Tekin ESC and motor Timing explained
11-03-2009, 01:19 PM
#1
Tech Master
Thread Starter
Tekin ESC and motor Timing explained
We effectively have a 3 speed tranny. Instead of changing the gearing we are changing the rpms of the motor. As we add timing to increase rpms we loose torque. So we use lower timing during the launch where we need torque and add more timing as we accelerate and shift to second gear, and even more timing at top speed where the toque load is low and we want the extra rpms. If you add too much timing too soon it is like shifting half way up the tach in a real car only instead of bogging we just pull the power to get it done and make a lot of heat due to the inefficiency.
The heat effects are exponential as you pass the sweet spot. A few degrees of timing or turbo kicking in barely too soon can cause temps to increase significantly, but go fast for the first few minutes.
Motor Timing: Launch
Motor timing is an absolute. It’s effective throughout the entire range of the cars speed. This is the adjustment that should be made for the first few feet of car travel. It should not be forgotten in the “overall” timing calculation. Less motor timing gives you more torque and less rpm, more motor timing gives less torque and more rpm. With the additional advantages of mechanical gearing we can get a little of both worlds The additional timing we add above the motor timing as the motor spools up allows us to get the rpms for top speed without losing the extra torque at low speeds.
Timing Boost: Acceleration
Timing boost occurs after the car has travelled a short distance and has met a certain rpm. This setting should be adjusted for use in the infield sections and the majority of the track. This is along with motor timing is your midrange setting. This is a very critical setup as it can determine how much speed is carried onto the straight away, how much punch you have in the infield sections, etc.
Overall Timing Calculation: Motor Timing + Timing Boost = Overall timing
For the majority of spec motor racing you don’t want to exceed 30 degrees of overall timing. Spinning the motor to the highest limits is not the best answer for lap times. Remember that we race r/c cars, not dynos! Set your cars up to get the best lap times!
Timing boost is the acceleration
Turbo Timing: Top speed
Turbo timing is timing on top of Motor Timing and Turbo Timing. This is effectively used on longer straight away sections where lower gearing and timing settings that give you the edge for the infield sections isn’t the ideal setting for the straight away. This gives you the best of both worlds. You have a fast car/setup for the infield sections but will not give up the top speed on the longer sections. The optimal time for the turbo timing to come on is the apex or 10-20 feet past the apex leading onto the straight away.
Ideally you want your car to begin spooling out a bit, but not flattening out the acceleration curve. Imagine a real car; you’d want turbo to come on right where you’d be shifting into 2nd gear. If this comes on too soon, motor damage can be the result it just creates a lot of heat. This will show up initially as motor heat, cogging (should never cog in any condition, slow or hot maybe but never actually run rough. Then again if timing is advanced to the point of actually being in the next phase and we are not rotating fast enough to coast thru it we could be rough. I still hate to even say that term), etc.
Ideal Setups:
There isn’t a “magic” setup for any motor or wind. Each track, each driver and each setup will differ slightly. I recommend setting up your cars Motor and Timing Boost along with gearing for the infield sections initially. Then once you’ve gotten that setup correctly and lap times in those sections are on then you move forward with Turbo Timing. Delay is critical. Too soon will get you excessive motor heat, too late and the car will stop accelerating efficiently.
__________________
Randy Tekin Team Manager
Tekin Setup Page: http://www.teamtekin.com/hotwire/ESCsetups/
The heat effects are exponential as you pass the sweet spot. A few degrees of timing or turbo kicking in barely too soon can cause temps to increase significantly, but go fast for the first few minutes.
Motor Timing: Launch
Motor timing is an absolute. It’s effective throughout the entire range of the cars speed. This is the adjustment that should be made for the first few feet of car travel. It should not be forgotten in the “overall” timing calculation. Less motor timing gives you more torque and less rpm, more motor timing gives less torque and more rpm. With the additional advantages of mechanical gearing we can get a little of both worlds The additional timing we add above the motor timing as the motor spools up allows us to get the rpms for top speed without losing the extra torque at low speeds.
