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This is a place to share knowledge related to 1/12th scale racing. It is not to be used for conversations.

KITS:
Click links to go to manufacturer product page. If any are missing please add them!

TIRES:
Pre-mounted tires readily available in the US:
Pre-mounted tires readily available in the Europe:
  • Hot Race ??

Gluing your own donuts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm7z1rz-74s - Special thanks to Edward Pickering!
Truing tires:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wqHOLWq6Uc - Special thanks to Edward Pickering!

The following information came from HERE, with some editing and information added. Thanks Christian!

THIS MAY NEED UPDATING FOR THE NEW BLACK CRC CARPET

Brands:
BSR, CRC, Jaco:
Pro One is no longer selling to the public, but it and the brands above are all mounted by BSR and use the same foam. The nomenclature of the BSR vs Jaco/CRC is a little different in a few instances but is otherwise the same. The BSR foam consists of three families, and can be identifed as synthetics, naturals, and blends.

Synthetics - The old school, light weight, easy to true "dry feeling" tires. These include tires like CRC/Jaco Yellow (BSR White), Black, Gray, etc. These tires offer the highest wear rate and lowest grip. Many racers continue to use these nder high bite conditions.

Naturals - These tires are usually the best alternative for low bite and asphalt. They include Pink, Magenta, Double Pink, Lilac (BSR Team Purple), Purple, and other tires. These tires provide a ton of grip, but tend to get sticky in high bite conditions. This rubber does not wear as easily, and the cars will pick up gunk and fibers from the carpet under most high bite conditions. This is especially bad if the humidity is high.

Blends - These are the tires most people run today. They were initially called "JFT foam" by some, as it was believed that the tires were the same as the JFT tires. We can divide the blends further into two groups: high rubber and low rubber content. The high rubber would be the new rear Orange and Red from the BSR family, and the low rubber would be the Green and Blue varieties. When, asked about the difference, John Foister from BSR Tires said they came from the same "family" of foam, but they offered different grip. According to John, the Green/Blue has more bite than Orange/Red, but from track testing Oranges offer more bite than Green (being equivalent to in hardness) when the grip is high and absolutely no grip when it is lower. The Orange foam has a denser pore structure and the tire is not as prone to chunking. It is also important to note is that BSR Blue rears are not the same as the BSR Blue fronts!

JFT:
JFT stands for Japan Foam Tire. They started the new wave of foam tires we are all using now (Blue/Blu, Green/Greene, Dbl Blue, etc). These tires are a little different than the BSR tire family, but work in very similar conditions. They offers four varieties A (asphalt), C (carpet), S (???), and R (???). This does not mean that those types only work on that surface, but this is what they recommend.

JFT uses the same foam for fronts and rears if the color is the same.

A: Used on asphalt, considered close to the natural rubber variety and are named consistently with other natural tires.
C: Used on carpet, considered a blend.
S: Used on carpet?, tires are ???
R: Used on carpet?, tires are ???

For setup, the JFT foam seem to generate more bite than the BSR, therefore the car tends to be a little more aggressive.

Ulti:
Ulti is another Japanese brand that offers an array of compounds. They have their own way of rating tires, and are difficult to equate to other brands. They have 4 different varieties, each in varying degrees of hardness.

J: High rubber content tire, similar to Pink/ Magenta. Soft would be close to a pink. These offer the most bite and are great for asphalt/carpet front tire. (J hard being very popular)
X: "Balanced" blend, similar to JFT Blue/ Green. Soft is equivalent to Green, medium to Blue in hardness. Great for carpet!
Y: High synthetic blend with lower grip, and is not a very popular variety.
Z: A very expensive "special" foam that is supposed to be magic on asphalt. Only make it in soft shore.
European tires:
There are many great European foam tire brands that use their own types of foam, as well as traditional foams. SOmeone with more knowledge about them will need to fill this in!

Tire Diameter:
If you are racing on carpet, you have to evaluate how much grip your track has. If your track is low to medium grip, you can run bigger tires. If you are on higher bite you have to cut them smaller, there is simply no way around it. Bigger tires are needed for asphalt, especially in the rear. The larger tires provide much needed lateral bite.

