1S Mod Sedan
12-04-2009, 12:19 PM
#1
1S Mod Sedan
The way things are going with spec racing seems like the wrong direction, and has me questioning whether or not I want to continue down that road. The idea of open mod really does sound appealing, except that it's so fast many people are discouraged from running it. Since 1S has been so successful in pan cars, maybe it's time we revisit the idea for sedans. I'm going to start doing some testing, trying to figure things out, and see if there's something there. Anybody want to help?
I believe Rick Hohwart said he'd done some testing, perhaps he can share his findings with us. I'd love to hear from anybody else that's tried it as well. And, for the pros, and folks that typically run mod, what do you think of the idea of slowing it down somewhat with 1S? Is that blasphemy?
One of my concerns was run time, since we'd likely be pulling a lot more juice out of the packs. Perhaps, since the battery size for LiPo is already pretty well-established, we can keep the pack sizes the same (and weight rules), but wire the packs so they're 3.7v and double the capacity. My layman's understanding of electronics leads me to believe this is just a change in how the packs are wired internally, and perhaps how the balancing plugs are wired. Any battery manufacturers out there willing to wire a few up this way for testing? Maybe Thunderpower or someone?
The general opinion seems to be that two sedan classes ("stock" & mod) is enough. I tend to agree, though mod seems out of reach for a lot of guys at its current speeds, which is why I think you see the semi-pro folks tend to gravitate toward the middle ground of 13.5. Would the idea of a slower mod class appeal to those folks, or would they all drop back down to stock?
So what's the best way to get started testing right now? Grab a 1S pack for pan cars, add some weight, grab a booster and go?
I believe Rick Hohwart said he'd done some testing, perhaps he can share his findings with us. I'd love to hear from anybody else that's tried it as well. And, for the pros, and folks that typically run mod, what do you think of the idea of slowing it down somewhat with 1S? Is that blasphemy?
One of my concerns was run time, since we'd likely be pulling a lot more juice out of the packs. Perhaps, since the battery size for LiPo is already pretty well-established, we can keep the pack sizes the same (and weight rules), but wire the packs so they're 3.7v and double the capacity. My layman's understanding of electronics leads me to believe this is just a change in how the packs are wired internally, and perhaps how the balancing plugs are wired. Any battery manufacturers out there willing to wire a few up this way for testing? Maybe Thunderpower or someone?
The general opinion seems to be that two sedan classes ("stock" & mod) is enough. I tend to agree, though mod seems out of reach for a lot of guys at its current speeds, which is why I think you see the semi-pro folks tend to gravitate toward the middle ground of 13.5. Would the idea of a slower mod class appeal to those folks, or would they all drop back down to stock?
So what's the best way to get started testing right now? Grab a 1S pack for pan cars, add some weight, grab a booster and go?
12-04-2009, 12:26 PM
#2
The way things are going with spec racing seems like the wrong direction, and has me questioning whether or not I want to continue down that road. The idea of open mod really does sound appealing, except that it's so fast many people are discouraged from running it. Since 1S has been so successful in pan cars, maybe it's time we revisit the idea for sedans. I'm going to start doing some testing, trying to figure things out, and see if there's something there. Anybody want to help?
I believe Rick Hohwart said he'd done some testing, perhaps he can share his findings with us. I'd love to hear from anybody else that's tried it as well. And, for the pros, and folks that typically run mod, what do you think of the idea of slowing it down somewhat with 1S? Is that blasphemy?
One of my concerns was run time, since we'd likely be pulling a lot more juice out of the packs. Perhaps, since the battery size for LiPo is already pretty well-established, we can keep the pack sizes the same (and weight rules), but wire the packs so they're 3.7v and double the capacity. My layman's understanding of electronics leads me to believe this is just a change in how the packs are wired internally, and perhaps how the balancing plugs are wired. Any battery manufacturers out there willing to wire a few up this way for testing? Maybe Thunderpower or someone?
The general opinion seems to be that two sedan classes ("stock" & mod) is enough. I tend to agree, though mod seems out of reach for a lot of guys at its current speeds, which is why I think you see the semi-pro folks tend to gravitate toward the middle ground of 13.5. Would the idea of a slower mod class appeal to those folks, or would they all drop back down to stock?
So what's the best way to get started testing right now? Grab a 1S pack for pan cars, add some weight, grab a booster and go?
I believe Rick Hohwart said he'd done some testing, perhaps he can share his findings with us. I'd love to hear from anybody else that's tried it as well. And, for the pros, and folks that typically run mod, what do you think of the idea of slowing it down somewhat with 1S? Is that blasphemy?
