Ernest Provetti Open letter to RC Industry
01-23-2010, 05:58 PM
#226
And a massive series for low buck cars is a fail. Sounds great until you realize that you sold $50 cars to guys that couldn't swing a $100 car and now you want them to attend a massive event they need to fly to and take a week off of work for. This is why Ralph Burch took Ernies money at the Street Spec nationals the one time they tried... The guys that series appealed to... they couldn't afford to go. Quite a catch 22.
01-23-2010, 09:53 PM
#227
Today I was at the track, and a national level A main regular told me the new esc he got made the car "too fast" in 13.5. That should tell you something right there.
In a perfect world, there would be an old timer looking over the shoulder of every new/sportsman type racer with words of advice, but that's just not the case. We need to accept the reality that there is such a thing as too fast, and when there are other cars on the track, making your car slower can be just as bad as being out of control.
01-23-2010, 10:34 PM
#228
uumm... if hes a "national a main regular" why is he running 13.5, don't answer, i was just messing around killing time till the commercial is over
01-23-2010, 10:48 PM
#229
Funny that you post. I deleted my last line before posted
"Where are you WildCherry?"
You and I had a go at it on the Slash thread. You were all over the Slash because it's Traxxas and it's for bashers not 'real' racers.
On road needs something similar to SCT RTR rules. Cheap, slow and fun.
"Where are you WildCherry?"
You and I had a go at it on the Slash thread. You were all over the Slash because it's Traxxas and it's for bashers not 'real' racers.
On road needs something similar to SCT RTR rules. Cheap, slow and fun.
01-23-2010, 11:36 PM
#230
I had to read your post twice....finally got to the part I was looking for
!!! Your last line says......the guys that this series appealed to ......couldn't afford to go......well a couple thoughts on that.....I think a series such as this would appeal to alot of racers....not only the guys that can/can't afford to attend....the guys tired of spending countless dollars on trying to keep up with technology....or someone elses purse strings
!!! The guys that have been around for a long time....looking for a section of our loved hobby where dad's...grandfathers....kids.....could all hang out.....race....and have fun together!!!
I don't know all the US players that put together the USVTA series....brilliant....I thought....the cars....the control....I only questioned the allowable chassis to begin with.....I felt there would be some advantage to brand new $$$$ cars!!! Now I see the entire Turbo/Boost wars have started to infiltrate some of the RCTECH chat on the USVTA threads!!! I hope whomever decides on the USVTA rules.....tightens the reigns even more.....this is as close to a viable SPEC class as we have.....if only it would have taken off in Canada
!!!
After meeting you(Bob) in Lethbridge.....several others....and myself all talked about what a great attitude you have towards this hobby....a real torch bearer....ok not the olympic torch.....for having FUN!!!! It was very refreshing!!!!
Someone else posted a while back that instead of talking about changes....we should make them!!! Maybe we should post what our dream series would look like.....if enough of the guys like an idea or the other....we can start something new???
Simple and strong touring car: Cyclone S (Stock)(Set Spur/Pinion)(Brushless motor/ Speedo Combo...25 turn or so)(Spec tire...inexpensive)(Huge capacity Lipo....20C....for 15-20 minute races)(Body style...a group of allowable bodies...VTA....GT....Touring??)(Spec Servo too)
Just my thoughts,
R
!!! Your last line says......the guys that this series appealed to ......couldn't afford to go......well a couple thoughts on that.....I think a series such as this would appeal to alot of racers....not only the guys that can/can't afford to attend....the guys tired of spending countless dollars on trying to keep up with technology....or someone elses purse strings!!! The guys that have been around for a long time....looking for a section of our loved hobby where dad's...grandfathers....kids.....could all hang out.....race....and have fun together!!! I don't know all the US players that put together the USVTA series....brilliant....I thought....the cars....the control....I only questioned the allowable chassis to begin with.....I felt there would be some advantage to brand new $$$$ cars!!! Now I see the entire Turbo/Boost wars have started to infiltrate some of the RCTECH chat on the USVTA threads!!! I hope whomever decides on the USVTA rules.....tightens the reigns even more.....this is as close to a viable SPEC class as we have.....if only it would have taken off in Canada
!!!After meeting you(Bob) in Lethbridge.....several others....and myself all talked about what a great attitude you have towards this hobby....a real torch bearer....ok not the olympic torch
.....for having FUN!!!! It was very refreshing!!!!Someone else posted a while back that instead of talking about changes....we should make them!!! Maybe we should post what our dream series would look like.....if enough of the guys like an idea or the other....we can start something new???
Simple and strong touring car: Cyclone S (Stock)(Set Spur/Pinion)(Brushless motor/ Speedo Combo...25 turn or so)(Spec tire...inexpensive)(Huge capacity Lipo....20C....for 15-20 minute races)(Body style...a group of allowable bodies...VTA....GT....Touring??)(Spec Servo too)
Just my thoughts,
R
I know it was a rhetorical statement but I'm gonna post on it anyway.
