rough512

iTrader: (12)

Crimson Eagle:

Is it normal for the calibration settings to be altered when the charger is calibrated? (static and charging voltages). Also, when try to discharge, the charger keeps aborting, it displays "pls check 12v fuse" or something like that. Fuse is okay...

My charger is version 10.12 . Will it take major modifications to upgrade it to current specs?

CamR

Hi,

As a Pro-Trak newbie, courtesy of Santa Claus, I have read all 15 pages of this thread before asking this question.

Can anyone advise a good starting set up for charging 3300 & 3700 6 packs for 5 minute 19turn races.

I am a relative novice when it comes to battery care but having checked a few of my packs on the Pro-Trak I want to do something that both maintains battery conditions and optimises performance.

I am currently charging using the stock settings, i.e., pressing charge and letting the charger do it's stuff.

All help gratefully received

TVM

Cam

crimson eagle

Hi Cam,

The following text is directly from my website. I'll add a couple of notes afterwards too.



"General charging technique

I have been asked a few times recently about my regimen for using my cells. I do believe you need to have a method which you stick to as it seems that these cells do like to be treated the same way every time. If you have read most of this web site and the Pro Trak website you will see that fully equalizing your packs is essential for getting the most run time out of your cells. Even if you do not use all of that run time it is useful to have as it gets you further back on the discharge curve (higher voltage) at the end of the run. So saying, the following method is what I do with my cells.


After racing I will discharge to 1v/cell to find out what run time I have left, then put my cells away (no equalizing here).

The night before my next race I will pre-equalize my cells for around four hour and maybe leave the last cells on the tray overnight.

On the day of the race I will put my cells on the discharge tray and leave them there until I need to take them off to charge.

I charge my cells as normal (for me this means temperature charging in the winter to 115F and peak charging in the summer with a cutoff of .03v)

Repeat.

I don’t like the idea of leaving my cells on the discharge trays for too long as I think sometimes strange things can happen, particularly with older cells. A lot of people have had some good results with dead shorting but I have heard of some problems. If for example problems will only happen to 5% of cells packs that still means you may lose 1 pack in 20, for me it is not worth the risk. Also the much touted improvement in cell voltage is easily explained by the reduced run time, I would be much more interested in the voltage at 5 minutes as a more accurate comparison.

Generally I can get over 4200Mah into my 3300’s when I use this method and from the tests we have done the more you put in, the more you will get out."


This has been on website for quite some time and these days I have 3 equalisers so I do not pre equalise anymore, I just put them on the trays as soon as I get to the track, I usually get 3 hours minimum into my cells before they are charged this seems to be enough.

Also from my website you will see the best results from discharge data i have is for mutli phasic charging and for hard pulse charging so I combine both methods. I use Multi Phasic set to 5A / 7A / 5A with the 2nd stage 7A charge using hard pulse set to 30%. With my 3700's can generally put 4400Mah into my cells very consistantly. I also use a 115F temperature cutoff when the ambient temp is below 85F. Do not use multi phasic or hard pulse with IB cells, they do not like it. I have not tested IP cells yet.

I'm always interested to hear what people are getting in thier cells. I know some Pro Trak guys at my club who can get 4800 Mah in quite regularly. I don't know many people who can do more than 4400 with GP's. My first batch of GP's I could get 4700 in easily, this batchis not taking as much.

Anything else, please ask.

CamR

Crimson,

Thanks for the reply I have one or two questions for you which I will PM

Cam

rinkrat99

Hi Chris,

I have been reading through your website and see most charge info based on GP3700 cells. What are your thoughts on care and charge for the IB cells?

Thanks

crimson eagle

Rink,

I have done a lot of testing with IB cells and before I go any further I can tell you that most if not all will disagree with me on how to care for them. As always, this is just my thoughts on how to look after these things. I will paste some of the test details in a subsequent post. You may want to read that one first.

I don't think the IB's are as robust as the GP's, however they do have quite a bit more run time. Thge voltage slope over time is steeper with IB's. They have more voltage up front and less at the back of the run. At the very end of the run they take a long time to run out.

The one thing which I found that was most important - DO NOT EQUALISE THESE CELLS ! ! ! ! I mean not at all. I did that and the cells lost 70 seconds of run time at 30A. This is what most of the people will disagree with me about. They will say that for stock you need run time and losing 70 seconds is no big deal if you get better voltage. My reply is not to get blinkered about average voltage. When you equalise you lose all the data from the end of discharge which skews the average data upwards. When i post the IB data you will see what I mean.

Don't charge these things too aggressively, I tried a lot of methods and they seem to like a standard linear charge at 5A the best, they get very inconsistant when you do weird stuff to them.

If you can temp charge do it, charge to about 115F this is the same for GP. you can't do that set a pretty sensitive delta of about 0.02V for the pack.

So all this makes life easy.

1. Charge at 5A linear to 115F or .02v delta.
2. Race
3. Discharge to 1v per cell @ 30A (or 20A)
4. Store untill next race.

You may want to leave some charge in the cells if you are not going to race for more than a couple of weeks.

I'm not convinced about the longevity of these cells, i'd like to see data after 3 months of normal use before I decide about that.

I know I'm going to get disagreed with a lot but that's fine.

