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This is a place to share knowledge related to 1/12th scale racing. It is not to be used for conversations.

KITS:
Click links to go to manufacturer product page. If any are missing please add them!

TIRES:
Pre-mounted tires readily available in the US:
Pre-mounted tires readily available in the Europe:
  • Hot Race ??

Gluing your own donuts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7z1rz-74s - Special thanks to Edward Pickering!
Truing tires:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wqHOLWq6Uc - Special thanks to Edward Pickering!

The following information came from HERE, with some editing and information added. Thanks Christian!

THIS MAY NEED UPDATING FOR THE NEW BLACK CRC CARPET

Brands:
BSR, CRC, Jaco:
Pro One is no longer selling to the public, but it and the brands above are all mounted by BSR and use the same foam. The nomenclature of the BSR vs Jaco/CRC is a little different in a few instances but is otherwise the same. The BSR foam consists of three families, and can be identifed as synthetics, naturals, and blends.

Synthetics - The old school, light weight, easy to true "dry feeling" tires. These include tires like CRC/Jaco Yellow (BSR White), Black, Gray, etc. These tires offer the highest wear rate and lowest grip. Many racers continue to use these nder high bite conditions.

Naturals - These tires are usually the best alternative for low bite and asphalt. They include Pink, Magenta, Double Pink, Lilac (BSR Team Purple), Purple, and other tires. These tires provide a ton of grip, but tend to get sticky in high bite conditions. This rubber does not wear as easily, and the cars will pick up gunk and fibers from the carpet under most high bite conditions. This is especially bad if the humidity is high.

Blends - These are the tires most people run today. They were initially called "JFT foam" by some, as it was believed that the tires were the same as the JFT tires. We can divide the blends further into two groups: high rubber and low rubber content. The high rubber would be the new rear Orange and Red from the BSR family, and the low rubber would be the Green and Blue varieties. When, asked about the difference, John Foister from BSR Tires said they came from the same "family" of foam, but they offered different grip. According to John, the Green/Blue has more bite than Orange/Red, but from track testing Oranges offer more bite than Green (being equivalent to in hardness) when the grip is high and absolutely no grip when it is lower. The Orange foam has a denser pore structure and the tire is not as prone to chunking. It is also important to note is that BSR Blue rears are not the same as the BSR Blue fronts!

JFT:
JFT stands for Japan Foam Tire. They started the new wave of foam tires we are all using now (Blue/Blu, Green/Greene, Dbl Blue, etc). These tires are a little different than the BSR tire family, but work in very similar conditions. They offers four varieties A (asphalt), C (carpet), S (???), and R (???). This does not mean that those types only work on that surface, but this is what they recommend.

JFT uses the same foam for fronts and rears if the color is the same.

A: Used on asphalt, considered close to the natural rubber variety and are named consistently with other natural tires.
C: Used on carpet, considered a blend.
S: Used on carpet?, tires are ???
R: Used on carpet?, tires are ???

For setup, the JFT foam seem to generate more bite than the BSR, therefore the car tends to be a little more aggressive.

Ulti:
Ulti is another Japanese brand that offers an array of compounds. They have their own way of rating tires, and are difficult to equate to other brands. They have 4 different varieties, each in varying degrees of hardness.

J: High rubber content tire, similar to Pink/ Magenta. Soft would be close to a pink. These offer the most bite and are great for asphalt/carpet front tire. (J hard being very popular)
X: "Balanced" blend, similar to JFT Blue/ Green. Soft is equivalent to Green, medium to Blue in hardness. Great for carpet!
Y: High synthetic blend with lower grip, and is not a very popular variety.
Z: A very expensive "special" foam that is supposed to be magic on asphalt. Only make it in soft shore.
European tires:
There are many great European foam tire brands that use their own types of foam, as well as traditional foams. SOmeone with more knowledge about them will need to fill this in!

Tire Diameter:
If you are racing on carpet, you have to evaluate how much grip your track has. If your track is low to medium grip, you can run bigger tires. If you are on higher bite you have to cut them smaller, there is simply no way around it. Bigger tires are needed for asphalt, especially in the rear. The larger tires provide much needed lateral bite.

