Ernest Provetti Open letter to RC Industry
03-18-2010, 01:59 PM
#286
Another idea that has been tried and I broached this in a WGT discussion...have RC events at legit road racing events like WC and ALMS. Get RC out in front of the masses. have manufacturers selling their wares in the paddock and around the track too.
03-18-2010, 02:00 PM
#287
You're kidding right?? Or you don't race. 
Lipos and Brushless motors are FAR less expensive to run with over time!! Brushed motors require comm truers--magnet rezapping and replacing brush's.
Nicads require SEVERAL sets because you can't recharge them on the same day. Requires a huge investment to practice--then race!!
For just two cars--you'd need 10 sets of batteries!!! One to practice with--3 qualfiers and a main. And don't even think if something goes wrong and you have to run another time--where does that set come from?
Lipos can be recharged several times. I've get exactly two per car--sometimes only ONE!! And they get charged multiple times during a race day. Run them in practice--recharge--run in qualifiers--recharge--run the main!!
Hand out motors could work again--- and in fact-- is done in some forms of racing. You could also use brushless motors for hand-outs. And use simple ESC's without computer advanced timing etc.
It doesn't take a HUGE change---just keep entry level racing available for the non-sponsored guys. If you want to move UP into an open class--that is easy!! Anyone can run in the open/modified class's as long as they can drive and don't create a hazard.
It's the NEW and NOVICE racer that needs to have a better entry level playing field-- and the guy that truly races for FUN and not winning every time out. Budget racing can and does work on many levels. Just ask the SCCA or VARA real car racers. They have a lot of fun--without having to race Nascar or Formula one!
If you don't like it---don't try it!!
FWIW
Tim
Lipos and Brushless motors are FAR less expensive to run with over time!! Brushed motors require comm truers--magnet rezapping and replacing brush's.
Nicads require SEVERAL sets because you can't recharge them on the same day. Requires a huge investment to practice--then race!!
For just two cars--you'd need 10 sets of batteries!!! One to practice with--3 qualfiers and a main. And don't even think if something goes wrong and you have to run another time--where does that set come from?
Lipos can be recharged several times. I've get exactly two per car--sometimes only ONE!! And they get charged multiple times during a race day. Run them in practice--recharge--run in qualifiers--recharge--run the main!!
Hand out motors could work again--- and in fact-- is done in some forms of racing. You could also use brushless motors for hand-outs. And use simple ESC's without computer advanced timing etc.
It doesn't take a HUGE change---just keep entry level racing available for the non-sponsored guys. If you want to move UP into an open class--that is easy!! Anyone can run in the open/modified class's as long as they can drive and don't create a hazard.
It's the NEW and NOVICE racer that needs to have a better entry level playing field-- and the guy that truly races for FUN and not winning every time out. Budget racing can and does work on many levels. Just ask the SCCA or VARA real car racers. They have a lot of fun--without having to race Nascar or Formula one!
If you don't like it---don't try it!!
FWIW
Tim
3700 NiMh made by GP(Gold Peak) can be fast charged and and discharged in between heats. All you need is a fan to cool it off before charging.
Since when is BL cheap? Average cost of a BL motor is about $80 - $90. Average cost of brushed is about $30 and the motors would not be maintained by the racer because that will be done by the race organizer because it is handout only. This would prevent anyone from having a tricked motor.
Since when is Lipo cheap? Average price of a Lipo pack is about $70 - $100. NiMh stick packs at the local hobby store is about $30 - $40.
Also, BL ESCs are at least $120 or more. While brushed ESCs can be had for less than $100 if not $50.
Obviously you haven't been shopping around. Otherwise you would have known better not to shop at Ultimate Hobbies in the first place.
03-18-2010, 02:04 PM
#288
why new esc's are faster
Timing advanced esc's are faster because you can have the power and speed of the next faster motor, on almost the whole track. In a 17.5, using the tekin rs, you gear down 6 + fdr to you give yourself a lot of torque for acceleration. Once the timing kicks in (you don't need a straight for it to kick in, you can set it to kick in at 4k rpm, which is very usable on the infield,) you have the top end. Turbo kicks in after the timing advance is done (2nd half of the straight.)
The simplest way to explain a tekin rs vs a gtb when both are running 17.5 motors, is that the 17.5 hooked to the tekin acts almost like a 13.5, that is a huge advantage, and the reason why if you want to be competitive, and don't have a boosting esc, just go home.