Chris

NismoSkyline17

Hi Crimson,

What's the current price on the newest Protrak 30amp and the serial cable, temperature tray, and ICS shipped in the US? Also do you have these in stock?

crimson eagle

Hi All,

Around September last year I completed tests on IB cells, I compared the data with GP cells I already have. Below is the report I wrote about the tests and there is some graphs attached at the bottom. I think it was Mr Blonde who talked about the voltage curve differences had it exactly right. This was in the 3700 / 3800 thread

Chris.




IB / GP Cell comparison



Testing was conducted on my Pro Trak which was calibrated specifically for these cells to achieve the highest accuracy possible. I used various charge methods, discharge is fixed at 30A. The data was transferred from my Pro Trak to my old laptop as it was collected (or “Live”), then after the four cycle test run was complete I’d take that info and start another test run. I already had data collected from previous cycles of GP cells so I concentrated on obtaining info from the IB cells. If you will look at the pic (graph 1), this is a screenshot of the monitor program you will see the data from the first four cycle run and the second to fifth cycle on those cells. As you can see in Graph 1 the data looks pretty good, run time 471, Ave voltage 1.17/1.18, etc, all good data for a set of cells.

If you look Graph 1 you will notice that in the beginning of discharge the voltage is very high and slopes down gradually to the end of the discharge.

I ran off a few cycles using various charging methods but these cells seem to like a regular linear charge method best. All of the exotic charging techniques I tried did not improve any of the discharge data and in some cases the data was very slightly worse.

Voltage Comparison

The interesting information started to emerge when I compared the data between the two types of cells. Graph 2 shows a direct graphical comparison of pack voltage between the two sets of cells. As you can see the GP cells fall off faster at the beginning of discharge but as the cells get to the plateau the GP’s hold their voltage better than the IB’s.

Voltage Difference

After seeing graph 2 I wanted to know what the actual difference in voltage was at any given point in the discharge curve, Graph 3 emphasizes the difference between the two types of cells much more dramatically than a straight comparison of voltages. This graph looks a bit strange at first but if you look at the lines above the 0.0 point the red line is where the IB’s have more voltage than the GP’s and the blue line above the 0.0 point is where the GP’s have more voltage than the IB’s. The IB’s start off the run with more voltage than the GP’s but at the end of the run the GP’s have better voltage. Voltage translates directly into speed as the number of volts available to the motor determines what the max RPM of the motor is going to be. It will also have an effect on punch because when you start with lower volts, the voltage will depress more under heavy load.

The question to ask here is exactly how much run time you have left at the end of your race as looking at the graph will lead you to believe that if you have 130 seconds left when you finish the race then at no point will GPs’ have more voltage during the competitive race. However, if you go deep into discharge at the end of the run the GP cells appear to have better voltage.


IB Equalizing

Graph 4 speaks for itself.

You lose a lot of everything after equalizing these cells, run time (70 seconds), voltage (almost 0.2 at any given snapshot in time). I don’t think I need to add anything here. I have not collected any data on dead shorting at this time. You will notice that the voltage drops more abruptly at the end of discharge. This will give a false impression of higher average voltage. The calculated average for these cells was 1.18v but as you can see in reality these cells were not even close to either the GP’s or the unequalised IB’s (the same set of cells).


End Comments

What is clear is that both types of cells are very good, I know GP3700’s much better as I have been using them for 12 months or so and I’m very happy with them. I’m certain you will hear similar things about the IB cells particularly from sponsored drivers and matchers who use them. I like being able to equalize the GP cells as unequalized cells can get out of balance which may cause overcharging in certain cells within the pack. The advantage of IB cells is the run time which can be huge. I'll probably get IB's next time to give them a try but I think the durability of GP's will take me back to them next time. We shall see though.

radio_car_racer

iTrader: (1)

what voltage did you equalise the IB's to?

and are the results from GP3700 v IB 3600 or IB 3800's ?

XMSRacing

iTrader: (11)

When your EQing the IB's where you going to 0 with the ICS or using a third party EQ at a specified voltage?

Seeing all data you can get from the Pro Trak, I can't wait to get mine in the mail today or tomorrow!!!

Merciless

Hi all can someone please help me with getting the monitor program i just don't seem to be able to manage it.

The links from the Pro-Trak site seem to be down and i just can't read the japanese site

Thanks

Rod

XMSRacing

iTrader: (11)

What's it doing/not doing?

Merciless

All sorted now cheers

crimson eagle

I didn't equalise at all for the first, 18 or so cycles and the run time only reduced by a couple of seconds. I did equalise to 0v when I tried it and instantly lost 70 seconds run time. I didn't have any more cells to try part equalising with. At the time they were the latest version IB3800's which was the version before the one out right now. They were compared against gp 3700's which are now about 14 months old and I'm still using them and getting 4300Mah into on charge. My newer 3700's I'm getting 4500Mah into.

Merciless

Guys just recieved my new V.10.83 Pro-Trak

One quiery though, When using Version 10.70 software on the pc and doing a discharge only when the Pro-Trak cuts off at the end and i presume sends the final data to the pc i get a "runtime error 711" ??

I have to click OK to clear this and that shuts the monitor program down and i lose all the data

Anyone got any ideas on the problem ??

I have even tried re-installing my WinXP operating system incase there was a problem there.

Oh i was not getting this with my OLD 10.5* version Pro-Trak i swapped in, if that helps at all ........

Cheers

Rod