The Case For Spec ESC Profiles
#31
Tech Champion
Well, if the companies are part of the solution, and don't release software designed to cheat, why is it hard? That's the idea of making the ESC's provide a visual indication that they're in spec mode. Tech isn't any harder than looking through the window to make sure the LED's are blinking in the "spec mode" pattern.
#32
Tech Champion
#33
Tech Champion
Well, the current issue is that you have to spend $350-$400 on a new ESC or be .4 off. And that means everybody has to spend that kind of money just to all get back in line right where they were. And it looks like Tekin is about to drop new software to get back in the game, which means if you're using some other ESC, you need to drop $150+hotwire if you want to keep up with your Tekin peers. And then if Novak's new software is .2 faster... Now 13.5 is faster than 3.5, and you have to spend $100 on new 25.5 motors to slow back down. Or we could just stop this now and focus on other things.
Am I being daft? You guys have seen what's going on at big races, right? That stuff will trickle down to your happy little clubs.
Am I being daft? You guys have seen what's going on at big races, right? That stuff will trickle down to your happy little clubs.
#34
Company Representative
A sensible solution is simple and doable.....
All speed control manufacturers (who wish to participate in entry level spec racing) offer a separate, non-timing, non-PC programmable controller for less than 99.99 (street price).
This needs to be a separate esc because just expecting manufacturers or users to not access timing related programming features in their existing controllers would be a nightmare to police. Each time a mfg releases a programming update, the esc is essentially a new controller. So any attempts by series organizers to establish a cut-off date for new escs is a pointless waste of time. How do racers even know if or when they have the latest update?
For example our existing Havoc 2S offers nine, on-board programming parameters for a price of 79.99. This is about as much programming as most new racers can understand or manage. In addition, more complicated escs are harder on motors and create additional problems.
If the goal is to attract more customers to the R/C hobby and increase participation in various entry level events, we need to make getting involved more affordable for the new guys who are excited about getting involved in local racing.
Just my .02 cents.
This needs to be a separate esc because just expecting manufacturers or users to not access timing related programming features in their existing controllers would be a nightmare to police. Each time a mfg releases a programming update, the esc is essentially a new controller. So any attempts by series organizers to establish a cut-off date for new escs is a pointless waste of time. How do racers even know if or when they have the latest update?
For example our existing Havoc 2S offers nine, on-board programming parameters for a price of 79.99. This is about as much programming as most new racers can understand or manage. In addition, more complicated escs are harder on motors and create additional problems.
If the goal is to attract more customers to the R/C hobby and increase participation in various entry level events, we need to make getting involved more affordable for the new guys who are excited about getting involved in local racing.
Just my .02 cents.
#35
Tech Apprentice
Look at the discussions surrounding the BRL series, and its banning of certain ESC's to see that racers don't want to play this game.
No it won't help as much at the national level races where people have direct access to manufactures to cheat. But realistically club racers will never have that type of access. At club level races, yes I think something like this would help even things up. Yes it is hard to spec. At the club level, I believe the way to do it would be to only spec somebody that wins over and over. Then they can either disqualify them or tell us how they are winning. It is club level.
#36
Tech Champion
That's just the thing...a spec ESC makes it less affordable. Currently with spec racing you just have to buy a new motor. Chances are a backyard basher is not going to buy a spec ESC to play around with...so now when he decides he wants to race instead of just changing motor he now has to change motor and ESC.
#37
Tech Adept
if the RC community were to embrace this it must be an all or nothing solution. You can't have "trust the end user" in rules when it comes to software. In the end, there must be rules about software in spec classes if people want it to be equivalent to the brushed motor days.
The simplest way is to have a tamper-proof (ie. one time programmable MCU), approved fixed X degree timing ESC with fixed timing motors & rotors. This is as close to spec as you can get without naming single manufacturers. The cost is lower and generally the only freedom left is gearing and PWM techniques.
There is still a very small element of trust the manufacturers won't use some secret technique to bypass the system but there is that same risk today with motors anyway.
maybe stock has a fixed timing ESC and super stock has the variable timing ones already existing?