The problem in r/c onroad is no-one can leave it alone. Everyone is always looking for an edge, and the arms race keeps escalating. If you want to have true spec racing, you have to limit the
1) chassis
2) esc
3) motor
4) battery
5) body
6) tires
That is true spec racing. If you try to limit anything, racers always complain, and therein lies the issue.
In my opinion, the ideal solution for vta is to spec everything. Starting in 9/10, they spec everything but the chassis. That would be a great next step.
It really comes down to whether racers want to always look for an edge, or simply have fun racing. The results from both schools of thought are clear.
And by the way, having 1 lipo is better than having 4 nimh. The way to make on-road popular is not to bring back old technology, but to limit the best of the new technology. Comparing nimh to lipo is like comparing tube tv to flat panel lcd's, which one do you prefer?
The simplest way to explain a tekin rs vs a gtb when both are running 17.5 motors, is that the 17.5 hooked to the tekin acts almost like a 13.5, that is a huge advantage, and the reason why if you want to be competitive, and don't have a boosting esc, just go home.
The problem in r/c onroad is no-one can leave it alone. Everyone is always looking for an edge, and the arms race keeps escalating. If you want to have true spec racing, you have to limit the
1) chassis
2) esc
3) motor
4) battery
5) body
6) tires
That is true spec racing. If you try to limit anything, racers always complain, and therein lies the issue.
In my opinion, the ideal solution for vta is to spec everything. Starting in 9/10, they spec everything but the chassis. That would be a great next step.
It really comes down to whether racers want to always look for an edge, or simply have fun racing. The results from both schools of thought are clear.
And by the way, having 1 lipo is better than having 4 nimh. The way to make on-road popular is not to bring back old technology, but to limit the best of the new technology. Comparing nimh to lipo is like comparing tube tv to flat panel lcd's, which one do you prefer?
03-18-2010, 02:09 PM
#289
brushed stock motors do not have adjustable timing. Why do these bl motors have adjustable timing? Spec classes should be raced with fixed timing & the same timing for all motors. Require racers to run w/ fixed timing & let judges spec any esc that looks fishy.
03-18-2010, 02:34 PM
#290
I had to think about it but really, somebody fell asleep at the gate and allowed all this "adjustable timing" stuff walk in as "spec" class.
So far there has never been a set standard for "stock" when talking about BL motors. First it was 13.5, then it was 17.5 and now some say it should be 21.5.
And at the same time they all have adjustable timing. How did that happen?In the past, stock was about motor, battery and ESC with no adjustments other than initial set-up. Nowadays with all the different options in adjustments its no wonder why newcomers/ beginners get scared away. Its just too damn complicated!
03-18-2010, 02:43 PM
#291
Tech Adept
iTrader: (1)
This year there's an actual Historic Trans Am race at NJMP, but unfortunately on Mother's Day. Ray is holding an SJCCR VTA event along with it, but some of us with moms won't make it.
I can vouch for the fact that it's a great venue to show off RC cars. Even a lot of 1:1 racers are fascinated. Basically, any public event that draws a crowd is a good place to hold an RC race.
03-18-2010, 02:44 PM
#292
Let's think back to "stock" racing. Motor builders tweaked every last bit of power out of a motor. Batteries required LOTS of care and didn't last nearly as long as lipos. Let's also not forget the charger wars. Higher amp charging, step charging, single-cell chargers. The list goes on and on. The problem now is that we continue to call it "stock" when, as everyone has already pointed out, there is NO stock class. 17.5 is a class, Mod is a class, 13.5 may be a class, STOCK does not exist. We have alot of new guys at the track and they are all very excited about how fast they went this week compared to last week. I spend most of my race day teaching someone how to work on their car or giving out setup advice. I don't see anyone quitting because they have to race with the fast guys. Our qualifying is broken up based on skill level and obviously the mains are as well. If we want to kick all of the fast guys out of "stock" then why don't we just sell raffle tickets at the door and draw for TQ and win. Then everybody has an equal chance. Otherwise, someone will always have more talent, someone will have more chances to practice, someone will have more money.... the list goes on. This is racing. This is not needle point.