One of my concerns was run time, since we'd likely be pulling a lot more juice out of the packs. Perhaps, since the battery size for LiPo is already pretty well-established, we can keep the pack sizes the same (and weight rules), but wire the packs so they're 3.7v and double the capacity. My layman's understanding of electronics leads me to believe this is just a change in how the packs are wired internally, and perhaps how the balancing plugs are wired. Any battery manufacturers out there willing to wire a few up this way for testing? Maybe Thunderpower or someone?
The general opinion seems to be that two sedan classes ("stock" & mod) is enough. I tend to agree, though mod seems out of reach for a lot of guys at its current speeds, which is why I think you see the semi-pro folks tend to gravitate toward the middle ground of 13.5. Would the idea of a slower mod class appeal to those folks, or would they all drop back down to stock?
So what's the best way to get started testing right now? Grab a 1S pack for pan cars, add some weight, grab a booster and go?
12-04-2009, 12:30 PM
#3
That does sound like an interesting idea.
For a little perspective on the power side of things, I can tell you that on a smallish carpet track I am consistently pulling a little over 4000mah running a 3.5 in 1/12.
For a little perspective on the power side of things, I can tell you that on a smallish carpet track I am consistently pulling a little over 4000mah running a 3.5 in 1/12.
12-04-2009, 12:40 PM
#4
i think this would be great for all classes to be 1s lipo. i know that they could make 1s in the same configuration as a 2s lipo and it would not change much except you would need a receiver pack.
Mike
Mike
12-04-2009, 12:58 PM
#5
Lower voltage just doubles the amp draw and heat, the reason it works so well in 1/12 is that the cars don't weigh much. Nowadays the 21.5's in VTA cars are pretty fast.
All the rules need to be revisited, 13.5 was supposed to be a stock or superstock class but with the turbo equipped speed controls they're two winds worth faster so the class is pretty much busted, same w/ 17.5, which now seem as fast as 13.5's were in sedan.
The other day I heard two of the best ideas for stock/spec racing:
#1 no traction compounds. I know some will say "but the cars will be uncontrollable!", to which I answer true, with the current power packages, but when you limit traction, power comes into line until control is achieved.
#2 solder a fuse of a certain amperage in line with the battery. 15 amps? 30 amps? What better way to govern how much power will be used than an in-line ampreage limiter? This should probably be a re-settable circuit breaker...
All the rules need to be revisited, 13.5 was supposed to be a stock or superstock class but with the turbo equipped speed controls they're two winds worth faster so the class is pretty much busted, same w/ 17.5, which now seem as fast as 13.5's were in sedan.
The other day I heard two of the best ideas for stock/spec racing:
#1 no traction compounds. I know some will say "but the cars will be uncontrollable!", to which I answer true, with the current power packages, but when you limit traction, power comes into line until control is achieved.
#2 solder a fuse of a certain amperage in line with the battery. 15 amps? 30 amps? What better way to govern how much power will be used than an in-line ampreage limiter? This should probably be a re-settable circuit breaker...
12-04-2009, 01:18 PM
#6
With 80C batteries, or whatever we've got now, amp draw really isn't an issue, right?
Your other ideas sound interesting, but I think maybe we're at the point where a more fundamental change is in order. The idea of going 1S in all classes intrigues me. With 17.5 sedan continuing to get faster, maybe making it 1S makes sense as well.
As for run time in 1S 1/12 mod, taking 4000mah out after 8 minutes isn't too bad. If sedans only run 6, and have room for double capacity packs, that would probably be a non-factor. Though it does take longer to charge them when you're putting 6Ah back in.
Your other ideas sound interesting, but I think maybe we're at the point where a more fundamental change is in order. The idea of going 1S in all classes intrigues me. With 17.5 sedan continuing to get faster, maybe making it 1S makes sense as well.
As for run time in 1S 1/12 mod, taking 4000mah out after 8 minutes isn't too bad. If sedans only run 6, and have room for double capacity packs, that would probably be a non-factor. Though it does take longer to charge them when you're putting 6Ah back in.
12-04-2009, 01:24 PM
#7
EFRA have allowed LiFe (6.6V) as of 15/2 next year. I think this is a great alternative for people that think modified is to fast. 6.6V is a little faster than a five cell setup but more controllable than Lipo. It´s safer too.
I think anything below 6V puts too much stress on electronics and motors in touring (low voltage/heavy cars).
I think anything below 6V puts too much stress on electronics and motors in touring (low voltage/heavy cars).
12-04-2009, 01:30 PM
#8
Certainly LiFe is an interesting option, but does that really slow things down enough?
The concern about putting too much strain on motors and electronics is definitely something to be mindful of, but I imagine we'd need to do further testing to know for certain. The same was said for 1S pan cars when people started testing that, and it ended up being pretty effective.
The concern about putting too much strain on motors and electronics is definitely something to be mindful of, but I imagine we'd need to do further testing to know for certain. The same was said for 1S pan cars when people started testing that, and it ended up being pretty effective.