Carpet (mm):
Low - Medium Bite
Front: 42.0 - 42.5
Rear: 42.5 - 43.00
Medium - High Bite
Front: 40.5 - 41.0
Rear: 41.5 - 42.0
Big Race
Front: 39.5 - 40.0
Rear: 40.5 - 41.0
Asphalt (mm):
Parking Lot
Front: 43.0 - 44.0
Rear: 44.0 - 45.0
Prepped High Bite
Front: 42.0 - 43.0
Rear: 43.0 - 44.0

Tire Saucing:
Most facilities have moved towards odorless traction additives such as SXT. Some of additives evaporate very quickly and some do not. This seems to be something that is also dependent on tire compound and ambient temperature. For example, saucing a Green compound seems like it never dries, especially when tjhe temperature is lower. We have found that wiping the tires off 15 minutes before we go run allows the sauce to cure, which makes the car come in much quicker with Green rears. Blue compounds on the other hand, do fine when wiped off right before hitting the track.

Saucing half front and full rear is a good initial starting point. If the front of the car is too agressive you can sauce les than half, or for a shorter amount of time. On black carpet the car may be numb to sauce changes, either a long or short sauce can produce very similar handling.
Tire Fuzzing:
In conditions of increasing grip, foam tires will somewtimes get sticky and pick up fuzz and debris from the track. This is highly dependent on the rubber sedan tire that is being run at your local track and the compound/ type of foam you are running on you car. The softer the sedan tire and the harder/higher rubber content in your foam tire, trouble with fuzzing seems more likely to occur.

There are ways to get around fuzzing under most conditions, and usually involves the selection of the correct foam compound. The more fuzz you get, the softer/lower rubber content you want to run.

Examples:
Problem: Car fuzzes with Lilac/Team Purple fronts and car starts pushing.
Solution: Use a softer front tire and or different family of foam. Replace it with Blue or Double Blue front. Alternatively you can sauce the front tires harder and tune the car for less front end bite.

Problem: Car loses rear bite 6 minutes into the run. Blue rear tires look almost clean but have small carpet hairs.
Solution: Use Green rear tires. The softer compound wears instead of getting sticky, minimizing fuzz. Possibly a longer sauce will prevent fuzzing.

Tire Selection:
Starting out, pick 2 tire compounds for the front and rear. The following should have you covered 99% of the time.

Rear - Green and Blue (BSR) or Green and Light Blue (JFT)
Front - Blue and Double Blue (BSR) or Blue and Dark Blue (JFT)

You may wonder about other compounds out there and if they might be better, trust me, they probably won't be. Even if there are other tires that can be as fast, the synthetic family wears out really fast and the high natural rubber will probably fuzz on you over an 8 minute run. The blends family seems to be the most versatile foam type available today. They last awhile, and sticking to them will make your process of tire selection simpler.
Tire Charts:
BSR/CRC/Jaco



Contact



Corally



JFT (Japan Foam Tire)



Ulti



Enneti (Xceed)



ELECTRONICS:
ESC:
As of now, ROAR is staying 1S (3.7V nominal; 4.2V fully charged) for 1/12. There are many 1S ESC's with a built in BEC so nothing else is required to power the receiver and servo.

If you don't want to lock yourself into a 1S specific ESC, you do have other options! It is possible to use your 2S ESC without a booster or receiver pack, and the ESC simply supplies the lower voltage. If that does not appeal to you, you will need to use an Rx pack or booster. The Rx pack and booster will both supply the receiver with a higher voltage than the 1S pack.

If you decide to use an Rx pack, MAKE SURE TO REMOVE THE RED WIRE FROM THE ESC PLUG THAT GOES INTO THE RECEIVER!!!

If you choose to use a voltage booster, it works exactly how it sounds. Instead of plugging the ESC into the receiver, it plugs into the booster, and the booster plug goes to the ESC, supplying the higher voltage.

1S ESC:
If there are any missing please add them!!

If anyone would like a need for a chart comparing the ESC's specs PM fenton06 and I'll get one made and put in here!
DISCONTINUED 1S ESC:
If there are any missing please add them!!


If anyone would like a need for a chart comparing the ESC's specs PM fenton06 and I'll get one made and put in here!

