To ROAR Fixed Timing On Stock Brushless Motors
12-15-2009, 04:39 PM
#166
The entire point to this thread( in my humble opinion) is to creat a class for racing where you feel that you were only beaten by talent, not money.
Stock was always intended to be a class to grow talent and harvest drivers for mod. That has come and gone.
So if racers truly want a class to run where talent is the determining factor of winning, rules will need to be designed around that.
Stock was always intended to be a class to grow talent and harvest drivers for mod. That has come and gone.
So if racers truly want a class to run where talent is the determining factor of winning, rules will need to be designed around that.
12-15-2009, 04:57 PM
#167
The entire point to this thread( in my humble opinion) is to creat a class for racing where you feel that you were only beaten by talent, not money.
Stock was always intended to be a class to grow talent and harvest drivers for mod. That has come and gone.
So if racers truly want a class to run where talent is the determining factor of winning, rules will need to be designed around that.
Stock was always intended to be a class to grow talent and harvest drivers for mod. That has come and gone.
So if racers truly want a class to run where talent is the determining factor of winning, rules will need to be designed around that.
Racing and this hobby isn't all about driving IMO.
12-15-2009, 04:59 PM
#168
The entire point to this thread( in my humble opinion) is to creat a class for racing where you feel that you were only beaten by talent, not money.
Stock was always intended to be a class to grow talent and harvest drivers for mod. That has come and gone.
So if racers truly want a class to run where talent is the determining factor of winning, rules will need to be designed around that.
Stock was always intended to be a class to grow talent and harvest drivers for mod. That has come and gone.
So if racers truly want a class to run where talent is the determining factor of winning, rules will need to be designed around that.
that's the only way to be truly equal
12-15-2009, 05:01 PM
#169
i think its time for a Tamiya Rep to post.
oh wait that got messed up with the 50.00 dollars silver can motors
oh wait that got messed up with the 50.00 dollars silver can motors
12-16-2009, 01:12 AM
#172
quote timmay70
2. bushings wear out, and bushings wear out whatever rides in them. I am not purchasing a motor that will wear out in 3 months because some numbnuts thought it was a good idea to have bushings. Bearings aren't the major cost to producing brushless motors. IMO, the next progression in stock brushed motors should have included bearings.
+1!!!
(imo) How is a motor that wears itself out quicker being cost effective and useful for the racers it was intended for? (not experienced enough to be in mod and want to spend less on their racing).
Stock should be cheaper and should have LESS wear rate than mod, not be more expensive...
I think, if any local club made a silver can 540 motor the "stock" class, it would help any newcomer by
a) being cheap
b) being slow enough to control
Ok, so the speed difference gap to brushless is big, (and expensive), but a season in a 540 class is a VERY cheap way to racing and then to start saving for brushless in race season 2 if they want to keep at it.
And at the same time, a gap to do some research on what brushless system to buy in season 2....
Would you see many team guys hanging out in a silver can 540 class?
Far,far too slow for them, surely? And not desirable with the amount of brushless ESC's and motors being used...
let the "pro class" be 17.5 or 13.5 at club level, then even more motor for bigger events.
We are talking about the newcomer to the hobby, right?
These are the guys we need to care about right now to see our hobby grow, yes???? (Can we stop thinking about sedan being too fast for stock, and think about the less experienced/newcomer for now. It is a slightly different observation point...)
The gateway to r/c should be inexpensive, I DON'T see brushless being a good gateway....
(And on a seperate note, or lipo being a cheap entry level option).
All it does is add to the initial cost and turn people away...
Old, simple tech that is affordable to all who enter the hobby, not the one with deep pockets. Im more than sure less interested people will walk if they see an easier price tag on r/c racing, especially as a high cost risk is one that many are put off by starting r/c...
Look at it this way.... if a tamiya silver can motor is good enough for the well established Tamiya series, it should be good enough to start racing with!
They are also cheap enough to replace too, unlike a burnt out brushless motor,ok so a silver can IS bushed, but they won't rev like a faster brushless motor so the bushings should last longer... Just the gearing to worry about - not endless options in a brushless ESC and programmer.
Put it this way, a 21.5 or 25.5 slows a car down, but it's still expensive to buy initially,(as is a brushless ESC) and to replace if it goes wrong!
THE Question to think over carefully is: Why are we trying to over complicate a newcomer with brushless tech, and at a higher price tag than its simpler cousin, the brushed motor setup?
It just doesnt make sense
Some guys, (myself included) still don't fully understand brushless technology after being in the hobby for 15 years...
Let the new era/tech of brushless and exotic cars have its place with the faster guys.
Put your feet in a newcomers shoes!!!! Why force the tech on them from day 1?
When all they need is a cheap motor and a strong (example, safe, enclosed tub chassis) car for example to get on the track.... Throw it down and learn the basics.
