R/C Tech Live @ the 2004 Novak US Touring Car Championship
01-22-2004, 01:24 PM
#332
i agree. I run my cs-27's for about Wow Maybe 3months no lie or more. And they work the same almost maybe not exact but still useable. It Can All depend On driver of spending money Last snowbirds I went whole snowbirds On 1 set of tires
and i see people buying 3 sets or more for whole week. It all depends What you think of when your tires are no good i use my rubber tires until they start ripping or i see a whole. 
but thats my opinion. also im not a team driver so i justr ace for fun and dont have money spending on tires every month...
and i see people buying 3 sets or more for whole week. It all depends What you think of when your tires are no good i use my rubber tires until they start ripping or i see a whole. but thats my opinion. also im not a team driver so i justr ace for fun and dont have money spending on tires every month...
01-22-2004, 02:17 PM
#333
R/C Tech Founder
Thread Starter
Those of you who are championing rubber at Trackside are missing a key point. You are comparing foam tires to a $30 set of pre-mounted Take-Off tires. OK, that's fine. But keep in mind that the majority of the fastest guys -- not all, just a majority -- are now running foam. Those same guys were putting on a new set of rubber tires every week, and it made them fast, just like putting on a new set of foam tires made them fast.
Without those guys running, you can run the same set of rubber tires for 2-3 weeks and still be competitive. But if you are in a super competitive race environment, you are running new sets of tires regardless of whether or not it is foam or rubber.
So, it's $30 for a set of Take-Offs or $30 for a set of foams (assuming good pricing on both). They last just about as long in either case. So the variable becomes the expense of the tire truer. Now take into account that at MANY tracks, there is not as much traction as Trackside. So Take-Off tires do not work as well as, say, Sorex tires. So the fast guys are not just putting on a new set of tires, they are building up a new set of Sorex tires with the right insert. So now if you want to be as competitive, you are spending $45-$50 for tires, wheels and inserts each time. Ouch.
I know what you're going to say: "I didn't put a new set of tires on every 2-3 weeks and I was fine." Maybe you were. But were you competing directly against the fastest guys at the track? Nope.
Based on all of that, I think either side of the "I run foam/rubber because it costs less" is just plain wrong. They cost about the same. Besides, if you think you race regularly in this hobby without spending money, then man, you need to do a serious reality check. It's expensive.
Without those guys running, you can run the same set of rubber tires for 2-3 weeks and still be competitive. But if you are in a super competitive race environment, you are running new sets of tires regardless of whether or not it is foam or rubber.
So, it's $30 for a set of Take-Offs or $30 for a set of foams (assuming good pricing on both). They last just about as long in either case. So the variable becomes the expense of the tire truer. Now take into account that at MANY tracks, there is not as much traction as Trackside. So Take-Off tires do not work as well as, say, Sorex tires. So the fast guys are not just putting on a new set of tires, they are building up a new set of Sorex tires with the right insert. So now if you want to be as competitive, you are spending $45-$50 for tires, wheels and inserts each time. Ouch.
I know what you're going to say: "I didn't put a new set of tires on every 2-3 weeks and I was fine." Maybe you were. But were you competing directly against the fastest guys at the track? Nope.
Based on all of that, I think either side of the "I run foam/rubber because it costs less" is just plain wrong. They cost about the same. Besides, if you think you race regularly in this hobby without spending money, then man, you need to do a serious reality check. It's expensive.
01-22-2004, 02:46 PM
#334
Foam vs Rubber
Actually, I think the key point is that there does not need to be an us vs. them situation at all.
Everyone races in the class that they are in for one reason or another. That is why there are different cars and different classes.
A racer may choose to race rubber because they don't have the talent or put in the time on the car setup as do the better racers. Because of the situation, running foams may be a killer expense because every time the car hits the track they take a chunk out of the tire or maybe the speed is too much and parts get broken.
A racer may choose to run foam because that is where the best competition is and they want to run with the "fast" guys.
Whatever class, the more racers, the better for the track and for us. Sometimes I just don't get these arguements so, maybe I am just way off base.
All I want to do is be fast enough to race Troy, and now I find out that he is slow
, I need a nap!
I think there is enough track for all of us...see you there.
Everyone races in the class that they are in for one reason or another. That is why there are different cars and different classes.
A racer may choose to race rubber because they don't have the talent or put in the time on the car setup as do the better racers. Because of the situation, running foams may be a killer expense because every time the car hits the track they take a chunk out of the tire or maybe the speed is too much and parts get broken.
A racer may choose to run foam because that is where the best competition is and they want to run with the "fast" guys.
Whatever class, the more racers, the better for the track and for us. Sometimes I just don't get these arguements so, maybe I am just way off base.
All I want to do is be fast enough to race Troy, and now I find out that he is slow
, I need a nap!I think there is enough track for all of us...see you there.