Carpet (mm):
Low - Medium Bite
Front: 42.0 - 42.5
Rear: 42.5 - 43.00
Medium - High Bite
Front: 40.5 - 41.0
Rear: 41.5 - 42.0
Big Race
Front: 39.5 - 40.0
Rear: 40.5 - 41.0
Asphalt (mm):
Parking Lot
Front: 43.0 - 44.0
Rear: 44.0 - 45.0
Prepped High Bite
Front: 42.0 - 43.0
Rear: 43.0 - 44.0

Tire Saucing:
Most facilities have moved towards odorless traction additives such as SXT. Some of additives evaporate very quickly and some do not. This seems to be something that is also dependent on tire compound and ambient temperature. For example, saucing a Green compound seems like it never dries, especially when tjhe temperature is lower. We have found that wiping the tires off 15 minutes before we go run allows the sauce to cure, which makes the car come in much quicker with Green rears. Blue compounds on the other hand, do fine when wiped off right before hitting the track.

Saucing half front and full rear is a good initial starting point. If the front of the car is too agressive you can sauce les than half, or for a shorter amount of time.
Tire Fuzzing:
In conditions of increasing grip, foam tires will somewtimes get sticky and pick up fuzz and debris from the track. This is highly dependent on the rubber sedan tire that is being run at your local track and the compound/ type of foam you are running on you car. The softer the sedan tire and the harder/higher rubber content in your foam tire, trouble with fuzzing seems more likely to occur.

There are ways to get around fuzzing under most conditions, and usually involves the selection of the correct foam compound. The more fuzz you get, the softer/lower rubber content you want to run.

Examples:
Problem: Car fuzzes with Lilac/Team Purple fronts and car starts pushing.
Solution: Use a softer front tire and or different family of foam. Replace it with Blue or Double Blue front.

Problem: Car loses rear bite 6 minutes into the run. Blue rear tires look almost clean but have small carpet hairs.
Solution: Use Green rear tires. The softer compound wears instead of getting sticky, minimizing fuzz.

Tire Selection:
Starting out, pick 2 tire compounds for the front and rear. The following should have you covered 99% of the time.

Front - Green and Blue (BSR) or Green and Light Blue (JFT)
Rear - Blue and Double Blue (BSR) or Blue and Dark Blue (JFT)

You may wonder about other compounds out there and if they might be better, trust me, they probably won't be. Even if there are other tires that can be as fast, the synthetic family wears out really fast and the high natural rubber will probably fuzz on you over an 8 minute run. The blends family seems to be the most versatile foam type available today. They last awhile, and sticking to them will make your process of tire selection simpler.
Tire Charts:
BSR/CRC/Jaco



Contact



Corally



JFT (Japan Foam Tire)



Ulti



Enneti (Xceed)



ELECTRONICS:
ESC:
As of now, ROAR is staying 1S (3.7V nominal; 4.2V fully charged) for 1/12. There are many 1S ESC's with a built in BEC so nothing else is required to power the receiver and servo.

If you don't want to lock yourself into a 1S specific ESC, you do have other options! It is possible to use your 2S ESC without a booster or receiver pack, and the ESC simply supplies the lower voltage. If that does not appeal to you, you will need to use an Rx pack or booster. The Rx pack and booster will both supply the receiver with a higher voltage than the 1S pack.

If you decide to use an Rx pack, MAKE SURE TO REMOVE THE RED WIRE FROM THE ESC PLUG THAT GOES INTO THE RECEIVER!!!

If you choose to use a voltage booster, it works exactly how it sounds. Instead of plugging the ESC into the receiver, it plugs into the booster, and the booster plug goes to the ESC, supplying the higher voltage.

1S ESC:
If there are any missing please add them!!