The simplest way is to have a tamper-proof (ie. one time programmable MCU), approved fixed X degree timing ESC with fixed timing motors & rotors. This is as close to spec as you can get without naming single manufacturers. The cost is lower and generally the only freedom left is gearing and PWM techniques.
There is still a very small element of trust the manufacturers won't use some secret technique to bypass the system but there is that same risk today with motors anyway.
maybe stock has a fixed timing ESC and super stock has the variable timing ones already existing?
#38
Tech Apprentice
That's just the thing...a spec ESC makes it less affordable. Currently with spec racing you just have to buy a new motor. Chances are a backyard basher is not going to buy a spec ESC to play around with...so now when he decides he wants to race instead of just changing motor he now has to change motor and ESC.
#39
Tech Champion
Not often but he probably would buy a Mamba or a Tekin for much less money that does have timing adjustments available.
#40
how do I know you didnt take the insides of a better esc and put it in the 'spec' esc case?
or just find a way to reprogram it
If a "spec esc" came out we would still have to buy it hence increasing the cost of racing as I HAVE to buy a new item, kind of like the way it already is...
My buddy with 3800 28c and LRP tc esc kills all of us with spx and 50c at my local track
or just find a way to reprogram it
If a "spec esc" came out we would still have to buy it hence increasing the cost of racing as I HAVE to buy a new item, kind of like the way it already is...
My buddy with 3800 28c and LRP tc esc kills all of us with spx and 50c at my local track
#42
Okay, so then we're going to pretend there's not actually a problem? That there's no incentive to throw your wallet at spec racing when it doesn't have to be that way? That every club, series and big race now has to deal with what ESC's are legal and what isn't?
We have it within our grasp to stop this, and make things better for free, and you guys are gonna be like "everything is great, guys, what are you talking about?"
We have it within our grasp to stop this, and make things better for free, and you guys are gonna be like "everything is great, guys, what are you talking about?"
no one is making anyone run out and buy anything. if you have 3-4-5 guys swaping wins and driver A starts dominating with is new magic ESC well then, step up, or be happy with 2nd.
However I have yet to be beat by a ESC being used by someone that wasn't going to beat me anyway
and the real easy solution to all this, for you club, series, or national spec racing, just set a timing limit, set a gear ratio limit, set a turbo limit, If the people you race with decide to cheat, well thats on them, don't ask me to buy more equipment because you don't trust your fellow racers. of course the even easier and less expensive way to go would be to spec brushed motors and escs for your spec classes
its just my opinion, and my experiences from which i speak.
#43
This is the same old tired thead as the "fixed timing on motors" thread. Just go racing and have fun. If your a good driver you'll be up front if not you'll be in the back like me. Just stop compaining already.
#44
Well, the current issue is that you have to spend $350-$400 on a new ESC or be .4 off. And that means everybody has to spend that kind of money just to all get back in line right where they were. And it looks like Tekin is about to drop new software to get back in the game, which means if you're using some other ESC, you need to drop $150+hotwire if you want to keep up with your Tekin peers. And then if Novak's new software is .2 faster... Now 13.5 is faster than 3.5, and you have to spend $100 on new 25.5 motors to slow back down. Or we could just stop this now and focus on other things.
Am I being daft? You guys have seen what's going on at big races, right? That stuff will trickle down to your happy little clubs.
Am I being daft? You guys have seen what's going on at big races, right? That stuff will trickle down to your happy little clubs.
#45
Tech Master
iTrader: (89)
Moral of the story is the only thing that's "spec" about 13.5 and 17.5 is the wind of the motor, just as it was in 27t and 19t. Those classes weren't cheap to compete in either.
There's plenty of 'spec' classes to race in that controls batteries, esc's, tires ect ect.. So if slower, less expensive, mandated spec racing is what your into then maybe you should look into racing in those classes.
There's plenty of 'spec' classes to race in that controls batteries, esc's, tires ect ect.. So if slower, less expensive, mandated spec racing is what your into then maybe you should look into racing in those classes.