2. bushings wear out, and bushings wear out whatever rides in them. I am not purchasing a motor that will wear out in 3 months because some numbnuts thought it was a good idea to have bushings. Bearings aren't the major cost to producing brushless motors. IMO, the next progression in stock brushed motors should have included bearings.
+1!!!
(imo) How is a motor that wears itself out quicker being cost effective and useful for the racers it was intended for? (not experienced enough to be in mod and want to spend less on their racing).
Stock should be cheaper and should have LESS wear rate than mod, not be more expensive...
I think, if any local club made a silver can 540 motor the "stock" class, it would help any newcomer by
a) being cheap
b) being slow enough to control
Ok, so the speed difference gap to brushless is big, (and expensive), but a season in a 540 class is a VERY cheap way to racing and then to start saving for brushless in race season 2 if they want to keep at it.
And at the same time, a gap to do some research on what brushless system to buy in season 2....
Would you see many team guys hanging out in a silver can 540 class?
Far,far too slow for them, surely? And not desirable with the amount of brushless ESC's and motors being used...
let the "pro class" be 17.5 or 13.5 at club level, then even more motor for bigger events.
We are talking about the newcomer to the hobby, right?
These are the guys we need to care about right now to see our hobby grow, yes???? (Can we stop thinking about sedan being too fast for stock, and think about the less experienced/newcomer for now. It is a slightly different observation point...)
The gateway to r/c should be inexpensive, I DON'T see brushless being a good gateway....
(And on a seperate note, or lipo being a cheap entry level option).
All it does is add to the initial cost and turn people away...
Old, simple tech that is affordable to all who enter the hobby, not the one with deep pockets. Im more than sure less interested people will walk if they see an easier price tag on r/c racing, especially as a high cost risk is one that many are put off by starting r/c...
Look at it this way.... if a tamiya silver can motor is good enough for the well established Tamiya series, it should be good enough to start racing with!
They are also cheap enough to replace too, unlike a burnt out brushless motor,ok so a silver can IS bushed, but they won't rev like a faster brushless motor so the bushings should last longer... Just the gearing to worry about - not endless options in a brushless ESC and programmer.
Put it this way, a 21.5 or 25.5 slows a car down, but it's still expensive to buy initially,(as is a brushless ESC) and to replace if it goes wrong!
THE Question to think over carefully is: Why are we trying to over complicate a newcomer with brushless tech, and at a higher price tag than its simpler cousin, the brushed motor setup?
It just doesnt make sense
Some guys, (myself included) still don't fully understand brushless technology after being in the hobby for 15 years...Let the new era/tech of brushless and exotic cars have its place with the faster guys.
Put your feet in a newcomers shoes!!!! Why force the tech on them from day 1?
When all they need is a cheap motor and a strong (example, safe, enclosed tub chassis) car for example to get on the track.... Throw it down and learn the basics.
Last edited by tc3team; 12-16-2009 at 03:14 AM.
12-16-2009, 04:27 AM
#173
Just to make a counterpoint, although i agree in some aspects with what TC3team just wrote.
Novak Havoc ESC and motor run @ $150-$160 from your LHS. A Zippy Flightmax 4000mah Lipo runs @ $35 shipped to your door from Hong Kong. The Thunder AC6 charger is @ $60 shipped.
That's @ $255 for a power train that's going to last you a very, VERY long time.
We've had guys interested in coming back to the hobby ask us about NiCads, motors, NiMH, etc. When we tell them the current price for this new tech AND how long it lasts they get incredibly excited. The price, run time and life span of Lipos is what really interests them in coming back.
However, with the price of used, brushed ESCs these days and a silver can off the shelf, that would be a great way to get those people on the fence about spending money hooked into the hobby. Heck, i'm sure most of us have brushed ESCs we could just give people.
Novak Havoc ESC and motor run @ $150-$160 from your LHS. A Zippy Flightmax 4000mah Lipo runs @ $35 shipped to your door from Hong Kong. The Thunder AC6 charger is @ $60 shipped.
That's @ $255 for a power train that's going to last you a very, VERY long time.
We've had guys interested in coming back to the hobby ask us about NiCads, motors, NiMH, etc. When we tell them the current price for this new tech AND how long it lasts they get incredibly excited. The price, run time and life span of Lipos is what really interests them in coming back.
However, with the price of used, brushed ESCs these days and a silver can off the shelf, that would be a great way to get those people on the fence about spending money hooked into the hobby. Heck, i'm sure most of us have brushed ESCs we could just give people.
12-16-2009, 04:32 AM
#174
And one last thing since i don't think i saw it brought up...
Why not limit stock classes to a certain MPH that can be teched with a radar gun as people are checking in for the timing system?
People can run WHATEVER equipment they want as long as they don't exceed "X" mph on the longest straight. I think a VTA track in Tennessee does something like this.