If anyone would like a need for a chart comparing the ESC's specs PM fenton06 and I'll get one made and put in here!
Voltage Boosters:
If there are any missing please add them!
Servos:
BODIES:
Black Art (CRC - US Dist):
  • Audi R8C - BA002 - .020 Thick



  • Black Market (Mohawk 12) - BA005 - .020



  • Lola B10 - BA006 - .020 thick
  • Toyota TS030 - BA008 - .020 thick

    Lola - black/red, TS030 - green/pink


PROTOForm:

Reflex Racing/RSD:

SUSPENSION ADJUSTMENTS:

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Old 08-12-2007, 07:22 PM   #26671
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http://www.cyclone12-blog.com/

this person got the new 12th
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:26 AM   #26672
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Originally Posted by smojoe View Post
This is one 12th scale racer who is getting out of 12th because technology is labeled as "not needed." To which I say, got back to your dial-up internet and 64mb of ram
If you honoestly think LiPo technology will solve your battery issues you're in for a big disappointment. I've been using them in aircraft applications long enough to know that their ONLY advantage over NiCd or NiMh is weight. They're definitely not more rugged or stable than any of the current crop of nickel-based batteries, and variations in performance from one pack to another even from the same manufacturer in the same production batch is pretty big.

People have been complaining about batteries ever since we raced with unmatched GE1000 cells. I don't for a second believe that it will be any different with LiPo.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:18 AM   #26673
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If you honoestly think LiPo technology will solve your battery issues you're in for a big disappointment.
Okay.


Anyone need a pre-order for two BMI DB12Rs?
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:51 AM   #26674
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Originally Posted by schurcr View Post
Smjoe and OD, yes I plan on running LiPo this winter. I've been talking to Josh as well and he gave me info on someone running 1S-2P(????) two packs in parallel for increased capacty running 3.7v and a receiver pack with a GTB & 3.5.
I'm actually the one that was running the LiPo 12th at Josh's. They work fine and you can fit a 12 cell saddle pack into a 12th pretty easily. The pack that I ran was made from 2 Maxamps receiver packs and had about 5100mAh. That's 1S 12P I think 1 series 12 parallel.

It was just enough to drive a 3.5 hard for 8 minutes.

Like anything else, LiPo has good and bad things to bring to 12th.

The good things are running a single pack all day and light weight that gives less tire wear.

The bad things are price, slower speeds, reciever pack is a must, and longer charge times. The pack I ran was about $100 with shipping and I had to take them apart and resolder (aluminum tabs suck btw).

I doubt that many people will look at single cell voltage because it's slower for a given wind. Anything that slows the class down (especially the stock guys) is met with fierce resistance.
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:52 PM   #26675
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It has been said here that a 3.5 BL with Lipo is turning lap times of a 19t 4cell, is this true . If that is true what would you run in Mod?
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:46 PM   #26676
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and it is in my opinion that you are wrong.
Ditto.

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Originally Posted by smojoe View Post
lipo may not be the future, but the future for Ni based cells doesn't look good. Unless the guys you race with agree on what cells to run, someone is going to show up with WCs with 1.24xV, whether the voltage is legit or bull. It may be that have wandered out of the 12th section because I have a touring car, but a large percentage of the good drivers have good equipment, so for us that have neither talent nor money, lipo looks good.
This is exactly the same argument put forward when we got SCRs, SCRCs, SCEs, Panasonics... If you look at the 30-year history of cells, it is that new technology often didn't do what it promised at first, but eventually it did. Making these statements based on less than 12 months usage isn't safe. I've had these cells too, for almost 10 months, and never had a single problem. Placing your experience onto everyone isn't a good basis for an effective diagnosis of the situation.

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Originally Posted by smojoe View Post
The old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality only goes so far. If the world as we knew it stayed like that, I would be writing this on a stone tablet. It wouldn't be fun writing on a stone tablet, but I have no imagination for what could be better, and thus it is the best thing period. I have a problem with dishing out $100+ bucks twice a season to stay competitive. To me, the NiMH batteries of today are broken. I would break out the old GP 3700's but those were long ago put in a recycling box because I didn't think the next generation of cells would be junk. "Oh, mr. smojoe, but EPs aren't junk!" I could care less what people think about them; they are heavy, costly, and have a shelf life of meat left out of the refrigerator.
The change isn't the stone tablet, it would be change if we could have thought transference. We still write. Most people don't shell out $200 per season, but you are asking them to shell out $00s for a new charger, balancer and wiring system to run LiPo. LiPo at the current level of technology looks great, but so did 1200Mah when we ran 35T motors for four minutes in 12th. Give it time, there will be all sorts of upgrading required to keep pace in LiPo, and none of the batteries will reach the end of their useful life before being superceded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smojoe View Post
This is one 12th scale racer who is getting out of 12th because technology is labeled as "not needed." To which I say, got back to your dial-up internet and 64mb of ram
...just like computers! I need 500Mb of RAM because of the inefficiency of the software, nothing else has changed. I use Broadband because of the inefficiency of web pages, nothing else has changed. This is not new technology, it is upgrading of existing technology to improve performance to take account of poor efficiency. We don't have that problem in 12th. LiPo is not a technology upgrade, and it doesn't improve performance, it is simply a different way of delivering the same thing.