Timing Boost: Acceleration
Timing boost occurs after the car has travelled a short distance and has met a certain rpm. This setting should be adjusted for use in the infield sections and the majority of the track. This is along with motor timing is your midrange setting. This is a very critical setup as it can determine how much speed is carried onto the straight away, how much punch you have in the infield sections, etc.
Overall Timing Calculation: Motor Timing + Timing Boost = Overall timing
For the majority of spec motor racing you don’t want to exceed 30 degrees of overall timing. Spinning the motor to the highest limits is not the best answer for lap times. Remember that we race r/c cars, not dynos! Set your cars up to get the best lap times!
Timing boost is the acceleration
Turbo Timing: Top speed
Turbo timing is timing on top of Motor Timing and Turbo Timing. This is effectively used on longer straight away sections where lower gearing and timing settings that give you the edge for the infield sections isn’t the ideal setting for the straight away. This gives you the best of both worlds. You have a fast car/setup for the infield sections but will not give up the top speed on the longer sections. The optimal time for the turbo timing to come on is the apex or 10-20 feet past the apex leading onto the straight away.
Ideally you want your car to begin spooling out a bit, but not flattening out the acceleration curve. Imagine a real car; you’d want turbo to come on right where you’d be shifting into 2nd gear. If this comes on too soon, motor damage can be the result it just creates a lot of heat. This will show up initially as motor heat, cogging (should never cog in any condition, slow or hot maybe but never actually run rough. Then again if timing is advanced to the point of actually being in the next phase and we are not rotating fast enough to coast thru it we could be rough. I still hate to even say that term), etc.
Ideal Setups:
There isn’t a “magic” setup for any motor or wind. Each track, each driver and each setup will differ slightly. I recommend setting up your cars Motor and Timing Boost along with gearing for the infield sections initially. Then once you’ve gotten that setup correctly and lap times in those sections are on then you move forward with Turbo Timing. Delay is critical. Too soon will get you excessive motor heat, too late and the car will stop accelerating efficiently.
__________________
Randy Tekin Team Manager
Tekin Setup Page: http://www.teamtekin.com/hotwire/ESCsetups/
11-03-2009, 01:21 PM
#2
Tech Master
Thread Starter
I started this as a new thread, as it deserves it.
Randy replied to some more queries in one of the other threads about how to try and understand what the different timing adjustments do (or try to do).
This is gold.
Randy replied to some more queries in one of the other threads about how to try and understand what the different timing adjustments do (or try to do).
This is gold.
11-03-2009, 03:03 PM
#4
Tech Fanatic
iTrader: (14)
In reguards to this article, where would the Throttle Profile fit?
I've read that TP3 is ideal base point (linear) and that TP is essentially Throttle Exponential, "ramp up", simular to the radio function.
But where exactly would you consider Throttle Profile in the above equation, if you're looking for the most response (punch) in the infield?
With my current hotwire setup:
Throttle Profile: 5
Timing Boost: Max
Turbo Boost: Max
Free wheeling the motor sounds as follows
0-1 seconds it hits max rpm (assuming this is the motor's timing)
2-3 seconds it sounds like its building more rpm
4-6 seconds later its hit complete rev range and sounds like I've now have a mod motor (somewhat scary coming from a 17.5 motor)
The best way to describe it would be turbo lag. I personally drive a turbo'd car and its as though the I skipped 1st gear and jumped into 2nd with my foot burried into the floor board and just watch as the rpm slowly build up then watching my boost following suit.
Just let me know if I answered my own question.
Rudy Diaz
I've read that TP3 is ideal base point (linear) and that TP is essentially Throttle Exponential, "ramp up", simular to the radio function.
But where exactly would you consider Throttle Profile in the above equation, if you're looking for the most response (punch) in the infield?
With my current hotwire setup:
Throttle Profile: 5
Timing Boost: Max
Turbo Boost: Max
Free wheeling the motor sounds as follows
0-1 seconds it hits max rpm (assuming this is the motor's timing)
2-3 seconds it sounds like its building more rpm
4-6 seconds later its hit complete rev range and sounds like I've now have a mod motor (somewhat scary coming from a 17.5 motor)
The best way to describe it would be turbo lag. I personally drive a turbo'd car and its as though the I skipped 1st gear and jumped into 2nd with my foot burried into the floor board and just watch as the rpm slowly build up then watching my boost following suit.
