USGT
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#4576
Tech Champion
iTrader: (34)
I agree 100%. When I look at the field of cars in the 1:1 scale Weathertech/IMSA GTLM class I see an interesting mixed bag of styles ranging from BMW M6's to the more radical Ford GT's and Ferrari 488's.
http://www.imsa.com/imsa101/car-classes
In the Pirelli World Challenge series, in the GT class you'll see Cadillac ATS's racing McLaren 675's and other exotics. A real mixed bag. The rules are pretty complex to keep performance levels as equal as possible between such radically different cars.
http://www.world-challenge.com/image.../2015-SEMA.pdf
In my opinion there is absolutely no place for Daytona Prototype (or any other LeMans type prototype) bodies in the USGT or GT10 class. It's just not right and it makes no sense - even if there's been no perceived advantage to using them.
By the time the shape of the DP's are fudged to fit the front shock towers under them and put molded-in rear wing struts on them they just look flat-out goofy. Flame me for having a strong opinion if you want - I don't really care.
Dale Epp - Protoform
http://www.imsa.com/imsa101/car-classes
In the Pirelli World Challenge series, in the GT class you'll see Cadillac ATS's racing McLaren 675's and other exotics. A real mixed bag. The rules are pretty complex to keep performance levels as equal as possible between such radically different cars.
http://www.world-challenge.com/image.../2015-SEMA.pdf
In my opinion there is absolutely no place for Daytona Prototype (or any other LeMans type prototype) bodies in the USGT or GT10 class. It's just not right and it makes no sense - even if there's been no perceived advantage to using them.
By the time the shape of the DP's are fudged to fit the front shock towers under them and put molded-in rear wing struts on them they just look flat-out goofy. Flame me for having a strong opinion if you want - I don't really care.
Dale Epp - Protoform
Last edited by Matt Trimmings; 05-19-2016 at 09:29 PM.
#4578
Tech Addict
Dale I'm sure we can all understand the dilemma you as a manufacturer face. However you seem to have solved this issue with your PF LTCR, LCTR 2.0 bodies, the F1 bodies you've recently designed and the cool PFM-10. I can only speak for myself but I don't really care if you design a body around a popular real car that forces you to pay a royalty (and more $ for me to buy) or one that is functional and well just really cool looking. Let's face it, with the limitations you have due to the basic design of the typical RC chassis you can only come up with a concept that "resembles" the real thing. I think you think we are all caught up in having to have the real thing. If it meant you coming up with more design choices (and maybe more weight choices of those designs) and something that was based off of a popular real car that the majority of us could get the "gist" of I think you'd be surprised. A couple more bucks in your pocket and a couple less out of mine is just fine with me.
Most of us RC racers live in fantasy world that allows us to live those fantasies out driving toy cars. It requires an "imagination" for us to think we're a Vettle, Hamilton or a Gordon and the cars they drive. Let the static model guys build their shelf queen scale models with all the realism that can be designed into their product without the limits you face. I'm just fine with a PFerarri, PFstang GT, or a PFadillac PTS. I just want a body that hooks up well and someone asks "who makes that body, it's really cool and where can I buy one"?
Most of us RC racers live in fantasy world that allows us to live those fantasies out driving toy cars. It requires an "imagination" for us to think we're a Vettle, Hamilton or a Gordon and the cars they drive. Let the static model guys build their shelf queen scale models with all the realism that can be designed into their product without the limits you face. I'm just fine with a PFerarri, PFstang GT, or a PFadillac PTS. I just want a body that hooks up well and someone asks "who makes that body, it's really cool and where can I buy one"?
I agree with everything you stated - except for the one line that I underlined.
After 24 years of doing this and finding myself in some very difficult and costly situations I've concluded that "I have to pick my battles". Another way to paint a word picture is simply: "Don't poke the bear". There are many automakers that have spent decades creating unique styling cues that bear the "signature look" of the company. BMW has it's twin kidney bean shaped grills, Aston Martin has it's unique grill shape and Mercedes has it's vector logo. They all have these things registered so no one dares mess this these - even the ones that design real 1:1 cars. It's not just the Ferrari Prancing Horse or the Chevy Bowtie symbols that are protected, it's the signature look of the car as well.