Voltage Boosters:
If there are any missing please add them!
Servos:
BODIES:
Black Art (CRC - US Dist):
  • Audi R8C - BA002 - .020 Thick



  • Black Market (Mohawk 12) - BA005 - .020



  • Lola B10 - BA006 - .020 thick
  • Toyota TS030 - BA008 - .020 thick

    Lola - black/red, TS030 - green/pink


PROTOForm:

Reflex Racing/RSD:

SUSPENSION ADJUSTMENTS:
Pan Car Front Suspension Tuning:
DISCLAIMER : The following tuning advice was written based on the tuning experience of the author and may not hold true for all cars, drivers, or surfaces. In the end the best tuning advice is to experiment and make changes one at a time so you can track your changes and find the car balance that works best for your driving style. One real world test is worth a million ‘expert’ opinions.

Front End Type:

All popular modern pan car front suspensions are very similar, with a few exceptions such as Speedmerchant New School but most of the info in this wiki applies to them as well. For the most part, they consist of a rigid bottom arm, an upper A-arm, and a kingpin with a spring. There are different flavors of this general design, such as the CRC Dynamic Strut that uses a threaded kingpin and upper pivot ball instead of the Associated style that uses a kingpin that goes through the entire steering knuckle assembly, but their operation is the same with the rigid lower arm and the upper arm controlling the arc of movement as the suspension is compressed.

Assembly:

More so than in almost any other part of the car, the front suspension of your 1/12 car must move absolutely free. Reamers and hobby knives are important here, as any binding will cause the car to corner unpredictably. A little play in the suspension is a good thing, and racers will often find that ‘worn in’ suspension pieces function a little better than new.

Springs:

Besides tires, spring rate is the most important part of deciding how your car will handle through corners, but are somewhat complicated. As a general rule of thumb, a very hard front spring will have somewhat less steering grip than a softer spring with the same suspension setup and tires, but not as much as in other classes such as touring or offroad. On carpet, springs of different tension can be used to tune how your car will maintain or lose energy through corners with the following general rule of thumb:

Hard Spring (0.55mm or harder): Less overall steering, quick reaction to driver input, less on power steering, harder turn-in with potentially lazy mid-corner and exit.

Soft Spring (.45mm): More overall steering especially at low speed, slightly slower reaction to driver input, more on-power steering, less aggressive turn-in but can ‘hook’ and give better mid-corner and exit.

It is worth noting that front springs from different suppliers are often very different, in both height, wire thickness, and coils for a given spring height meaning that a “medium” spring from one manufacturer may be the “hard” spring for another. To make accurate changes you may want to use one spring maker and stick with their line.

Another aspect to pan car springs is that they can get “blown out” and collapse, no longer as stiff or as tall as they were. These should be replaced with fresh springs to ensure consistent handling.

Dampening:

This is generally a minor adjustment, but adding dampening tube fluid to the front kingpins of a 1/12 car can give it a little more initial steering. Often unusual compounds see use here, such as Losi Smart Diff Grease or Associated Green Slime being a popular front kingpin lube.

Caster and Reactive Caster:

Caster is the angle of the kingpin, almost always angling back to the rear of the car, with a typical range from 0-10 degrees. Increasing your caster will typically result in less turn-in but a little more control, more steering exiting the corner, and somewhat increased straight-line stability with less tendency to wander because a wheel running caster will tend to straighten itself. Less caster will usually give you more off-power steering, but often with correspondingly less on-power when accelerating out of the corner.

Running reactive caster attempts to use both of these aspects to increase overall steering: when the car loads up on the outside front tire, the caster angle decreases, increasing the front end ‘hook’ as you enter the corner and then giving you the high caster on-power steering as you exit and weight is transferred off the front end. More reactive caster means more overall steering, but can mean you may have to adjust your driving style to drive more ‘ahead of the car’, needing to predict where the front end will grip.

As grip increases, less reactive caster is the normal tuning change made to keep the front end of the car from gripping too hard and oversteering and prevent traction roll. Static caster adjustments are still used to change the cars on power / off power steering balance.

Reactive Camber and Front Roll Center:

Reactive camber or camber gain is how much camber is added the front wheels as the suspension compresses. This can be increased or decreased by changing the angle and length of the top arm. Short, angled arm = more. Long, flat arm = less. More reactive camber will typically cause the car to “roll up” on the outer front wheel, transferring more weight in a turn and give more steering up to the point at which the tire is overloaded. This is generally more front grip and weight transfer than wanted on carpet, and as a result most cars run a flatter longer front arm.