Last edited by jw; 01-22-2004 at 05:09 PM.
01-22-2004, 03:26 PM
#335
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
1. Foam equals fast, and fast equals FUN!!! Foam on asphalt is an absolute blast!!
2. Rubber tires on every surface suck in my opinion. If I wanna slide around and WAIT for my car to hook up I'll run dirt. Of course on a good blue groove track the dirt car won't even slide around.
3. As far as rubber being good for the hobby I disagree. I see the argument of speeds being too great on foams has been made, and I can't recall the last time I heard someone say they were quitting because their car was TOO FAST.
4. I've seen a lot of people quit because they couldn't get their car set-up, and therefore had trouble driving it.
5. I contend that not only are FOAMS cheaper, but they make set-up easier for newbie’s. Your set-up doesn't have to be dead-on to be drivable with foams. I also argue that FOAMS make for way better racing. Traction+Rip=Big Fun
No Traction+Rip=broken car=frustrated beginner.
1. Foam equals fast, and fast equals FUN!!! Foam on asphalt is an absolute blast!!
2. Rubber tires on every surface suck in my opinion. If I wanna slide around and WAIT for my car to hook up I'll run dirt. Of course on a good blue groove track the dirt car won't even slide around.
3. As far as rubber being good for the hobby I disagree. I see the argument of speeds being too great on foams has been made, and I can't recall the last time I heard someone say they were quitting because their car was TOO FAST.
4. I've seen a lot of people quit because they couldn't get their car set-up, and therefore had trouble driving it.
5. I contend that not only are FOAMS cheaper, but they make set-up easier for newbie’s. Your set-up doesn't have to be dead-on to be drivable with foams. I also argue that FOAMS make for way better racing. Traction+Rip=Big Fun
No Traction+Rip=broken car=frustrated beginner.
2. All I race is asphalt so it’s no sweat to get my car dialed on rubber. Setting up for foam or rubber is equally hard for different reasons. On rubber you try to get your car stuck so it’s fast. On foam you try to free your car up (unstick it) to make it fast.
3. If fast it better why don’t we race 1/10th pan cars? Mod sedans look like snails compared to a RC10L2 with an 8x1 and 3300's. Ask any factory driver that ran back then what they though about running pan cars and they will all say the same thing. They were just stupid fast. They were so fast that a bad bump on the track or a wall tap would launch them 10 feet in the air. Forget about racing side by side or avoiding a dead car. If you hit a car or the track you would rip an axle, t-bar or front suspension off the car. It’s was fun to go that fast but it was no fun to race other cars at that speed. That was the end of 1/10th scale.
4. The same guy would quit on foams because his car was too stuck and was too slow. Some people just don’t have the mechanical aptitude to do this hobby. You have to live for the challenge of making things work.
5. You thing foams are easy to set up...LOL! Come to the Snowbirds and watch some of the lower sedan mains. Tell those guys it easy. When they aren’t traction rolling they are chattering all over the place.
Every run they go back to the Trinity booth to replace a chunk pair of tires. Does that sound cheap? Hey when I crash, I crash hard and I’ve never chunked a rubber tire!
So a foam newbie pulls his car off the track after 2 minutes of traction rolling and finds the local fast guy for help. One look at the car and he's told to burn off 75% of that $22 set of tire he just got. Also go back to answer 1 and change you car's gear ratio, droop, camber and ride height because you tires are 2.27" now not 2.5".
He's told that they are only good for 4 runs before they get too sticky (4 according to Josh Cyrul, 1 run according to Paul Lemieux) even if he cleans them with lighter fluid or motor spray.
So buy 3 more set so he can practice, qualify and race.
But it’s all good as deep in his heart he just knows foam is cheaper........
01-22-2004, 03:52 PM
#336
JW - I agree. My problem is with the direction this hobby, my industry will go if decisions are made by uninformed racers/consumers.
In late 2002 ROAR had a vote that made running foams on sedans legal for the first time. Depending on who you ask between 160-260 ROAR members (out of 5500 at that time) voted and made the entire country change.
To this day if you walk into any carpet track in the US it is more likely you will find most racers there on rubber rather than foam. The only places on earth where foam is used on sedans regularly is in the Midwest and Northeastern US. Guess where most of the yea votes came from in the 2002 tire vote....
If we switch to foam on all surfaces in 2 years sedans will look nothing like they do now. We wont need 10mm of suspension travel, large volume shocks or all the current setting options. We will have 4wd independant suspension pan cars with leaf springs like the front of the CEFX C12 and damper tubes instead of shocks.
R/C Cars will no longer resemble real cars...car will be MUCH faster in all classes....brushless motors get pushed to the limits....battery have to be unreal to keep up with the other racers...bodies warp into unrecognizable shapes (this is happening in 1/12th right now)... new racers wont be able to relate to the new cars/bodies....racing on road declines to where it was before sedans came out....DEAD.