Having said that, there are other reason's that we tread lightly when chooseing a new rc body style. There are some auto makers that ask outragious sums of money (McLaren) and some that are reasonable in the money dept. Others will and drag out the licensing process to the point of utter frustration and some that just flat out ignore all your letters and e-mail requests. The odd time there's a company that is easy to deal with and doesn't try to take all your profit and your pocket change - like Mazda!!! They're the best The next time you need a real car - buy a Mazda! There..... I said it.
The worst are the ones that ignore you and then out of the blue they sue you when they see you've done something similar to what they sell. Some companies have internal legal departments that they rely on for basic company $$ income because these same companies will sometimes operate for years in the red. They have loser lawyers that read Car Action magazine and look at Tower catalogues. They attend trade shows where they take pictures and notes. We were once threatened by a company called Visteon. (it was the former electronics division of Ford - like what AC Delco is to Chevy) WHY? Because we had a Visteon decal on a Ford Mondeo sedan on our web site. They were dead serious too - even when we explained why it was there etc. Honestly....they wanted to take us down - over that.
Some rc body companies get away with things because they don't advertise and don't have trade show booths. Eventually.........
You've probably concluded that it's a sensitive topic with me and you're right - because of what's gone on for the last 24 years. Maybe now you have a bit of a snapshot as to why. We now tend to err on the side of caution. I like my occupation, a lot, and those employees that work in the PF division at PL appreciate their jobs as well. We all simply want to continue doing it.
IMO there's some good stuff coming from PF in 2016 - for the USGT class.
Dale - Protoform
#4581
Tech Master
iTrader: (23)
Hi Leester;
I agree with everything you stated - except for the one line that I underlined.
After 24 years of doing this and finding myself in some very difficult and costly situations I've concluded that "I have to pick my battles". Another way to paint a word picture is simply: "Don't poke the bear". There are many automakers that have spent decades creating unique styling cues that bear the "signature look" of the company. BMW has it's twin kidney bean shaped grills, Aston Martin has it's unique grill shape and Mercedes has it's vector logo. They all have these things registered so no one dares mess this these - even the ones that design real 1:1 cars. It's not just the Ferrari Prancing Horse or the Chevy Bowtie symbols that are protected, it's the signature look of the car as well.
Having said that, there are other reason's that we tread lightly when chooseing a new rc body style. There are some auto makers that ask outragious sums of money (McLaren) and some that are reasonable in the money dept. Others will and drag out the licensing process to the point of utter frustration and some that just flat out ignore all your letters and e-mail requests. The odd time there's a company that is easy to deal with and doesn't try to take all your profit and your pocket change - like Mazda!!! They're the best The next time you need a real car - buy a Mazda! There..... I said it.
The worst are the ones that ignore you and then out of the blue they sue you when they see you've done something similar to what they sell. Some companies have internal legal departments that they rely on for basic company $$ income because these same companies will sometimes operate for years in the red. They have loser lawyers that read Car Action magazine and look at Tower catalogues. They attend trade shows where they take pictures and notes. We were once threatened by a company called Visteon. (it was the former electronics division of Ford - like what AC Delco is to Chevy) WHY? Because we had a Visteon decal on a Ford Mondeo sedan on our web site. They were dead serious too - even when we explained why it was there etc. Honestly....they wanted to take us down - over that.
Some rc body companies get away with things because they don't advertise and don't have trade show booths. Eventually.........
You've probably concluded that it's a sensitive topic with me and you're right - because of what's gone on for the last 24 years. Maybe now you have a bit of a snapshot as to why. We now tend to err on the side of caution. I like my occupation, a lot, and those employees that work in the PF division at PL appreciate their jobs as well. We all simply want to continue doing it.
IMO there's some good stuff coming from PF in 2016 - for the USGT class.