Once people get tired of the speed limit, they have they equipment to move up to a "Sportsman" or "Super Stock" class. And people with the super fast, super expensive equipment could gear down and work on their setups and driving.
Just a thought since "speed, novices and budget racers" seems to be the issue.
Why not limit stock classes to a certain MPH that can be teched with a radar gun as people are checking in for the timing system?
People can run WHATEVER equipment they want as long as they don't exceed "X" mph on the longest straight. I think a VTA track in Tennessee does something like this.
Once people get tired of the speed limit, they have they equipment to move up to a "Sportsman" or "Super Stock" class. And people with the super fast, super expensive equipment could gear down and work on their setups and driving.
Just a thought since "speed, novices and budget racers" seems to be the issue.
12-16-2009, 04:58 AM
#176
Just to make a counterpoint, although i agree in some aspects with what TC3team just wrote.
Novak Havoc ESC and motor run @ $150-$160 from your LHS. A Zippy Flightmax 4000mah Lipo runs @ $35 shipped to your door from Hong Kong. The Thunder AC6 charger is @ $60 shipped.
That's @ $255 for a power train that's going to last you a very, VERY long time.
We've had guys interested in coming back to the hobby ask us about NiCads, motors, NiMH, etc. When we tell them the current price for this new tech AND how long it lasts they get incredibly excited. The price, run time and life span of Lipos is what really interests them in coming back.
However, with the price of used, brushed ESCs these days and a silver can off the shelf, that would be a great way to get those people on the fence about spending money hooked into the hobby. Heck, i'm sure most of us have brushed ESCs we could just give people.
Novak Havoc ESC and motor run @ $150-$160 from your LHS. A Zippy Flightmax 4000mah Lipo runs @ $35 shipped to your door from Hong Kong. The Thunder AC6 charger is @ $60 shipped.
That's @ $255 for a power train that's going to last you a very, VERY long time.
We've had guys interested in coming back to the hobby ask us about NiCads, motors, NiMH, etc. When we tell them the current price for this new tech AND how long it lasts they get incredibly excited. The price, run time and life span of Lipos is what really interests them in coming back.
However, with the price of used, brushed ESCs these days and a silver can off the shelf, that would be a great way to get those people on the fence about spending money hooked into the hobby. Heck, i'm sure most of us have brushed ESCs we could just give people.
Open it up to lipo and then there's already an advantage. Any lower grade, cheaper brushless ESC is not going to have the technical edge inside it, to allow it to compete agains the likes of the top $ speed controls, so it would still need to be replaced later any way.
I would say go for the brushed motor ESC and silver can. Usually cheaper, and less to worry about if it does go up in smoke or stop working to consider quitting.
I do agree that lipo and brushless are the future of r/c though, but not for the start of someones r/c life in racing when the primary concept is to put cost aside and get FUN out of the hobby.
Let the hard work and higher cost come through into season 2 if they are ready to step up to the challenge then...
Once ANY motor is slowed down, the car becomes more managable for someone new or inexperienced.
If you don't have the option to make it fast from the first lap you turn, you are left with an easier to control car!
I just hope more people see this perspective. It is too easy to throw a brushless system into a car and see it go insanely fast, even the "slower" 17.5 motors are capable of too much speed for a newcomer.
This kinda scene happens too much.
I am not anti new tech, but it does already have it's own place in r/c - with people who can learn fast how to make it fast, and at a cost.....
And a 17.5 class is still tempting meat for a team driver to enter.... It is new tech, it is.... BRUSHLESS- we want to make them faster.
Now brushless is here, there is less enthusiasm to make brushed motors fast - especially a silver can motor that cannot be opened.
Last edited by tc3team; 12-16-2009 at 05:12 AM.
12-16-2009, 05:25 AM
#177
This thread started out as a racer asking ROAR to do something about the new speed controls with variable timing rates (or whatever magic they use to go faster). Reading through this thread I think there are 2 concusions.
ROAR cannot do anything with these speed controls. Any rule concerning software would be impossible to enforce.
A majority of racers don't want any restrictions on speed controls. This is what the technology is, and we should go with it. I think I'm in this camp.
As far as an entry level class with spec'ed motors and speedo's, that would have to be done on the local level. Any national organization would have a hard time coming up with rules and enforcing them.
The overlying problem for electric touring car is how do we define the classes? And the first question is rubber tires or foam tires? I would think that a rubber tire class would be cheaper in that you don't have to buy a tire truer.
Potentially you could do 4 classes in TC just based on motor spec: 17.5, 13.5, 10.5, and open. If you had foam and rubber for each now that's 8 classes. I propose that along with the motors you also call out the tires. 17.5 and 13.5 would be rubber tire. 10.5 and open would be foam tire.
For this to be solved we need more positive input from racers, not just the ROAR sucks comments.