Roll Center is the point on which the car will twist laterally or ‘roll’ during cornering. This can be raised or lowered by changing the angle and length of the top arm, with a short angled arm raising is slightly and a long flat arm lowering it. From what I have calculated most modern 1/12 cars meant for carpet have a roll center somewhere around the height of the chassis plate or just below it, but due to the lower arms being rigid and flat the roll center cannot be under the bottom of the tires like it often is on a touring car.
These two are inexorably linked in pan cars. Top arm length can be changed by the top arm mount in or out using shims or a CRC Long Arm kit, but is generally a minor tuning choice. Tuning of roll center with shims is usually a minor tuning choice in a pan car with a rigid bottom arm due to how the car cannot gain extra mechanical advantage on the lower arm as you can in a touring car, while reactive camber can be a significant driver of the car’s performance. In a modern car running on carpet the kit setup is usually perfectly fine.

Front End Alignment:

Static camber is the angle of your front wheels at rest, typically somewhere from 0 to 1.5 degrees on a pan car depending on surface, tire choice, and other factors, but a good starting point is usually somewhere around 0.5 degrees. More camber will typically give more steering, but many racers use static camber to ensure that their tires wear flat even if that means not having exactly equal camber on both sides of the car. This is adjusted by threading in and out the upper turnbuckle or pivot ball.

It is also worth noting that when running on high grip the flex and deformation of your chassis, suspension parts, and front wheels can become significant and cause uneven front tire wear. Some troubleshooting of the right combination of static camber, camber gain, caster, and tire/rim choice may be necessary to ensure even front tire wear.

Toe-In:

The front toe is one of the more easily adjusted aspects of the car and can have a significant effect on the attitude of the car due to it being a quick way to moderately adjust Ackerman without making significant other changes. With nothing else being adjusted, going from zero toe to toe-in will give a car a harder turn-in and will tend to scrub speed with the front end as opposed to using drag brake. This can be necessary when racing in Super Stock or higher power classes and will allow you to drive more aggressively, and can help the car track straighter under power. Toe-out will tend to make the car coast more through corners due to reducing the steering angle of the outer front tire. If a car has too much off-power steering but is otherwise stable, adding toe-out can calm the car but may the car to wander on the straights especially if the front end setup is very soft.

Ackerman:

Ackerman is the difference in steering angle between the two front tires during a turn. It is the result of how during a turn the inside of the car experiences a tighter circle and needs correspondingly more steering angle, but is also an important tuning tool. More Ackerman means having more inside wheel steering angle relative to the outer wheel, less means that the difference in steering angle is smaller.

To add or remove Ackerman, using a servo horn that spaces the links further apart (such as a Kimbrough Small Servo Saver, the outer holes on a Tamiya or Xray servo saver) will have more Ackerman than a servo that puts the links close together (Kimbrough Medium inner holes, Tamiya or Xray inner holes.) The rule of thumb is that a servo that puts the ball studs close together but spaced away from the servo horn will have less Ackerman than one that spaces them far apart and close to the servo horn. Ackerman changes will have the same effect as changing toe with more Ackerman being effectively toeing the wheels out and less toeing them in, but will not affect the straight-line attitude of the car.

Turning Circle / Steering Angle:

In offroad or even touring car you can set up the car to use the full angle of the steering 100% of the time. You will almost certainly not be able to do this in 1/12 scale. It goes without saying that as you turn up your steering angle you will gain steering often to the point of the car being undriveable. The quickest way to set the steering correctly is to set the sub-trim in your radio such that the car tracks straight and the servo horn is straight up and down, then set the endpoints equally such that they don't quite hit the steering bump-stops, then turn down the dual-rate or total throw from there. A typical starting point is somewhere between 45 and 60% of the total steering throw, or a 4-5' turning circle.
SOMEONE ELSE DO THE REAR TUNING SECTION! AND A TROUBLESHOOTING TREE! FEEL FREE TO MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGES!

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Old 01-12-2004, 07:29 AM   #6046
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Dumper - you post looses credibility with you sponsorship from CRC. I agree that Storm gets carried away with his total commitment to Speedmerchant, but you shouldn't be throwing in those little jabs either.
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Old 01-12-2004, 07:42 AM   #6047
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Quote:
Originally posted by dumper


The side links on the back of the CRC car are a million times easier to use. You just pop them on, and it is done. Perfectly aligned. There are not adjustable because they do not have to be. Perfection does not have to be adjusted.

