put whatever wing you can on the back within your club rules.

If its severe its most likely your tires or having no wing. Something major.

Oil could be lighter in the rear, like 45/35 but you should not be spinning because of it.

Make sure you don't have excessive drag brake or something too.

Good luck.
Awesome, I have a check list now haha. I know it does have some drag brake in it, what would be considered excessive? I am using Paragon on the tires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlideMasteR View Post
Also check that there are no binding 'A' arms or camber links as that could create all sorts of handling problems, does it happen in both directions? and only in 'off power' turn in ?
It seems to happen both directions, but maybe a little worse on left hand turns. Mainly happening off power turn in. One of the local racers looked over it and changed a couple things but it only got barely better. I will check for binding as that could be a problem
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Old 01-03-2012, 05:27 PM   #5273
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If you are using drag brake to just "chill" the car out a bit, 15-25% should be plenty. At VTA speeds you won't need any brakes except for maybe incredibly tight hairpins. Try removing all drag brake. Usually a car will push a bit when steering and braking at the same time, but TOO much forward weight transfer can easily swing the back end around.
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:04 PM   #5274
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Hi all,

Here is a tip for the people who are having issues with the slop in the TC6.1

As you have all found the front and rear hubs have got interchangable inserts for the toe and or castor.

I have found that when buidling the cars do not push the inserts in all the way into the hubs and or castor blocks, leave around 1mm protruding.

Then do a dummy fit into the arms before ca'ing them into place. When you push them into the arms you will set the tollerence required to ensure a snug yet functional fit. I have found that the difference between the ID of the arm and the OD of the hub can be between 0.1 and 0.2 of a mm and this is where the majority of the slop at the top of the hub can be found.

Remember - always make sure that the part don't bind and fall back where they should, flick the hub back and forth if it sticks the just apply a little back and forth pressure to loosen it up.

After you have set the hubs a dab of ca will hold them in place,
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:24 PM   #5275
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Originally Posted by slovanova View Post
Total newb to carpet here. Have been trying the TC6 in VTA and the rear end is super loose on tighter corners. It just wants to do donuts when I let off and turn. I have the kit setup with reflex shock pistons and 40 wt oil in all corners. I cant figure out why it is so loose. Just looking for any pointers or things to try. So far my TC3 is way easier to drive
I would be interested to see if you have sorted this, a lot of people have given a lot for you to look at but given you have said your a noobie that may be too much too take on board.

My first question is where in the corner is it rotating? Turn in, Mid or out? They have all very different charicteristics and remidies also.

First thing to do is make sure the car has kit setup. A fair amount of people who bring me their car have tried so many things the car is a dog. So start from kit and then use this as the base.

The first thing I would suggest is that nothing is binding. take the shocks off and make sure that the arms are free too move.

Then check the shocks, or rebuidl them for good measure. What you are describing is that the rear is lifting and the car is rotaing on the front, so the shocks might be dead and not allowing upward travel.

All of the above is a good maintenence anyway and should be done regularly.

The next thing too look at is the castor. If you are running 4 degrees try 6, this will give a little more understeer into the corner but will prevent the car from rotating at turn in. Remember the weight is going to the front of the car and the rear of the car want to go to the outside so turns more and is lighter.

The TC6 as high roll centres, this means that the weight on the rear of the car is higher than the front when under brakes, the premotes more turn, which can be good dependant on the grip at the front, if the grip is high then the front will have more bite, ie more turning power, this is when a higher rear roll centre can be bad. Sometime you can tell if this is happening when the rear wheel starts to lift. If this happens and you have foam tyres you will traction roll, if you have rubber tyres you will slide. This is because the foam will grip and the rubber will overload the outside wheel.

So, that explaned, the next thing to try is lowering the rear roll centre. This can easily be done by dropping the rear king pin from bulkhead mount location B to location A. Keep the same arm mounts, droop settings etc. You will have to screw the droop screw back up though. I would also buy a pack of turnbucle eyelets and replace the shocks standard eyelets with them, this allows better droop adjustment.

SO a long story short, to me you sound like you are rotating on the front that means you have too much turn, so try the 6 degree fron blocks and drop your rear roll centre from B to A on the rear kingpin.

MAybe I should have just said that? but I guess now you know why you should do it!
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:35 PM   #5276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchchris View Post
i run on outdoor asphalt track with poor grip
so i m still oversteer a lot even if radio is a the minimum steer level

i try to lenght the front wheel base my setting are with the lower arm block hole n i use sorex 20R

i use the front diff really tight n spec r gearb box diff with 15 000 silicone on rear
spring are reflex silver front / teal rear
40 OIL both

if someone ca help me to try to get the car more stable when opening the power


thanks guys
good evening
Chris,

Please read my last post this is also applicable to you. Like Rick has suggested though 15k oil in the rear is way too thick. I would also put the spool back in and see how that goes.

So,
Change the rear oil to 1000cst.
Put the front spool back in.

If in these don't work try my suggestion in the post above.

What motor are you running by the way?
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:04 AM   #5277
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Originally Posted by Paul.Spencer View Post
Chris,

Please read my last post this is also applicable to you. Like Rick has suggested though 15k oil in the rear is way too thick. I would also put the spool back in and see how that goes.

So,
Change the rear oil to 1000cst.
Put the front spool back in.

If in these don't work try my suggestion in the post above.