Dale - Protoform
I agree with everything you stated - except for the one line that I underlined.
After 24 years of doing this and finding myself in some very difficult and costly situations I've concluded that "I have to pick my battles". Another way to paint a word picture is simply: "Don't poke the bear". There are many automakers that have spent decades creating unique styling cues that bear the "signature look" of the company. BMW has it's twin kidney bean shaped grills, Aston Martin has it's unique grill shape and Mercedes has it's vector logo. They all have these things registered so no one dares mess this these - even the ones that design real 1:1 cars. It's not just the Ferrari Prancing Horse or the Chevy Bowtie symbols that are protected, it's the signature look of the car as well.
Having said that, there are other reason's that we tread lightly when chooseing a new rc body style. There are some auto makers that ask outragious sums of money (McLaren) and some that are reasonable in the money dept. Others will and drag out the licensing process to the point of utter frustration and some that just flat out ignore all your letters and e-mail requests. The odd time there's a company that is easy to deal with and doesn't try to take all your profit and your pocket change - like Mazda!!! They're the best The next time you need a real car - buy a Mazda! There..... I said it.
The worst are the ones that ignore you and then out of the blue they sue you when they see you've done something similar to what they sell. Some companies have internal legal departments that they rely on for basic company $$ income because these same companies will sometimes operate for years in the red. They have loser lawyers that read Car Action magazine and look at Tower catalogues. They attend trade shows where they take pictures and notes. We were once threatened by a company called Visteon. (it was the former electronics division of Ford - like what AC Delco is to Chevy) WHY? Because we had a Visteon decal on a Ford Mondeo sedan on our web site. They were dead serious too - even when we explained why it was there etc. Honestly....they wanted to take us down - over that.
Some rc body companies get away with things because they don't advertise and don't have trade show booths. Eventually.........
You've probably concluded that it's a sensitive topic with me and you're right - because of what's gone on for the last 24 years. Maybe now you have a bit of a snapshot as to why. We now tend to err on the side of caution. I like my occupation, a lot, and those employees that work in the PF division at PL appreciate their jobs as well. We all simply want to continue doing it.
IMO there's some good stuff coming from PF in 2016 - for the USGT class.
Dale - Protoform
Thanks for giving me (all of us) a detailed reply as to the "why's and wherefore's" you/PF/PL deal with on a regular basis. It's this type of insight that makes things much easier for me to understand the decisions you have to make when bringing a product to market. It also makes it much easier to understand why costs are what they are on your side of the business. In the RC world your company has to deal with issues that are unique to the products you provide. Can't think of too many other parts of the industry that have the added burden of adding licensing agreement costs to the price of their product! Should make your reply a "sticky" so you don't have to repeat the explanation a month from now!
#4583
Tech Elite
iTrader: (66)
A Speed 3 body would look pretty sweet in USGT as well. Or a PF Version of the Furia or RX7 mmmmmm mmm. Sotry to beg on what I am sure is already a full line up one the way. (Let's face it, the RX8 did not meet expectations).
But on that note of a full docket, are there any new VTA bodies in the line-up. It's been a hot minute since the PF Trans Am was released.
But on that note of a full docket, are there any new VTA bodies in the line-up. It's been a hot minute since the PF Trans Am was released.
#4584
But what to do about the convertible top? I guess no choice but to go with the hard top.
Last edited by Matt Trimmings; 05-19-2016 at 09:29 PM.
#4585
I think it is worth mentioning that the people responsible for making the USGT rules are aware of the issues surrounding "Daytona" Prototype bodies (based on posts that have been made in this thread by those individuals). If and/or when the rules are changed pertaining to these bodies, they are currently legal.
Whether the prototype bodies are an advantage or not is certainly worth debating, but it shouldn't affect anyone's enjoyment of this class. I've seen so many different bodies performing well in this class over the years that I'm convinced that it is setup and driving that really makes the difference. Do different bodies perform differently? Of course they do. Do most bodies perform so differently that you can't set them up do be competitive? Not that I've seen. The diversity of the bodies and their connection to real world versions is part of what makes this class great for racers AND spectators alike.