The front end of the CRC is not that complicated. It might be for you, but for most of the people out there, it works fine.


The speedmerchant car does not come complete, and you need to buy things just to complete the kit.
Once you get the football plate properly aligned on the CRC, the links are nearly perfect, aside from all the play in them. And yeah, having to buy the steering turnbuckles for the Rev. 3 is actually a nightmare. I actually had to buy LUNSFORD titanium units!! I only wish it included some crappy steel turnbuckles like all the other kits. And since Purple fronts and Grey rears are ALWAYS the right tires for EVERY track that's good too. At least CRC specs Purple and Greys with their RED Special Edition kits, AE and Trinity just send useless Green tires. And of course thank god Speedmerchant is the only manufacturer that specs the Old Skool front-end!! I know I personally hate front-ends that hold their setting after some no talent hack drives my car into the wall!! I need a front end that's twice as difficult to build and five times as difficult to maintain. Long live the Dynamic Strut !! Not bashing, just offering a little different P.O.V. Any 12th scale kit is good, any kit without a T-bar is great!!!!

P.S. How's it goin' Brian?
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Old 01-12-2004, 07:54 AM   #6048
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I just built my new 3.2 CRC. I haven't even put it on the ground yet to test anything. What about the football? I've recently retired my 12l3. No T-Plate is something new.

Thanks

Jeremy
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:11 AM   #6049
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jc510-To make sure the football is installed correctly, just check the side to side action of the rear suspension. It should not bind or "click". If it does not, then you are fine. If it does, just adjust the football so it does not do that anymore. It is pretty easy.

DavidL-I just get sick and tired of when a newbie to 1/12th scale asks what car is good, and someone says don't get XYZ car because it sucks. None of these cars suck. They all have their strong points and weak points. Yes I am sponsored by Team CRC, but I don't push CRC products on new people. I push 1/12th scale. You have been around as long as I have. You were there in the late 80's when Cleveland was 400+entries of just 1/12th scale, and everyone could only run 1 class. I want to see 1/12th scale back to where it was in its heyday. Everytime someone asks what car to get, Stormperson starts bashing CRC. He should just shut his mouth and help the guy. Leave the bashing to the sedan guys.

Cypress-What's up Ian? Not much here, just getting ready for CT and for Snowbirds.

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Old 01-12-2004, 08:19 AM   #6050
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Nicely put dumper

I too want 12th to regain it's popularity. I remember running a Schumacher "C" car with 1400 SCR batteries and I thought that was a good car.

All of todays cars are so much better and faster. Like you said

Quote:
They all have their strong points and weak points
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:27 AM   #6051
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davidl..........

Upon your reply of dumpers post i just have a few things to say. Its obvious that both these racers are very passionate about their preferred companies that they choose to race with, and regardless if dumper is sponsored or not, I don't believe that he loses any credibility with his answer. He did not "jab" against anyone or anything in his recent post. It was very "politically correct" if I may say. Yes, you can tell he is leaning towards one company, but no words that he had typed had anything negative to say about any other company out there. All he did was add good knowledge about his company. And I don't think its very fair to dumper seeing as how you took it out more so on him that the other person who had much more negativity in his reply.

......::::Vegetto:::::.......

I personally run a CRC Carpet knife and am definately NOT sponsored in any way shape, or form by them, but would reccomend buying one of their kits for a first time or newer racer. Although being somewhat new to racing myself (i was 11 last time i raced, then picked up a radio again when i was 19) my father has been in the hobby since '87. We have been there, done that with many different cars, and have been very happy with the ease of the CRC car. Being not a great driver and seeing a lot of walls close up with my car many times, i have not had to really do any major repairs on it in the 3 years i have had it. The customer service is very good and they are excellentat explaining things to newbies in 12th scale. They have a very well kept forum that has excellent turnaround answers if you have questions also. Good luck in your quest for a kit and have fun racing! Thats whats its all about, right?? :-)
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:00 AM   #6052
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Default Good advice?

Dumper- Any good advice on what or how to tune my 3.2 CRC. I'm new to 1/12 and just left my 12l3. I barely could tune that. Any tweak hints or diff advice would be helpful.

