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Old 02-06-2014, 06:37 AM   #2641
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Paul,

I am helping my son run 17.5 TC at the Nats this year. Mostly for the experience. We have no illusions of glory, but I really want him to have a good experience. We typically run USVTA and USGT with our Xray 3r's.

They were going to run VTA as the "extra" class but that changed.

So he is going to have to "man up" and run with the really fast guys in TC.

I have a 3r that has the CF lower chassis plate from the early 3. We ran it last night and it wasn't too bad. Only change we made from VTA was took 1/2 pound of lead off , reset drop, ride height, etc, and put a spool in the front. We have the extra braces on it already as well. It was OK for club level, but I'm guessing when the traction comes up at Nats it won't be where he needs it.

I have a gear diff, swaybar kits, and ECS front shafts on the way. When comparing setups to the newer chassis, how close should we be? I am assuming the main difference from the newer cars are CG height and the front steering linkage ? If we work off of newer T4 setups (as close as I can) should that be a good ballpark?

He is giving up 1/2 second with his line, I'm not worried about being ultra competitive. Since we have never ran TC on a high traction track I don't want him to end up with something that isn't drivable.

He would love a new T4, but I'm spending too much on my own race program ATM!

Thanks for ANY advice you can offer us. We have a pretty good handle on "club" racing and hope we can translate that into a good experience at Nats!

Thanks for bearing with the long story! Look forward to meeting you!
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Old 02-06-2014, 01:20 PM   #2642
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At the Birds with Paul

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Cool, did you have the cam on your head?
Your car looked good, btw congrats with your SnB. win.
Xray did wel this weekend.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:28 PM   #2643
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Paul taking the win @ the Birds in TC Mod

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Old 02-07-2014, 10:21 AM   #2644
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Originally Posted by jasons56 View Post
Paul,

I am helping my son run 17.5 TC at the Nats this year. Mostly for the experience. We have no illusions of glory, but I really want him to have a good experience. We typically run USVTA and USGT with our Xray 3r's.

They were going to run VTA as the "extra" class but that changed.

So he is going to have to "man up" and run with the really fast guys in TC.

I have a 3r that has the CF lower chassis plate from the early 3. We ran it last night and it wasn't too bad. Only change we made from VTA was took 1/2 pound of lead off , reset drop, ride height, etc, and put a spool in the front. We have the extra braces on it already as well. It was OK for club level, but I'm guessing when the traction comes up at Nats it won't be where he needs it.

I have a gear diff, swaybar kits, and ECS front shafts on the way. When comparing setups to the newer chassis, how close should we be? I am assuming the main difference from the newer cars are CG height and the front steering linkage ? If we work off of newer T4 setups (as close as I can) should that be a good ballpark?

He is giving up 1/2 second with his line, I'm not worried about being ultra competitive. Since we have never ran TC on a high traction track I don't want him to end up with something that isn't drivable.

He would love a new T4, but I'm spending too much on my own race program ATM!

Thanks for ANY advice you can offer us. We have a pretty good handle on "club" racing and hope we can translate that into a good experience at Nats!

Thanks for bearing with the long story! Look forward to meeting you!
Hi. Cool! Im sure you guys will have a great time!
My main advice on the car is just to go threw it and show up with it well prepared, with any basic carpet set up on it. Since i haven't run that car in a long time i don't really have a set up for you. we can work on it at the race once we get to see the car run. Same basic rules will apply so im sure we can get it to drive well for him!

See ya
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:33 AM   #2645
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Paul, were you running soft/soft in 1/12 or something else?

The super soft/soft combo worked well on my track. I just didn't have my diff set or built correctly and it was acting weird. But grip was great.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:58 PM   #2646
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Hi. Cool! Im sure you guys will have a great time!
.... Same basic rules will apply so im sure we can get it to drive well for him!

See ya
Thanks so much!
We've got a pretty good handle on club level setups, but the few times I've experienced big event traction it was like I have never setup a car before.

I am hoping our "warmup" this Sunday gets me partway there!

We got to run the IIC layout on the IIC carpet a few weeks after and the traction was the best I've seen in years. I can't imagine what it was like in Vegas!
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:16 AM   #2647
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Originally Posted by ToysRUsKid View Post
I picked up a new 17.5 TP and added a the green rotor for 12th scale. Got a good "starting point" on gearing? I usually run a 42.5mm rear tire to start the day.

Since Paul declined, let me give you a place to start. Set timing at 40 degrees and roll it out at 3.5 inches. You are pretty smart so I think you can convert to mm. I also think you are running on a longer track than I am and I used 3.3. to 3.4 inches at home. Don't worry if it makes a noise at low RPM when it is pulling from a corner. Just monitor how fast it accelerates.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Paul. Just trying to help after you helped me.
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Old 02-09-2014, 07:07 PM   #2648
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Originally Posted by Paul L View Post
Hi. Cool! Im sure you guys will have a great time!
My main advice on the car is just to go threw it and show up with it well prepared, with any basic carpet set up on it. Since i haven't run that car in a long time i don't really have a set up for you. we can work on it at the race once we get to see the car run. Same basic rules will apply so im sure we can get it to drive well for him!

See ya
He had a blast at the warmup today! We got his car working well enough he started driving it hard and broke a few things.

It was tending towards tight in, loose off all day. I increased rear camber and put in more rear droop and it helped, but it was still more loose off corners than the other cars appeared. We have never ran 17.5 touring before. Can you overdrive a 17.5 car off corner or should you be able to peg it once it rotates?

I've ran into situations offroad with a tight in, loose off car where increasing turn in and front grip actually helped tighten the car up off corner. Have you ever seen this in a touring car?

One of the fast locals recommending anti squat in the front to flatten the car under power. But the way he described the setting it sounded like pro squat... Your thoughts?