However, it would also mean everyone had to change their 12th cars suspension to cope with the weight changes, and invest in receiver packs that need additional charging, and change weight rules and... seems to me to be a major inconvenience to all 12th racers. It isn't the upgrade to LiPos that is the issue, it is the consequnces of that that will be a downside.
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:50 PM   #26677
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You have to be careful about what LiPo you're talking about, For the single cell voltage a 3.5 was about the same speed as a 5.5 on 4 cells. A 13.5 (sintered) on single cell voltage is slower than brushed stock 4 cell.

My personal opinion is that they should leave the stock and 19 turn classes as is. If we do anything to the stock and 19 turn classes that might slow them down peoples heads will explode.

For mod, I would like to see the option of 2 cell LiPo with a capacity limit on the pack. Limit to say 3200 mAh or so and let the drivers actually drive again. The cars would be much faster on the straight when you pull it but if you pull it too much you'll dump. It puts all of the strategy and driver skill back into mod. LiPo would get a huge weight break also.
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Old 08-13-2007, 01:52 PM   #26678
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SlowerOne,

Let me guess, you run stock.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:47 PM   #26679
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
This is exactly the same argument put forward when we got SCRs, SCRCs, SCEs, Panasonics... If you look at the 30-year history of cells, it is that new technology often didn't do what it promised at first, but eventually it did. Making these statements based on less than 12 months usage isn't safe. I've had these cells too, for almost 10 months, and never had a single problem. Placing your experience onto everyone isn't a good basis for an effective diagnosis of the situation.
So I am the only one to wake up in the middle of the night and think "Oh s**t I forgot to charge my batteries"? and I would rather spend the $160 for a Tekin battery doctor on something that isn't an expensive fix for a bad problem (such as tires. I always need more tires)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
The change isn't the stone tablet, it would be change if we could have thought transference. We still write. Most people don't shell out $200 per season, but you are asking them to shell out $00s for a new charger, balancer and wiring system to run LiPo. LiPo at the current level of technology looks great, but so did 1200Mah when we ran 35T motors for four minutes in 12th. Give it time, there will be all sorts of upgrading required to keep pace in LiPo, and none of the batteries will reach the end of their useful life before being superceded...
A majority of new chargers come with lipo capabilities (if they keep up with cell technology they must no longer be using a time charger), balancers only need to be used a few times a year (or less) so a few of your race buddies can throw in some cash and everyone goes home with balanced lipo packs, and I have no idea what you mean by wiring system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
...just like computers! I need 500Mb of RAM because of the inefficiency of the software, nothing else has changed. I use Broadband because of the inefficiency of web pages, nothing else has changed. This is not new technology, it is upgrading of existing technology to improve performance to take account of poor efficiency. We don't have that problem in 12th. LiPo is not a technology upgrade, and it doesn't improve performance, it is simply a different way of delivering the same thing.
inefficiency is something we have to put up with. it is inefficient to buy a bad product twice a year (more or less depending on a lot of factors) when you can buy something once and use it until you don't have a need for it, rather then you can't use it anymore due to its flawed design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
However, it would also mean everyone had to change their 12th cars suspension to cope with the weight changes, and invest in receiver packs that need additional charging, and change weight rules and... seems to me to be a major inconvenience to all 12th racers. It isn't the upgrade to LiPos that is the issue, it is the consequnces of that that will be a downside.
we change cars to cope with surface changes. How many 12th cars do you have? I doubt you have one car that is THE car to have on EVERY surface.*

*I originally wrote a huge argument regarding the rest of your points, but I ended up going so far off topic that... well... it made me seem even weirder then I make myself out to be.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:51 PM   #26680
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SlowerOne,

Let me guess, you run stock.
Nope, we run Stock and Mod over here, and I generally run Mod at Club. We find that BL in Mod means that cells are no longer an issue, for either voltage or duration.