Higher amp charging, step charging, single-cell chargers. The list goes on and on. The problem now is that we continue to call it "stock" when, as everyone has already pointed out, there is NO stock class. 17.5 is a class, Mod is a class, 13.5 may be a class, STOCK does not exist. We have alot of new guys at the track and they are all very excited about how fast they went this week compared to last week. I spend most of my race day teaching someone how to work on their car or giving out setup advice. I don't see anyone quitting because they have to race with the fast guys. Our qualifying is broken up based on skill level and obviously the mains are as well. If we want to kick all of the fast guys out of "stock" then why don't we just sell raffle tickets at the door and draw for TQ and win. Then everybody has an equal chance. Otherwise, someone will always have more talent, someone will have more chances to practice, someone will have more money.... the list goes on. This is racing. This is not needle point.
03-18-2010, 02:56 PM
#293
simple.
Race track buys RTRs, charges it for racers, and then safe keep it. The only time the car is in the racers hands is when they are racing. All repairs/modifications will be performed by race officials. Racers are not allowed turn one screw on the cars let alone touch it.
Race track buys RTRs, charges it for racers, and then safe keep it. The only time the car is in the racers hands is when they are racing. All repairs/modifications will be performed by race officials. Racers are not allowed turn one screw on the cars let alone touch it.
03-18-2010, 02:59 PM
#294
Let's think back to "stock" racing. Motor builders tweaked every last bit of power out of a motor. Batteries required LOTS of care and didn't last nearly as long as lipos. Let's also not forget the charger wars. Higher amp charging, step charging, single-cell chargers. The list goes on and on. The problem now is that we continue to call it "stock" when, as everyone has already pointed out, there is NO stock class. 17.5 is a class, Mod is a class, 13.5 may be a class, STOCK does not exist. We have alot of new guys at the track and they are all very excited about how fast they went this week compared to last week. I spend most of my race day teaching someone how to work on their car or giving out setup advice. I don't see anyone quitting because they have to race with the fast guys. Our qualifying is broken up based on skill level and obviously the mains are as well. If we want to kick all of the fast guys out of "stock" then why don't we just sell raffle tickets at the door and draw for TQ and win. Then everybody has an equal chance. Otherwise, someone will always have more talent, someone will have more chances to practice, someone will have more money.... the list goes on. This is racing. This is not needle point.
Higher amp charging, step charging, single-cell chargers. The list goes on and on. The problem now is that we continue to call it "stock" when, as everyone has already pointed out, there is NO stock class. 17.5 is a class, Mod is a class, 13.5 may be a class, STOCK does not exist. We have alot of new guys at the track and they are all very excited about how fast they went this week compared to last week. I spend most of my race day teaching someone how to work on their car or giving out setup advice. I don't see anyone quitting because they have to race with the fast guys. Our qualifying is broken up based on skill level and obviously the mains are as well. If we want to kick all of the fast guys out of "stock" then why don't we just sell raffle tickets at the door and draw for TQ and win. Then everybody has an equal chance. Otherwise, someone will always have more talent, someone will have more chances to practice, someone will have more money.... the list goes on. This is racing. This is not needle point.In that case have everyone run in one class and then adjust the heats based on qualifying times. Then its just about skill and not what you have or what you have is called.
A fast guy with 17.5 can run with a slow guy with 13.5 and so on.
03-18-2010, 03:49 PM
#295
Tech Master
I have to agree with you there. Thats why I prefer to race nitro. More track time and longer runs(mains). There you only have sportsman or expert. There is no such thing as stock or mod.
In that case have everyone run in one class and then adjust the heats based on qualifying times. Then its just about skill and not what you have or what you have is called. A fast guy with 17.5 can run with a slow guy with 13.5 and so on.
In that case have everyone run in one class and then adjust the heats based on qualifying times. Then its just about skill and not what you have or what you have is called.
A fast guy with 17.5 can run with a slow guy with 13.5 and so on.
03-18-2010, 04:08 PM
#296
Someone once suggested that the heats should be extended to 7 or 8min so that people would have to set up their car for run time such that they don't take all that power and "blitz" it in 5 min. 1/12th is like this and I've seen where a lot can happen in 8min. time. Racing should be about endurance. Right now its more like a 5min drag race.
03-18-2010, 05:22 PM
#297
Fast engines or not, you can only drive to the best of your ability. I've had many drivers either over power the turns or wear out their tires pre-maturely only for me to pass them by at a more controlled pace. Also the "tweaked" motors often flame out with minutes left in the main. I think that is the problem with electric because 5 min is too short.
Someone once suggested that the heats should be extended to 7 or 8min so that people would have to set up their car for run time such that they don't take all that power and "blitz" it in 5 min. 1/12th is like this and I've seen where a lot can happen in 8min. time. Racing should be about endurance. Right now its more like a 5min drag race.