There are very few classes that offer such a wide selection of bodies and chassis that can be competitive. If someone doesn't like prototypes, run a body that is as different from a prototype as possible. Set up your chassis well, drive a good race, and beat all those "ugly" cars. After the race engage in some friendly trash talk with the prototype guys, laugh together, and HAVE SOME FUN.
Whether the prototype bodies are an advantage or not is certainly worth debating, but it shouldn't affect anyone's enjoyment of this class. I've seen so many different bodies performing well in this class over the years that I'm convinced that it is setup and driving that really makes the difference. Do different bodies perform differently? Of course they do. Do most bodies perform so differently that you can't set them up do be competitive? Not that I've seen. The diversity of the bodies and their connection to real world versions is part of what makes this class great for racers AND spectators alike.
There are very few classes that offer such a wide selection of bodies and chassis that can be competitive. If someone doesn't like prototypes, run a body that is as different from a prototype as possible. Set up your chassis well, drive a good race, and beat all those "ugly" cars. After the race engage in some friendly trash talk with the prototype guys, laugh together, and HAVE SOME FUN.
If a racer wants to run a car body that turns them on and makes them want to come to the track and plop down their hard earned money to race, I think that's a great thing. Sure, you don't want to provide a competitive advantage, but keep them realistic I think you are good to go.
As far as licensing, lawyers eat their young. Years ago, manufacturers were complimented to have companies what to reproduce their vehicles. It was free marketing to the max! Hot Wheels would have never made it in today's world. The model train guys are dealing with it as are the plastic model people. So sad.
#4586
Tech Champion
iTrader: (32)
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: In a land of mini-mighty mental giants
Posts: 8,854
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Thanks for all the work over the years Dale cant wait to see what you have out for us next!
#4587
Tech Elite
iTrader: (30)
Sticker issue aside is there any chance to get the Mondeo back onto the market? I would love to do up some old school Aussie V8 paint jobs on one. This was one of my all time favorite PF bodies. Maybe an "Old School" or re-release of the older bodies from the BTCC inspired days....Vaxhual, BMW etc etc???
Thanks for all the work over the years Dale cant wait to see what you have out for us next!
Thanks for all the work over the years Dale cant wait to see what you have out for us next!
Last edited by Matt Trimmings; 05-19-2016 at 09:29 PM.
#4588
Tech Lord
iTrader: (86)
You knew I'd agree with this IndyRCRacer! My opinion: Its hard enough to get people INTO this hobby. If you demand that the "acceptable list" of USGT car bodies is narrowed even further to match your own personal view of the world, then you are pushing potential USGT racers away.
If a racer wants to run a car body that turns them on and makes them want to come to the track and plop down their hard earned money to race, I think that's a great thing. Sure, you don't want to provide a competitive advantage, but keep them realistic I think you are good to go.
As far as licensing, lawyers eat their young. Years ago, manufacturers were complimented to have companies what to reproduce their vehicles. It was free marketing to the max! Hot Wheels would have never made it in today's world. The model train guys are dealing with it as are the plastic model people. So sad.
If a racer wants to run a car body that turns them on and makes them want to come to the track and plop down their hard earned money to race, I think that's a great thing. Sure, you don't want to provide a competitive advantage, but keep them realistic I think you are good to go.
As far as licensing, lawyers eat their young. Years ago, manufacturers were complimented to have companies what to reproduce their vehicles. It was free marketing to the max! Hot Wheels would have never made it in today's world. The model train guys are dealing with it as are the plastic model people. So sad.
#4590
Tech Elite
iTrader: (30)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HPI-7481-Vau...gAAOSwAKxWVT49
Factory painted HPI Vauxhall 190mm body
NOT my body, not my ad. Please don't ask me.
Factory painted HPI Vauxhall 190mm body
NOT my body, not my ad. Please don't ask me.