Touring car or Pan car?
01-31-2010, 12:54 PM
#16
One of the things I love about pan cars is how easy maintenance is, a lot less stuff to take care of.
01-31-2010, 04:15 PM
#18
I disagree with both statements, Dr speed and Mr Kendall. But I'm too lazy to argue... just keep in mind I could prove you wrong.
01-31-2010, 06:55 PM
#19
Starting onroad with a pan car is a great way to be disgusted and never want to come back to onroad EVER !
Don't get me wrong, I love both equally, but starting with foam tires is just absurd.
Pan car is so much more subtle to setup than TC...
Seriously, do yourself a favor, go RUBBER TC and in 2 years, when you're hooked up to onroad, try a well setup 1/12th car. By then you'll be ready to have the commitment and patience it takes to enjoy pan cars, padawan.
TC is great, it is fast, furthermore IT IS CHEAPER THAN ANY PAN CAR when raced at a similar level, and people who say it's too complicated are wrong, they just don't want you to beat them after 2 days of practice.
Don't get me wrong, I love both equally, but starting with foam tires is just absurd.
Pan car is so much more subtle to setup than TC...
Seriously, do yourself a favor, go RUBBER TC and in 2 years, when you're hooked up to onroad, try a well setup 1/12th car. By then you'll be ready to have the commitment and patience it takes to enjoy pan cars, padawan.
TC is great, it is fast, furthermore IT IS CHEAPER THAN ANY PAN CAR when raced at a similar level, and people who say it's too complicated are wrong, they just don't want you to beat them after 2 days of practice.
Sedans cost $50 to $100 more to buy than a 1/12th or WGT car. Tires cost more and batteries cost more. Suspension tuning on a sedan is WAY more complicated and requires A LOT more attendtion to detail. Sedans can handle awesome but you have to get the suspension perfect to get them that way. Even if you have a perfect setup from an experienced sedan racer to put on your car I have seen novices mess that up just from a lack of experience and have a crappy handling car.
There are about 60% less things to go wrong on a pan car vs. a sedan. Foam tires last about as long as rubber tires do unless you run rubber tires until they have holes in them and when you have to replace them $25 will get you a set of 4. Good sedan tires are $35-$40 (Yeah Jaco's are $30 but I said good tires).
The best handing car for a guy looking to have fun is a World GT car. The tires last forever, they handle AWESOME, are mellow to drive and cheap to keep running.
01-31-2010, 07:10 PM
#20
agreed with adrian.. if there is any knock on pancars at all, it is that they do require "better" tracks.. not necessarily perfect, but they don't do well on crappy surfaces.. especially with more power..
if you got a wgt.. took it easy for 2 outings, you'll be hooked.. they can be as calm to drive or whicked fast and agressive to drive as you like.. the tuning window is much wider to get close.. and they are cheap to run..
if you got a wgt.. took it easy for 2 outings, you'll be hooked.. they can be as calm to drive or whicked fast and agressive to drive as you like.. the tuning window is much wider to get close.. and they are cheap to run..
01-31-2010, 07:25 PM
#21
+1 for pan cars or I would rather say foam cars.
When you run foam on carpet, there is just so much traction even with TC. With so much traction, there is room for error on setups.
When you run foam on carpet, there is just so much traction even with TC. With so much traction, there is room for error on setups.
01-31-2010, 08:02 PM
#22
Living in FL we race outdoors all year. Some of the places we race are parking lot tracks. Just because its a pan car dosen't mean it has to run 3mm off the ground. For really bumpy tracks I have run my 1/12th cars at 5mm to almost 6mm ride height and gone way faster then guys trying to keep them low on the same track.
01-31-2010, 08:17 PM
#23
I agree with Adrian and Tally. Pan is easier on the" wallet"- easier to "set-up".All I race in parking lots . Most of our state series races are on parking lots. While the touring guys are working on there set-ups I'm usually done and walking around visiting my other friends racing the World Gt's.I go to races to visit my friends- have a good time and race.By racing a Pan car it makes R/C racing fun again.Oh and I've been doing this for 30 years on parking lots.
01-31-2010, 09:27 PM
#24
Well today was the day to get my hands dirty with other peoples cars and it was a blast. I first would like to thank all the fine folks at TZII for a good comparison between cars. I started with a 1/12 pan car that a very kind gentlemen let me run
I started really slow but it didn't take to long for me to get a good feel for it. The car was confidence inspiring and easy to drive and my comfort level was very good. Next I ran a touring car with some setup issues and it felt much different. I had a hard time making anykind of decent laps with it but overall it was still a good experience. Tword the end of the day I ran a few laps with a WGT car and as I thought it felt very much like the 1/12 pan car. A little bigger and a little smoother overall but again very easy to drive.
So my dilema still stands but so far the 1/10 pan seems to stand out overall. I learned a little about foams today so I am not as worried about tire maintenance as I was before.