Someone once suggested that the heats should be extended to 7 or 8min so that people would have to set up their car for run time such that they don't take all that power and "blitz" it in 5 min. 1/12th is like this and I've seen where a lot can happen in 8min. time. Racing should be about endurance. Right now its more like a 5min drag race.
03-18-2010, 08:56 PM
#298
Try that with a 2400 pack and let me know how it works out. Problem is we just have too much power available, if we had to do power management as well as race I think things would change a lot. The speed controls timing wouldn't matter, motor timing wouldn't matter, get it back to gearing and power management, of course you'd want to make sure the Lipo cutoff is working properly.
03-20-2010, 02:32 PM
#299
"HPI is well distributed so racers do not have to struggle to buy from limited sources and outlets. That problem is typical with Tamiya"
Out of the three Japanese makers, I find Tamiya much better organised as far as distribution and stock availabilty, far better than HPI or Kyosho.
LHS have a prefernce to stock HPI versus Tamiya / Kyosho because of a lower price point, that doesnt make them better distributed. In the end I do think that it all depends as to where you're located. Lhs in Los Angeles area stock traxxas, xtm... In these times even HPI's price point is too high for them.
I personally dont allow an lhs to dictate the brand. Your sig has Kamikaze toys.. He used to stock Kyosho, serpent , hpi, and now he's shifted to mugen and Ofna.. That's his choice and my choice will be to shop elsewhere.
I learned long ago to rely on tower, horizon, amain, ashfordhobby for my needs. And as a last resort will order direct from tamiya, hpi or Kyosho.
Out of the three Japanese makers, I find Tamiya much better organised as far as distribution and stock availabilty, far better than HPI or Kyosho.
LHS have a prefernce to stock HPI versus Tamiya / Kyosho because of a lower price point, that doesnt make them better distributed. In the end I do think that it all depends as to where you're located. Lhs in Los Angeles area stock traxxas, xtm... In these times even HPI's price point is too high for them.
I personally dont allow an lhs to dictate the brand. Your sig has Kamikaze toys.. He used to stock Kyosho, serpent , hpi, and now he's shifted to mugen and Ofna.. That's his choice and my choice will be to shop elsewhere.
I learned long ago to rely on tower, horizon, amain, ashfordhobby for my needs. And as a last resort will order direct from tamiya, hpi or Kyosho.
03-20-2010, 07:51 PM
#300
"HPI is well distributed so racers do not have to struggle to buy from limited sources and outlets. That problem is typical with Tamiya"
Out of the three Japanese makers, I find Tamiya much better organised as far as distribution and stock availabilty, far better than HPI or Kyosho.
LHS have a prefernce to stock HPI versus Tamiya / Kyosho because of a lower price point, that doesnt make them better distributed. In the end I do think that it all depends as to where you're located. Lhs in Los Angeles area stock traxxas, xtm... In these times even HPI's price point is too high for them.
I personally dont allow an lhs to dictate the brand. Your sig has Kamikaze toys.. He used to stock Kyosho, serpent , hpi, and now he's shifted to mugen and Ofna.. That's his choice and my choice will be to shop elsewhere.
I learned long ago to rely on tower, horizon, amain, ashfordhobby for my needs. And as a last resort will order direct from tamiya, hpi or Kyosho.
Out of the three Japanese makers, I find Tamiya much better organised as far as distribution and stock availabilty, far better than HPI or Kyosho.
LHS have a prefernce to stock HPI versus Tamiya / Kyosho because of a lower price point, that doesnt make them better distributed. In the end I do think that it all depends as to where you're located. Lhs in Los Angeles area stock traxxas, xtm... In these times even HPI's price point is too high for them.
I personally dont allow an lhs to dictate the brand. Your sig has Kamikaze toys.. He used to stock Kyosho, serpent , hpi, and now he's shifted to mugen and Ofna.. That's his choice and my choice will be to shop elsewhere.
I learned long ago to rely on tower, horizon, amain, ashfordhobby for my needs. And as a last resort will order direct from tamiya, hpi or Kyosho.
As for Kamikaze, you obviously don't know what you're talking about! I get all my Serpent parts from Sam and he's the best source for Kyosho as well. The place that stocks mostly Mugen and OFNA is Nitrohouse. Get your facts straight before you mouth off like a total idiot.