ROAR cannot do anything with these speed controls. Any rule concerning software would be impossible to enforce.
A majority of racers don't want any restrictions on speed controls. This is what the technology is, and we should go with it. I think I'm in this camp.
As far as an entry level class with spec'ed motors and speedo's, that would have to be done on the local level. Any national organization would have a hard time coming up with rules and enforcing them.
The overlying problem for electric touring car is how do we define the classes? And the first question is rubber tires or foam tires? I would think that a rubber tire class would be cheaper in that you don't have to buy a tire truer.
Potentially you could do 4 classes in TC just based on motor spec: 17.5, 13.5, 10.5, and open. If you had foam and rubber for each now that's 8 classes. I propose that along with the motors you also call out the tires. 17.5 and 13.5 would be rubber tire. 10.5 and open would be foam tire.
For this to be solved we need more positive input from racers, not just the ROAR sucks comments.
12-16-2009, 05:38 AM
#178
As I am a somewhat OLDER [not better] racer I have seen what can be done to then 'silver' can motors to make them fast!
Many good points but you have to "Get the BIG picture', like what happens to the 'novice/neewbie when he gets PAST the brushed 'stock' steup??
YEP!! you make him spend the $$$ he should have in the beginning, Brushless/Lipo
As a LHS owner I direct our 'newbies' to VTA, 21.5/lipo,
Havoc 21.5=$150
lipo=$80
charger =$70
TC-3/4=$75
tires/wheels/body=$75
yes thats around $500, what would you save with a silver can/nimh that neither will last long?? that you have to replace on a regular basis??
Brushless Lipo is where they need to start, Novak has come out with the 25.5 rotor to help slow them down
There is no way we can predict what the future holds, and our 'sport' changes everyday, and we need to change with it
Thankx, Bill
Many good points but you have to "Get the BIG picture', like what happens to the 'novice/neewbie when he gets PAST the brushed 'stock' steup??
YEP!! you make him spend the $$$ he should have in the beginning, Brushless/Lipo
As a LHS owner I direct our 'newbies' to VTA, 21.5/lipo,
Havoc 21.5=$150
lipo=$80
charger =$70
TC-3/4=$75
tires/wheels/body=$75
yes thats around $500, what would you save with a silver can/nimh that neither will last long?? that you have to replace on a regular basis??
Brushless Lipo is where they need to start, Novak has come out with the 25.5 rotor to help slow them down
There is no way we can predict what the future holds, and our 'sport' changes everyday, and we need to change with it
Thankx, Bill
12-16-2009, 05:42 AM
#179
dupl post
Last edited by justanotherdude; 12-16-2009 at 05:44 AM. Reason: dupl post
12-16-2009, 05:44 AM
#180
This thread started out as a racer asking ROAR to do something about the new speed controls with variable timing rates (or whatever magic they use to go faster). Reading through this thread I think there are 2 concusions.
ROAR cannot do anything with these speed controls. Any rule concerning software would be impossible to enforce.
A majority of racers don't want any restrictions on speed controls. This is what the technology is, and we should go with it. I think I'm in this camp.
As far as an entry level class with spec'ed motors and speedo's, that would have to be done on the local level. Any national organization would have a hard time coming up with rules and enforcing them.
The overlying problem for electric touring car is how do we define the classes? And the first question is rubber tires or foam tires? I would think that a rubber tire class would be cheaper in that you don't have to buy a tire truer.
Potentially you could do 4 classes in TC just based on motor spec: 17.5, 13.5, 10.5, and open. If you had foam and rubber for each now that's 8 classes. I propose that along with the motors you also call out the tires. 17.5 and 13.5 would be rubber tire. 10.5 and open would be foam tire.
For this to be solved we need more positive input from racers, not just the ROAR sucks comments.
ROAR cannot do anything with these speed controls. Any rule concerning software would be impossible to enforce.
A majority of racers don't want any restrictions on speed controls. This is what the technology is, and we should go with it. I think I'm in this camp.
As far as an entry level class with spec'ed motors and speedo's, that would have to be done on the local level. Any national organization would have a hard time coming up with rules and enforcing them.
The overlying problem for electric touring car is how do we define the classes? And the first question is rubber tires or foam tires? I would think that a rubber tire class would be cheaper in that you don't have to buy a tire truer.
Potentially you could do 4 classes in TC just based on motor spec: 17.5, 13.5, 10.5, and open. If you had foam and rubber for each now that's 8 classes. I propose that along with the motors you also call out the tires. 17.5 and 13.5 would be rubber tire. 10.5 and open would be foam tire.
For this to be solved we need more positive input from racers, not just the ROAR sucks comments.
simple, too many classes, so do away with all the multiple mod motor classes and just run open-rubber and open-foam classes, and leave stock with handout motors for the new guys and those that run only that class.