I've done it several times in various capacities. I've done more silver can 1/12th scale testing than anybody else I'm aware of. and when my kids were young, I spent a lot of time with the motor guys making what I called "dad motors", which were very high efficiency low rpm motors, which we marketed. Then when brushes got better and cans better about 5 years ago, I revisited the idea and we developed a series of motors in the 25 - 32 turn range. They take some of the Smash out of the learning curve, making it easier on Dad. I was looking, we still have some of those in stock... not big sellers. But a Godsend for those that understood it. More power than a silver can with better efficiency for longer racing. (which is what noobs need, track time).
At one of my son's first offroad races (he was 8-10?), I set him up with a good high efficiency setup, ran for about 35 minutes... I remember this guy came up on the driver stand and asked if we were on channel 64, I said yea, he said "I'll wait", I replied with "Yea, and for a long time, he's got 1/2 hour left on this pack"...lol...
We raced those high efficiency motors (before there was brushless racing) and as recently as on 3800's and 4200's and we were running 15 minute qualifiers and 20 minute mains in 1/12th scale at standard 27t brushed speeds for 15 minutes and slightly slower for 20. I think one of the motors we had over 15 hours of track time... never cut the comm or replaced the brushes, still runs and dynos fine. and it PAINS me to travel to an event and get a few minutes of track time and take 1900mAh out of a 5200mah pack... WHY-O-WHY aren't we giving people what they really need, TRACK TIME! (we don't need to debate it here, I've been carrying that torch for years, there are other threads)
We've had our own cars (all done in Solidworks by myself), and I did a lot of testing on a car we were going to market for spec racing.
I am keenly aware of the new guys and how to slow cars down. More than most. And it's not something I farmed out for somebody to develop or test. I did every last part, built the cars tested, tried classes locally, etc.
And a massive series for low buck cars is a fail. Sounds great until you realize that you sold $50 cars to guys that couldn't swing a $100 car and now you want them to attend a massive event they need to fly to and take a week off of work for. This is why Ralph Burch took Ernies money at the Street Spec nationals the one time they tried... The guys that series appealed to... they couldn't afford to go. Quite a catch 22.
I've done it several times in various capacities. I've done more silver can 1/12th scale testing than anybody else I'm aware of. and when my kids were young, I spent a lot of time with the motor guys making what I called "dad motors", which were very high efficiency low rpm motors, which we marketed. Then when brushes got better and cans better about 5 years ago, I revisited the idea and we developed a series of motors in the 25 - 32 turn range. They take some of the Smash out of the learning curve, making it easier on Dad. I was looking, we still have some of those in stock... not big sellers. But a Godsend for those that understood it. More power than a silver can with better efficiency for longer racing. (which is what noobs need, track time).
At one of my son's first offroad races (he was 8-10?), I set him up with a good high efficiency setup, ran for about 35 minutes... I remember this guy came up on the driver stand and asked if we were on channel 64, I said yea, he said "I'll wait", I replied with "Yea, and for a long time, he's got 1/2 hour left on this pack"...lol...
We raced those high efficiency motors (before there was brushless racing) and as recently as on 3800's and 4200's and we were running 15 minute qualifiers and 20 minute mains in 1/12th scale at standard 27t brushed speeds for 15 minutes and slightly slower for 20. I think one of the motors we had over 15 hours of track time... never cut the comm or replaced the brushes, still runs and dynos fine. and it PAINS me to travel to an event and get a few minutes of track time and take 1900mAh out of a 5200mah pack... WHY-O-WHY aren't we giving people what they really need, TRACK TIME! (we don't need to debate it here, I've been carrying that torch for years, there are other threads)
We've had our own cars (all done in Solidworks by myself), and I did a lot of testing on a car we were going to market for spec racing.
I am keenly aware of the new guys and how to slow cars down. More than most. And it's not something I farmed out for somebody to develop or test. I did every last part, built the cars tested, tried classes locally, etc.
And a massive series for low buck cars is a fail. Sounds great until you realize that you sold $50 cars to guys that couldn't swing a $100 car and now you want them to attend a massive event they need to fly to and take a week off of work for. This is why Ralph Burch took Ernies money at the Street Spec nationals the one time they tried... The guys that series appealed to... they couldn't afford to go. Quite a catch 22.
01-24-2010, 06:48 AM
#231
That's great but there are plenty of people who come into racing facilities and leave because they are intimidated by the speed. They say "I could never do that" and leave. Not to mention those guys who destroy their stuff because it's going too fast, or they are getting run over by faster drivers.
Today I was at the track, and a national level A main regular told me the new esc he got made the car "too fast" in 13.5. That should tell you something right there.
In a perfect world, there would be an old timer looking over the shoulder of every new/sportsman type racer with words of advice, but that's just not the case. We need to accept the reality that there is such a thing as too fast, and when there are other cars on the track, making your car slower can be just as bad as being out of control.
Today I was at the track, and a national level A main regular told me the new esc he got made the car "too fast" in 13.5. That should tell you something right there.
In a perfect world, there would be an old timer looking over the shoulder of every new/sportsman type racer with words of advice, but that's just not the case. We need to accept the reality that there is such a thing as too fast, and when there are other cars on the track, making your car slower can be just as bad as being out of control.