We are running a spool In front with ball dif in back.

If you had one gear dif, would you put it in the front or rear?

Hopefully by next year we will have a current car so setup sheets can get us closer!

Thanks for any help! Its really challenging for us to tune for high grip as our track looses grip so fast after a race. Practice days are few and far between.
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Last edited by jasons56; 02-09-2014 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:37 PM   #2649
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Hi Paul, what gear ratio are you using for the 4.5T V10 HW motor?
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Old 02-10-2014, 01:44 AM   #2650
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Hi Paul, what gear ratio are you using for the 4.5T V10 HW motor?

Paul does not use hw v10 but thunder power z3r 4.5t gear ratio 8.3


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Old 02-10-2014, 06:02 AM   #2651
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I know tires have alot to do with 1/12 racing. In your opinion, if my car starts off a little twitchy in the beginning of the run, but has a pretty bad push on initial turn in in the last minute and 1/2, what would be your fix for this? Atm using magenta fronts and pink rears. The car was .1 off the fastest lap of the day so im sure it had to do with tires. Thanks in advance
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:40 AM   #2652
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Originally Posted by PROMODVETTE View Post
Paul, were you running soft/soft in 1/12 or something else?


The super soft/soft combo worked well on my track. I just didn't have my diff set or built correctly and it was acting weird. But grip was great.
Hi, I used super soft rear and med front at the birds. The normal set up for mod is s/s though. Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasons56 View Post
Thanks so much!
We've got a pretty good handle on club level setups, but the few times I've experienced big event traction it was like I have never setup a car before.

I am hoping our "warmup" this Sunday gets me partway there!

We got to run the IIC layout on the IIC carpet a few weeks after and the traction was the best I've seen in years. I can't imagine what it was like in Vegas!
Yea. High bite can throw a curve ball at you for sure. well get you pointed in the right direction .

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidl View Post
Since Paul declined, let me give you a place to start. Set timing at 40 degrees and roll it out at 3.5 inches. You are pretty smart so I think you can convert to mm. I also think you are running on a longer track than I am and I used 3.3. to 3.4 inches at home. Don't worry if it makes a noise at low RPM when it is pulling from a corner. Just monitor how fast it accelerates.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Paul. Just trying to help after you helped me.
Thanks!!

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Originally Posted by jasons56 View Post
He had a blast at the warmup today! We got his car working well enough he started driving it hard and broke a few things.

It was tending towards tight in, loose off all day. I increased rear camber and put in more rear droop and it helped, but it was still more loose off corners than the other cars appeared. We have never ran 17.5 touring before. Can you overdrive a 17.5 car off corner or should you be able to peg it once it rotates?

I've ran into situations offroad with a tight in, loose off car where increasing turn in and front grip actually helped tighten the car up off corner. Have you ever seen this in a touring car?

One of the fast locals recommending anti squat in the front to flatten the car under power. But the way he described the setting it sounded like pro squat... Your thoughts?

We are running a spool In front with ball dif in back.

If you had one gear dif, would you put it in the front or rear?

Hopefully by next year we will have a current car so setup sheets can get us closer!

Thanks for any help! Its really challenging for us to tune for high grip as our track looses grip so fast after a race. Practice days are few and far between.
Hi!. You should be able to get the car very stable on power. things i would try would be, First rebuilding the rear diff or make sure it is perfect and not heating up threw out the run. for me a fresh, proper built rear diff is the biggest thing. if you bring rebuild parts i will show you just how i used to get them perfect. Other than that i would stand up the rear shocks and or try just a hair more toe. Gravity has some .2mm rear toe shims. Ill throw a couple in my box now so you have that fine tuning option at the race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morgoth View Post
Hi Paul, what gear ratio are you using for the 4.5T V10 HW motor?
Yup, as peter says, I use Thunderpower motors and batterys but 8.3 is a great ratio for almost any 4.5t.

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Originally Posted by peter. View Post
Paul does not use hw v10 but thunder power z3r 4.5t gear ratio 8.3

Thanks Peter!

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOE SI View Post
I know tires have alot to do with 1/12 racing. In your opinion, if my car starts off a little twitchy in the beginning of the run, but has a pretty bad push on initial turn in in the last minute and 1/2, what would be your fix for this? Atm using magenta fronts and pink rears. The car was .1 off the fastest lap of the day so im sure it had to do with tires. Thanks in advance
Hi, I would try to go to a softer rear tire then sauce less front tire. The softer rear should wear more and not get as gummy threw the run. then saucing less front should make the car less edgy at the beginning. Hopefully then the car will have a bit less steering at the beginning and a bit more at the end.
Good luck!
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Old 02-10-2014, 07:45 AM   #2653
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Yup, as peter says, I use Thunderpower motors and batterys but 8.3 is a great ratio for almost any 4.5t.
I saw somewhere that you switched to HW, but I didn't know it was only for the speedo. 8.4 is what I'm using at the moment, but I think I need to gear up a little.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:31 PM   #2654
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Thanks Paul.
Would a harder front have the same effect? Instead of a softer rear?
My first time ever driving a 1/12, they're fun
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:48 PM   #2655
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Regarding tight in and loose off... What I've seen quite often on carpet is that with a really pushy car, you can use too much steering throw and force the car to turn, but it's all bound up. Then when you get on the power you've still got the wheels turned too much, the front digs in hard, and the car doesn't want to straighten out, seeming like oversteer. Making the usual changes to tighten up the car then makes it worse. Changing the setup towards more steering can actually solve it.

But of course as Paul mentioned, if your rear diff is bound up, that can make it kick out. Also if the rear belt is too tight relative to the front, that can make the rear kick out when you get on power, too.

-Mike
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