I'm happy to see the 1/12 grow. It is growing out in norcal. We had a C main on a Wednesday night. Now lets get a 19t or stock class going so the newbies can atleast be on the same lap or only 2 laps down.

It is impressive watching the fast guys blow bye you.

I'll get there
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:17 AM   #6053
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I'm going to throw another opinion out there for best cars...a modified 12L3, like a Quad 12 or a RugRat. I'm in in the process of converting me 12L3 from the stock dampening discs to SpeedMerchant dampening tubes, and I think that's all the car really needs (well, it's getting a spring steel t-plate, too...). I know there doesn't seem to be many t-plate car fans around here, but they are good cars. Heck, a stock 12L3 won Cleveland....so they can't suck! I've been at the 18 years myself, and have learned to that Associated style cars are hardly ever out to lunch.
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:26 AM   #6054
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dumper: Nothin much here either. I unfortunately won't see any big race action again untill the Nats. It sucks but what can you do?
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:30 AM   #6055
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brolzy
I'm going to throw another opinion out there for best cars...a modified 12L3, like a Quad 12 or a RugRat. I'm in in the process of converting me 12L3 from the stock dampening discs to SpeedMerchant dampening tubes, and I think that's all the car really needs (well, it's getting a spring steel t-plate, too...). I know there doesn't seem to be many t-plate car fans around here, but they are good cars. Heck, a stock 12L3 won Cleveland....so they can't suck! I've been at the 18 years myself, and have learned to that Associated style cars are hardly ever out to lunch.
Brolzy: It's a great Mod car, and can be made to run well in stock. Hell Vicky Blackstock won stock in Cleveland with a Modified version of the 12L. Of course a link car TQ'd with a time WAAAAAY faster than the times posted in the main, so it's still a debate. Of course the debate, (bench racing) is what makes this hobby fun!
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:30 AM   #6056
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jc510- It is very important to make sure it is tweaked flat. It does not matter if you use a tweak board or two pennies and a knife. I personally use a tweak board. The knife seems to stay flat one you have it tweaked the way you want it. A hard hit will not change the tweak like it will on a T-bar car.

As far as the diff, it should be smooth, not gritty. When you build the diff, just put a tiny drop of the silicone grease on both sides of each ball. As you assemble the diff, you need to break it in. As the nut starts putting pressure on the diff assembly, turn the right tire one way, and the left tire the other. It helps to seat everything. I do that every half turn of the nut. As the pressure increases, you need to break in the rings. To do that, hold the right tire and the spur gear with your right hand and turn the left rear tire. The diff should "squeal" (or sound like 8 metal balls being ground against a metal ring ). Turn the left rear a couple times. Then hold the left rear tire and the spur and turn the right rear. It should make the same noise. Give the nut another half turn, and repeat. Keep doing this until you reach the desired tightness of the diff. I run my diff tightened to the point where if I hold both rear tires and try to move the spur gear with my thumb, it barely moves or does not move.

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Old 01-12-2004, 09:32 AM   #6057
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cypress-I should be at the Nats too. Has a date been decided on that yet?
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:28 AM   #6058
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cypress-I should be at the Nats too. Has a date been decided on that yet?
3/24 through 3/28, my brutha from anutha mutha. You'll get to hear my smooth vocal stylings on the mic all weekend long.
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Old 01-12-2004, 11:13 AM   #6059
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I'm glad it is at the end of the month. After running both Road Course and Oval at Snowbirds, I am going to need some time to get myself together. What is the schedule for the nats? Is there a website with info?


"You are listening to the smooth velvety tones of Ian Ruggles as I take you into the late night practice session at the US Indoor Champs"

2004 Us Indoor Champs start in 317 days.
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Old 01-12-2004, 11:46 AM   #6060
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I'm glad it is at the end of the month. After running both Road Course and Oval at Snowbirds, I am going to need some time to get myself together. What is the schedule for the nats? Is there a website with info?


"You are listening to the smooth velvety tones of Ian Ruggles as I take you into the late night practice session at the US Indoor Champs"

2004 Us Indoor Champs start in 317 days.
2004 ROAR Nationals Information

Try that my friend.

According to some inside sources there's going to be a bit of a schedule change for the '04 Indoor Champs that will prevent that insanity. I guess the Champs staff decided that my alcohol intake was WAAAAAY down this year compared to years past, and they felt sorry for me.
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