Oh and 13.5 was the fastest class at the race.
01-24-2010, 07:13 AM
#232
.......as technology is typically chased , kinda like Five(5) or so years back with brushed motor(s) technology and the battery wars, on the club racers level , the fast guys ,the week end warrior racer , the young driver whom was lucky enough to get an 'rtr' ,......the window - of - opportunity to go faster is within our grasp. Getting a handle on the fast lap takes practice , so I do understand that which may be too fast. I guess my point is the speed takes time;[ money ,patience , some more $ to replace a burned-up motor, etc.]. Take note, I've yet to put in a brushless motor/speedo to run my pancar, but this next level transition seemes to have come to the mile marker(due to the indoor season/big races,nationals,regionals,etc.) Guys (and ladies) , please try to be patient , things will work themselves out even as we speak.
01-24-2010, 10:46 AM
#234
...ever walk into an office and interrupt somebody that's typing and they look at you, answer your question while they are still typing, they don't stop, and they're answering your question while still typing without looking... I'm that guy. I do slow down when doing it though, I think I'm out of mental ram.
Hopefully you get the obscure sci-fi reference.Your posts are always informative. You've been in the hobby longer than I have. You remember when RC racing was clubs only. At one point you only had one 1/12 scale car and were happy you got to race it every other weekend with the club. And you have seen, from the racer end and now from the business end, what the hobby has evolved into.
I think we all agree that something is wrong. But we disagree on how to fix it. Everyone is in this hobby for a different reason, and there's no one answer that will suit everyone.
Somebody asked who is going to stand up and do something. ROAR stood up and made what was stock into a sportsman only class. What was the response? 10 pages of complaints about not being able to run a decal!
You stand up for something in this hobby, and you get eaten alive.
01-25-2010, 10:27 AM
#235
Stormer is making too much sense. Ban him.
01-25-2010, 12:04 PM
#237
Think of the time I'd save.
Keep it fun, and the noobs will stick around. The speed gets them in. It's then a combination of their common sense to realize they need a pinion change, and those around them to offer up ideas (if it's appropriate). In Golf, you don't pull the driver out on every shot. Most noob RC racers get that analogy. It's about course management.
$5 pinion change makes any car more drivable. You don't have to put bigger pinions on... they make smaller ones. I like this pinion reply... I'm gonna fly that flag for a while.
Keep it fun, and the noobs will stick around. The speed gets them in. It's then a combination of their common sense to realize they need a pinion change, and those around them to offer up ideas (if it's appropriate). In Golf, you don't pull the driver out on every shot. Most noob RC racers get that analogy. It's about course management.
$5 pinion change makes any car more drivable. You don't have to put bigger pinions on... they make smaller ones.
I like this pinion reply... I'm gonna fly that flag for a while.
01-25-2010, 01:19 PM
#238
Tech Master
Thinking about it, the best way to have a control class is to have battery limits. In NZ we still have 1300SCR's for our stock silver can touring class. The cars are pretty fast, but gearing is ALWAYS limited by what you can get out of the batteries.
It's another can of worms, but if there was a ROAR list of batteries with say a 2500 or 3700 maximum capacity, crazy motor timing and wide open gearing would be out the window.
And the "new battery war" arguement is invalid here, as the battery war is already being waged in every class....
It's another can of worms, but if there was a ROAR list of batteries with say a 2500 or 3700 maximum capacity, crazy motor timing and wide open gearing would be out the window.
And the "new battery war" arguement is invalid here, as the battery war is already being waged in every class....
01-25-2010, 01:32 PM
#239
Is it "really" a war if you have 2 times more capacity than you can use? and you can buy a pack and leave in in your car for $60 bux?
Never been a better time to be a noob racer. You don't need to work on your motors, you'll have all the power you need... Don't need to match batterys all week, one pack will probably do you... We got rid of most foam touring classes, so those rubber tires save time and setup headaches (although I enjoyed foam touring). We make it much easier the rest of us are gonna quit. A hobby is supposed to fill your time and be a challenge. Most hobby like thing I get out of it anymore is mounting a body....
Be careful what we all ask for. Just like Brushless and LiPo, it changes other things long term for what was a short term idea.
and other "hobbys" want our noobs. Keep the noobs happy and having fun. just that simple.
01-25-2010, 01:35 PM
#240
Thinking about it, the best way to have a control class is to have battery limits. In NZ we still have 1300SCR's for our stock silver can touring class. The cars are pretty fast, but gearing is ALWAYS limited by what you can get out of the batteries.
It's another can of worms, but if there was a ROAR list of batteries with say a 2500 or 3700 maximum capacity, crazy motor timing and wide open gearing would be out the window.
And the "new battery war" arguement is invalid here, as the battery war is already being waged in every class....
It's another can of worms, but if there was a ROAR list of batteries with say a 2500 or 3700 maximum capacity, crazy motor timing and wide open gearing would be out the window.
And the "new battery war" arguement is invalid here, as the battery war is already being waged in every class....