What motor are you running by the way?
I m running a xerun 4.5 turn with a ZTW 120A esc with 60 C batteries
timing level two and punch low
i run a 24 pinion and 87 spur in 48 dp
the track turn is 19 seconds for the fatest guys
i reach the 22 seconds regulary but still loosing too much time as our track got an hairpin in wich i m quite stop when need to accelerate

one question can the roll center be different in front n rear arms ?
without any bad effects ?

latest point we are outdoor in winter so the tires are hard to get warm
ground temp is around 6 celsuis so really not help me to find grip

if you are curious try to watch my youtube chanel there are some videos of our track
my channel is chistdirocco

have a nice day n many thanks for your help
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:22 AM   #5278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchchris View Post
I m running a xerun 4.5 turn with a ZTW 120A esc with 60 C batteries
timing level two and punch low
i run a 24 pinion and 87 spur in 48 dp
the track turn is 19 seconds for the fatest guys
i reach the 22 seconds regulary but still loosing too much time as our track got an hairpin in wich i m quite stop when need to accelerate

one question can the roll center be different in front n rear arms ?
without any bad effects ?

latest point we are outdoor in winter so the tires are hard to get warm
ground temp is around 6 celsuis so really not help me to find grip

if you are curious try to watch my youtube chanel there are some videos of our track
my channel is chistdirocco

have a nice day n many thanks for your help
I usually will have the rear arm blocks 1 setting higher than the front (1B rear, 0B front for example)..... if your car makes adequate traction and handles how you like, there's no reason they NEED to be the same.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:29 AM   #5279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchchris View Post
I m running a xerun 4.5 turn with a ZTW 120A esc with 60 C batteries
timing level two and punch low
i run a 24 pinion and 87 spur in 48 dp
the track turn is 19 seconds for the fatest guys
i reach the 22 seconds regulary but still loosing too much time as our track got an hairpin in wich i m quite stop when need to accelerate

one question can the roll center be different in front n rear arms ?
without any bad effects ?

latest point we are outdoor in winter so the tires are hard to get warm
ground temp is around 6 celsuis so really not help me to find grip

if you are curious try to watch my youtube chanel there are some videos of our track
my channel is chistdirocco

have a nice day n many thanks for your help
Chris,
Watched your vids from the 22nd of November.
A few things.
I would raise your ride height as I can hear it chattering over the bumps coming into some of the turns, even over that wind lol. I would also look at having more droop say about 2mm to 2.5mm over ride height. (Set your ride height to 6mm, then screw the droop screws out/in so when you lift the rear of the car by the shock towers you reach a ride height of 8-8.5 mm, just beofre the tyres come off the ground)
Your brakes seem to be too strong also and are locking up as your brake, this is where the car gets a bit of its over steer. I would also gear up, on the back straight it sounds like it is revving out pretty hard which means you have low gearing in it. Low gearing will also promote more wheel spin from out of the corners as it generates more torque. Maybe also adjust that throttle finger also

For 6 degree temps, I would be using a very low range temp tyre like a sorex 24. I would suggest tyre warmers too and bring them up to heat at around 60 deg for 10 mins.

Adjusting the fron to rear roll centres will not do any harm at all. Essentially a car has four basic roll centres. One at the front, one at the rear one horizonatally (front to back) and one vertically (up and down, though thsi is not really a rollc entre it own right but the effective sum of all of the roll centres acting on each other, dynamics, not static.). In terms of roll the best way to think about it is "every action has an equal an opposite reaction" Ie if i place more load on the left then there is less load on the right (play with your car and push down on the top left of the shock tower), well in terms if things are equally balanced, ie symetyrical.
So when i suggest lowering the rear roll centre you are basicall angling the chassis downward towards the rear of the car. This reduses the weight transfer from the rear of the car to the front of the car across the vertical roll centre, also known as "jacking" (commonly a karting term) ie the end of the car lifts up.
This is where dynamic forces come into play, so imagine if you are braking the rear of the car jacks due to a too high roll centre and then you turn. The lightest end will want to rotate around the front directional axis and the rear will lose the grip.
Now with the front roll centre essentially it is the same as the rear, however it is generally the main pivot point for a vehicle. Basically the front roll centre can have the largest effect on the amount for front grip A high roll centre is best for high grip tracks due to the redued amount of cambergain and effective larger load that a high roll centre promotes, the car feels stiffer. Where the lower roll centre promotes a larger amount of camber gain that gives a softer feel and allows more grip on low traction surfaces. As a rule of thumb for me, if it understeers too much go lower, if it turns to sharply or traction rolls on the front go higher. This can also have a lot to do with springs in the front also.
So the best setup is the right spring rate with the right dampening oil, coupled with the right roll centres front/rear and front to rear for the amount of grip that the track and tyres can give.

Its a cool little track that you have there and intersting tunnel, I bet that can cause some carnage.

A bit of a lecture I know, but I Hope I have passed on my knowledge to some people and it helps you in some way.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:18 AM   #5280
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Default Breaking CVA Blades TC6.1

Just finished putting together my new TC6.1.

Took the car out for a practice night and I broke 4 CVA blades in the front of the car. Both sides were breaking. I own a TC5 and have never bust one of these.

The car is setup to the book setup, but there must be something wrong with the setup. Is it possible that the solid front spool is the cause rather than having a slipper spool.

Also is Associated fixing the weak C-Hub issue.
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