12-04-2009, 01:47 PM
#9
Certainly LiFe is an interesting option, but does that really slow things down enough?
The concern about putting too much strain on motors and electronics is definitely something to be mindful of, but I imagine we'd need to do further testing to know for certain. The same was said for 1S pan cars when people started testing that, and it ended up being pretty effective.
The concern about putting too much strain on motors and electronics is definitely something to be mindful of, but I imagine we'd need to do further testing to know for certain. The same was said for 1S pan cars when people started testing that, and it ended up being pretty effective.
12-04-2009, 01:51 PM
#10
Take a 2S saddle pack that's standardly used in 4wd offroad, cut the center jumper and wire both '1S' packs in parrallel. Same size, roughly, as a 2S existing pack, but with 10,000-12,000 mAh capacity. Then unleash the 1.5 mod motors 
Oh, u better use a 1/8th buggy ESC like an RX8 to handle the amp draw 
Oh, u better use a 1/8th buggy ESC like an RX8 to handle the amp draw
12-04-2009, 02:01 PM
#11
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So, we go to 3.7v LiPo to slow down the cars. Then strap in more motor, buy the latest ESC with whatever black magic software in it to because we need to once again go faster!?!
Am I the only one seeing this vicious cycle?
Keep it simple. Stock and open mod for touring (maybe 13.5 superstock). With open mod, ya can run whatever your skills can handle.
Am I the only one seeing this vicious cycle?
Keep it simple. Stock and open mod for touring (maybe 13.5 superstock). With open mod, ya can run whatever your skills can handle.
12-04-2009, 02:04 PM
#12
Personally, I say run the same pack in both 12th and sedan. Limit the capacity and you'll limit the speeds by default.
For me, single cell 12th has braught two of the most important parts of mod racing back. Driving a pace and strategy. Limiting the capacity in mod has forced us to drive a pace. No more driving pretty much flat out for the entire run. And because you can dump you need to use strategy on when to save power and when to go for it. These two things were a huge part of 12th back in the day and I'm happy to see them come back. At least until the batteries improve enough to keep us from dumping.
Just my 2 cents but I think that adding driving and strategy are two things that would do sedan some good.
For me, single cell 12th has braught two of the most important parts of mod racing back. Driving a pace and strategy. Limiting the capacity in mod has forced us to drive a pace. No more driving pretty much flat out for the entire run. And because you can dump you need to use strategy on when to save power and when to go for it. These two things were a huge part of 12th back in the day and I'm happy to see them come back. At least until the batteries improve enough to keep us from dumping.
Just my 2 cents but I think that adding driving and strategy are two things that would do sedan some good.
12-04-2009, 02:08 PM
#13
Personally, I say run the same pack in both 12th and sedan. Limit the capacity and you'll limit the speeds by default.
For me, single cell 12th has braught two of the most important parts of mod racing back. Driving a pace and strategy. Limiting the capacity in mod has forced us to drive a pace. No more driving pretty much flat out for the entire run. And because you can dump you need to use strategy on when to save power and when to go for it. These two things were a huge part of 12th back in the day and I'm happy to see them come back. At least until the batteries improve enough to keep us from dumping.
Just my 2 cents but I think that adding driving and strategy are two things that would do sedan some good.
For me, single cell 12th has braught two of the most important parts of mod racing back. Driving a pace and strategy. Limiting the capacity in mod has forced us to drive a pace. No more driving pretty much flat out for the entire run. And because you can dump you need to use strategy on when to save power and when to go for it. These two things were a huge part of 12th back in the day and I'm happy to see them come back. At least until the batteries improve enough to keep us from dumping.
Just my 2 cents but I think that adding driving and strategy are two things that would do sedan some good.
12-04-2009, 02:09 PM
#14
any1 remember the '4cell experiment'?
R
R
12-04-2009, 02:14 PM
#15
The avg voltage during a discharge is below 6v @35 amps. LiFe is a definate alternative however the only way people are going to adopt them is if the rules change and make lipo illeagal.
Who will willing give up 7.4v for 6.6v?
I agree that something needs to change in order for TC to make a come back.
I also agree that all classes of TC need to be slower, this will accomplish 2 things.
1. It is easier for beginners to drive and hopefully keep in the class.
2. Force more advanced drivers to move up in class because they can't stand going slow.
I was/am in favor of 1s racing for all on-road but I also see the hurdles that have to be cleared to make this happen. LiFe might be a better alternative.
PS I have tested a mod 1s sedan and it works fine. Cars will need completely different set ups because it is so light. My car weighed in at 1230g with 1s.
It was fun to drive, just a little faster than current 13.5t speeds. The speed that most racers seem to want to run these days.