Thanks again TZII guys
I started really slow but it didn't take to long for me to get a good feel for it. The car was confidence inspiring and easy to drive and my comfort level was very good. Next I ran a touring car with some setup issues and it felt much different. I had a hard time making anykind of decent laps with it but overall it was still a good experience. Tword the end of the day I ran a few laps with a WGT car and as I thought it felt very much like the 1/12 pan car. A little bigger and a little smoother overall but again very easy to drive. So my dilema still stands but so far the 1/10 pan seems to stand out overall. I learned a little about foams today so I am not as worried about tire maintenance as I was before.
Thanks again TZII guys
02-01-2010, 03:11 AM
#25
OK my bad then.
I was reffering mainly to the foam tire hassle, loss of diameter, numerous compounds, chunking, rollout, etc etc etc
I you read mark paynes blog you may get an idea of how complicated it is to have a really balanced 12/th car. I had to make a choice, to focus on one class and I picked TC for this reason mainly: rubber.
I spend lot of time on my TC, and am quite anal about setting everything straight, but to me 12/th is even more time and money consuming, because the chassis is ( to me ) 15 % less complicated while the tires are 250% more complicated to manage.
to each is own, I take pride in being very liberal after all
, but I would NEVER ! advise an on road newcomer to start with a foam class, it's plain nonsense. Tire compound is a sufficient supplementary hassle when you come from off road.
The risk I see is that they find it "easy" to drive because of the grip, but they have difficulties finding a consistent setup because to do that you have to realise that 12/th scale is 45 min on the bench to have 8 good minutes of driving.
TC can afford you 30 minutes on the bench (in practice) for 10min on the track with a pretty decent level of performance. With that ratio in 1/12 the car would be a disaster.
Hasn't foam TC taught anything? people saying that a foam TC is easier to setup etc, when actually they are SLOW and the massive and often excessive grip hides the crappy setup and makes the user catch bad driving habits, while the car keeps getting worse as the diameter decreases, the tires chunks, etc...
To be just okay in a foam class you need a stopwatch/chronometer for the additive monitoring and rotate AT LEAST 3 full sets of tires during the day, admitting you have a good choice of tire.
I could go on for hours but you got the idea...
I have to say I'm very surprised by your answers... but what do I know.
Hope my english makes enough sense to be understood.
I was reffering mainly to the foam tire hassle, loss of diameter, numerous compounds, chunking, rollout, etc etc etc
I you read mark paynes blog you may get an idea of how complicated it is to have a really balanced 12/th car. I had to make a choice, to focus on one class and I picked TC for this reason mainly: rubber.
I spend lot of time on my TC, and am quite anal about setting everything straight, but to me 12/th is even more time and money consuming, because the chassis is ( to me ) 15 % less complicated while the tires are 250% more complicated to manage.
to each is own, I take pride in being very liberal after all
, but I would NEVER ! advise an on road newcomer to start with a foam class, it's plain nonsense. Tire compound is a sufficient supplementary hassle when you come from off road.The risk I see is that they find it "easy" to drive because of the grip, but they have difficulties finding a consistent setup because to do that you have to realise that 12/th scale is 45 min on the bench to have 8 good minutes of driving.
TC can afford you 30 minutes on the bench (in practice) for 10min on the track with a pretty decent level of performance. With that ratio in 1/12 the car would be a disaster.
Hasn't foam TC taught anything? people saying that a foam TC is easier to setup etc, when actually they are SLOW and the massive and often excessive grip hides the crappy setup and makes the user catch bad driving habits, while the car keeps getting worse as the diameter decreases, the tires chunks, etc...
To be just okay in a foam class you need a stopwatch/chronometer for the additive monitoring and rotate AT LEAST 3 full sets of tires during the day, admitting you have a good choice of tire.
I could go on for hours but you got the idea...
I have to say I'm very surprised by your answers... but what do I know.
Hope my english makes enough sense to be understood.
02-01-2010, 04:20 AM
#26
Well, the one who has ran both 1/12 and TC in some cases might aggree with you, Heretic.
Some points that You mentioned are very precise (yet one still could feel you were very disappointed by some 1/12 car in the past).
However, what i experienced in my homeclub, and what i also have seen in neighbor countries, starting with TC's might be just as bad - newbies often overlook ungluing rubber tyres, adjust height with downstops, have preload tweaks on springs, binding steering mechanisms, not to mention poorly set ride heights, air-loaded shocks and so on...
What we found is that newbie, that has got the proper WGT car is spending much more time on the track than in pits, going around experienced guys and asking if his car is OK. In most cases experienced driver tries to "solve" the mystery of bad setup, but rarely has time to find out every binding lower arm.