Just let me know if I answered my own question.
Rudy Diaz
11-03-2009, 07:31 PM
#10
TP is like expo on steering. It has no affect on actual power. It is a preference/feel thing. Nothing really more or less.
TP really shouldn't affect your lap times.
TP really shouldn't affect your lap times.
11-03-2009, 07:48 PM
#11
[...]
__________________
Randy Tekin Team Manager
Tekin Setup Page: http://www.teamtekin.com/hotwire/ESCsetups/
That explanation doesn't clarify two points.
1. Are timing boost and Turbo applied as set timing values or ramped up progressively?
2. If timing does not (or should not) exceeed 30deg, how can Turbo apply more timing if your overall timing is already 30?
One other question here that seems to be indirectly clarified but not clearly stated is whether or not there is another parameter monitored by the speedo apart from RPM. From the explanation above it seems there isn't.
11-03-2009, 08:11 PM
#12
That explanation doesn't clarify two points.
1. Are timing boost and Turbo applied as set timing values or ramped up progressively?
2. If timing does not (or should not) exceeed 30deg, how can Turbo apply more timing if your overall timing is already 30?
One other question here that seems to be indirectly clarified but not clearly stated is whether or not there is another parameter monitored by the speedo apart from RPM. From the explanation above it seems there isn't.
1. Are timing boost and Turbo applied as set timing values or ramped up progressively?
2. If timing does not (or should not) exceeed 30deg, how can Turbo apply more timing if your overall timing is already 30?
One other question here that seems to be indirectly clarified but not clearly stated is whether or not there is another parameter monitored by the speedo apart from RPM. From the explanation above it seems there isn't.
Boost comes in at a set RPM. We don't know that RPM and it has been said to be a few feet from a standing start. When that RPM is hit, you get full timing.
Turbo comes in and starts ramping after the set delay. From my own testing, it takes .1 sec to get 2 degrees of turbo. So it takes 1.2 2 sec of full throttle to get full turbo if set to .2sec delay.
As far as I can tell, it takes RPM and full throttle to meet certain timing criteria.
11-03-2009, 08:26 PM
#13
Does anyone can explain how to read motor timing? my speedpassion motor no advanced timing adjustable....but i want to know what is the factory timing....Please don't ask me send/call speedpassion to get this information...I want to know how to read from endbell....thanks....
11-03-2009, 08:31 PM
#14
Tekin does not seem to share all this info for obvious reasons. But from my own reading and testing here is what I understand.
Boost comes in at a set RPM. We don't know that RPM and it has been said to be a few feet from a standing start. When that RPM is hit, you get full timing.
Turbo comes in and starts ramping after the set delay. From my own testing, it takes .1 sec to get 2 degrees of turbo. So it takes 1.2 2 sec of full throttle to get full turbo if set to .2sec delay.
As far as I can tell, it takes RPM and full throttle to meet certain timing criteria.
Boost comes in at a set RPM. We don't know that RPM and it has been said to be a few feet from a standing start. When that RPM is hit, you get full timing.
Turbo comes in and starts ramping after the set delay. From my own testing, it takes .1 sec to get 2 degrees of turbo. So it takes 1.2 2 sec of full throttle to get full turbo if set to .2sec delay.
As far as I can tell, it takes RPM and full throttle to meet certain timing criteria.
Thank you Pakk.
There is no obvious reason for this information not to be shared. Anyone with a little bit of basic equipment can find out if they want to.
Besides, I am not interested to know what the RPM values are, but how the process takes place (i.e. sudden, or ramped up=progressive).
11-03-2009, 08:37 PM
#15
I agree. By this time next year, we will be full capable of adding timing the way they do to full size cars. This timing thing is not anything new, just new to RC cars.
Because BL motors have sensors now, the ESC can calculate RPM. RPM with TP angle/position is all we need. We can now "dynamically" add timing. Eventually we will be dragging a line across a graph with X and Y being RPM and TP.
Because BL motors have sensors now, the ESC can calculate RPM. RPM with TP angle/position is all we need. We can now "dynamically" add timing. Eventually we will be dragging a line across a graph with X and Y being RPM and TP.