12th is a driving class, and it is simple to enter because the technology and designs are stable, the drivers are very helpful, and the class is fun. Part of the de-stabilisation of TC has been the relentless change over the last three years - a situation we don't need.

Whether or not LiPo is the future, it has been the incessant clamour for 'equivalence' that has added to this uncertainty, especially in TC. What's needed is a proper alternative class that allows in the new technology, and gives people a proper choice, and not an endless (and unresolvable) discussion about equivalence.

Personally, I believe that it would be better to use 7.4v, and to use the 18th size (eg Mamba) BL motors with a weight limit about 500g - these are products that enhance the speed, agility and simplicity of 12th. That way we don't add the complication of receiver packs, the cell capacity limits itself, and we get to move forward, not stay stuck in a useless loop about equvalence, where there is none. This way, we can get the advantages of the LiPo and BL way of delivering and converting power, the light, speedy nature of 12th that rewards the driver, and we have the advantage of not adding any additional complexity.

New developments in batteries and cells need to be offered by a new market (class) not by a simplistic approach that brings uncertainty to a class whose main attraction is its stability and ease of access. Whatever we do, it must never be to allow the mistakes of TC to be visited on 12th.

Instead of focusing on some part of the technology, focus on the overall benefit to 12th - stop talking about the price of everything, and focus on the value of something.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:55 PM   #26681
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne View Post
Personally, I believe that it would be better to use 7.4v, and to use the 18th size (eg Mamba) BL motors with a weight limit about 500g - these are products that enhance the speed, agility and simplicity of 12th.
alright, no more arguing about lipo; let's get this thought into reality.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:30 PM   #26682
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Stock and mod 12th were both a driver's class 10 years ago but now, all you have to do is yank on the throttle and try not to hit anything.

Back in the day, the top drivers had to use a smooth throttle finger, good strategy, and a clean run to finish. It was the total package that won the race. If you hit another driver it hurt both of you. The racing was cleaner because it had to be.

Now, you can drive mod pretty much as hard as a stocker and punt anyone you like at a big race. You won't dump and the promoters of the big races will do nothing about the bad driving that's going on.

I won't get into sedan but it's a similar story.
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Old 08-13-2007, 05:29 PM   #26683
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Is there a reason why Lipo battery cannot be made in a Sub-C casing? If you cannot tell I don't know much about Lipo's
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Old 08-13-2007, 05:31 PM   #26684
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Stock and mod 12th were both a driver's class 10 years ago but now, all you have to do is yank on the throttle and try not to hit anything.

Back in the day, the top drivers had to use a smooth throttle finger, good strategy, and a clean run to finish. It was the total package that won the race. If you hit another driver it hurt both of you. The racing was cleaner because it had to be.

Now, you can drive mod pretty much as hard as a stocker and punt anyone you like at a big race. You won't dump and the promoters of the big races will do nothing about the bad driving that's going on.

I won't get into sedan but it's a similar story.
I agree....just a few years ago w/3300s runtime was an issue. Many top drivers had to use a receiver pack. Today is a different story just as you mentioned. I'm with OD on this one and hope lipo never makes it to 1/12. Why do we need to change when we have all the battery capacity we need.

What''s next, running 3 cell just to slow the cars down? This is not TC!
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Old 08-13-2007, 05:41 PM   #26685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Stock and mod 12th were both a driver's class 10 years ago but now, all you have to do is yank on the throttle and try not to hit anything.

Back in the day, the top drivers had to use a smooth throttle finger, good strategy, and a clean run to finish. It was the total package that won the race. If you hit another driver it hurt both of you. The racing was cleaner because it had to be.

Now, you can drive mod pretty much as hard as a stocker and punt anyone you like at a big race. You won't dump and the promoters of the big races will do nothing about the bad driving that's going on.

I won't get into sedan but it's a similar story.

Man that is the truth, I like the ease/use of lipo in TC; it makes sense and while I'm not against change change just for the sake of change is wrong.
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