Sure, there is always some hassle with ride height on WGT car (hence foam tyres) but it is very easy for "coaching" experienced guy to point out where newbie is making setup mistakes, as the car usually has very few points to make something wrong. Please note that i mention WGT, not 1/12th.
I have quite enough experience with all 3 types of cars and IMHO WGT is the best one for a new guy to start with, while 1/12th might be quite opposite - the most attention requiring just because of set-up sensitivity.
Sure, i might be wrong, but this is just my 0.2
Some points that You mentioned are very precise (yet one still could feel you were very disappointed by some 1/12 car in the past).
However, what i experienced in my homeclub, and what i also have seen in neighbor countries, starting with TC's might be just as bad - newbies often overlook ungluing rubber tyres, adjust height with downstops, have preload tweaks on springs, binding steering mechanisms, not to mention poorly set ride heights, air-loaded shocks and so on...
What we found is that newbie, that has got the proper WGT car is spending much more time on the track than in pits, going around experienced guys and asking if his car is OK. In most cases experienced driver tries to "solve" the mystery of bad setup, but rarely has time to find out every binding lower arm.
Sure, there is always some hassle with ride height on WGT car (hence foam tyres) but it is very easy for "coaching" experienced guy to point out where newbie is making setup mistakes, as the car usually has very few points to make something wrong. Please note that i mention WGT, not 1/12th.
I have quite enough experience with all 3 types of cars and IMHO WGT is the best one for a new guy to start with, while 1/12th might be quite opposite - the most attention requiring just because of set-up sensitivity.
Sure, i might be wrong, but this is just my 0.2
02-01-2010, 04:53 AM
#27
I hear you, okay...
I don't know about WGT since my last run with something similar was with my L3, about 3 years ago. But you are right, I have vivid memories of chasing the asymmetry for one whole day of practice, driving me crazy, checking every single part of the car with digital calipers etc... and I sincerely don't know how it could be that much more simple nowadays.
I race TC only and very often I spend the day aside 1/12th guys, and not newbies, believe me. I try their cars sometime, and while I'm fond of the driving sensation and experience it gives me, I feel ALMOST ALWAYS a slight asymmetry in their car ,enough to bother me, and yet we run on a billard table-like carpet, with more than decent grip.
My only concern is for this guy motoman to enjoy on road, and if he is well advised by skilled guys and does not get bored from the bench/track ratio, I say AMEN, you'll love pan cars and if well setup and maintained , it is an excellent driving school.
I don't know about WGT since my last run with something similar was with my L3, about 3 years ago. But you are right, I have vivid memories of chasing the asymmetry for one whole day of practice, driving me crazy, checking every single part of the car with digital calipers etc... and I sincerely don't know how it could be that much more simple nowadays.
I race TC only and very often I spend the day aside 1/12th guys, and not newbies, believe me. I try their cars sometime, and while I'm fond of the driving sensation and experience it gives me, I feel ALMOST ALWAYS a slight asymmetry in their car ,enough to bother me, and yet we run on a billard table-like carpet, with more than decent grip.
My only concern is for this guy motoman to enjoy on road, and if he is well advised by skilled guys and does not get bored from the bench/track ratio, I say AMEN, you'll love pan cars and if well setup and maintained , it is an excellent driving school.
02-01-2010, 05:44 AM
#28
You guys are wrong but that's your opinion and that's what we are giving here right.Tires here in the state are usually purple fronts and pink rears both in doors and outdoors for my WGT car.That's what I raced on my 1/12th and WGT.Staring with a 1/12th really gives you a head start on everyone else to me.That's what I started with. They are quicker and you learn to react better with them.Since the diameter of the tires changes -depends on the track surface to how much.Worring about tire diameter is jumping ahead of your selfs.Even when I true my tires down I get 3-4 or more runs out of them.And what I trash the oval guys like. Then there is the tire traction- simple stuff and been useing it for years. Indoors get some Goop hand cleaner without pumice.Out doors coppertone 45 (the white stuff). Then there is the stuff I make.Or the Trinity RED dot. But no matter what I've run 1/12th-1/10th electric pan cars-Nitro 1/10th and TC.The pan cars are still easier to drive and mantain than any TC.Just go to any race as ask the people running them. I'd say most of the new TC drivers have never worked on a pan car. And I don't want to work on a TC again.
02-01-2010, 06:01 AM
#29
02-01-2010, 08:29 AM
#30
Me and about 8 of my buddies started racing 1/12th pan car this year.... we are all offroad guys who started onroad to make the winters go by faster......... I absolutely love Pan cars, they are absolutely fantastic.... At our level the maintenance is super easy, the cars are silly easy to drive and we have had some awesome races already...the only thing i can complain about is that we haven't done this sooner....... I am a rookie carpet racer and the Pan cars have been awesome for myself and my group........I also have to say that the pan cars can take some nasty hits and not break LOL !!!! IMO the touring cars are much harder to drive and definitely more complicated to get setup.....