We all need to think ahead, look at what decisions today might effect in the future.
In late 2002 ROAR had a vote that made running foams on sedans legal for the first time. Depending on who you ask between 160-260 ROAR members (out of 5500 at that time) voted and made the entire country change.
To this day if you walk into any carpet track in the US it is more likely you will find most racers there on rubber rather than foam. The only places on earth where foam is used on sedans regularly is in the Midwest and Northeastern US. Guess where most of the yea votes came from in the 2002 tire vote....
If we switch to foam on all surfaces in 2 years sedans will look nothing like they do now. We wont need 10mm of suspension travel, large volume shocks or all the current setting options. We will have 4wd independant suspension pan cars with leaf springs like the front of the CEFX C12 and damper tubes instead of shocks.
R/C Cars will no longer resemble real cars...car will be MUCH faster in all classes....brushless motors get pushed to the limits....battery have to be unreal to keep up with the other racers...bodies warp into unrecognizable shapes (this is happening in 1/12th right now)... new racers wont be able to relate to the new cars/bodies....racing on road declines to where it was before sedans came out....DEAD.
We all need to think ahead, look at what decisions today might effect in the future.
01-22-2004, 03:56 PM
#337
Tech Champion
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Foams Vs. Rubbers
Ok from the club level racers stand point Rubbers will be cheaper b/c they can run the same set of tires for a month or two.....but they are not running with the fast guys. If they are just starting out they are not going to be on pace no matter what tires they have on the car. It takes practice you cant just walk up and buy a car and go beat the likes of Kinwald or Josh.....that's never going to happen.
Now from the fast local racer that can place in the top 20 at a national type race.....foams are cheaper. Because he's not going to be hitting everything in site so he wont chunk tires as much plus they are fast for the whole life span of the tire not just 1 or 2 runs.....rubber tires are only good for that many runs...if you think they are good past that then you are really fooling yourself.
Now at a big event you are going to need to do what ever it takes to win. And if that's running fresh tires every run then you have to do it....no matter if its foams or rubbers. So at a national race they are the same cost when the rubber tire is a premount...if its a rubber tire race that is an open tire race then foams are way cheaper b/c you will not need a bunch of tires to try inserts and to try rims.....you just get the amount of foam tires you need and your done.
And the guys that are in the lower mains at a national type race that are chunking tires left and right are the same guys that say they can get a month on a set of rubber tires......so where do they fit in to this picture....they are just club racers and are not competitive at the top end of the class.
The whole thing of which is cheaper it all depends on the type of racing and the caliber of the driver.
Now from the fast local racer that can place in the top 20 at a national type race.....foams are cheaper. Because he's not going to be hitting everything in site so he wont chunk tires as much plus they are fast for the whole life span of the tire not just 1 or 2 runs.....rubber tires are only good for that many runs...if you think they are good past that then you are really fooling yourself.
Now at a big event you are going to need to do what ever it takes to win. And if that's running fresh tires every run then you have to do it....no matter if its foams or rubbers. So at a national race they are the same cost when the rubber tire is a premount...if its a rubber tire race that is an open tire race then foams are way cheaper b/c you will not need a bunch of tires to try inserts and to try rims.....you just get the amount of foam tires you need and your done.
And the guys that are in the lower mains at a national type race that are chunking tires left and right are the same guys that say they can get a month on a set of rubber tires......so where do they fit in to this picture....they are just club racers and are not competitive at the top end of the class.
The whole thing of which is cheaper it all depends on the type of racing and the caliber of the driver.
01-22-2004, 04:11 PM
#338
Less than 2% of sedan racers in a nation wide poll by a major magazine plan on attending a national/major race in 2004.
All manufacturers balance the needs of the mass market with the needs of the top racers. The problem is that the market follows the racers for better or worse.
We want to give you what you want while trying to prevent you from going down a path that may be destructive to the health of the hobby and thus the industry.
Foams on asphalt are commonly belived to be a bad path.
Depending on how brave a certain company is a very controversial turn onto the right path will happen this year.
All manufacturers balance the needs of the mass market with the needs of the top racers. The problem is that the market follows the racers for better or worse.
We want to give you what you want while trying to prevent you from going down a path that may be destructive to the health of the hobby and thus the industry.
Foams on asphalt are commonly belived to be a bad path.
Depending on how brave a certain company is a very controversial turn onto the right path will happen this year.
01-22-2004, 04:59 PM
#339
R/C Tech Founder
Thread Starter
jw: I do agree with you, my post was really just to touch on the fact that the "I don't run this or that because this or that is cheaper" is not really the best argument. There are a lot of other compelling reasons to run rubber over foam but I just don't think cost for the racer is the major one.
Kevin: Amen... especially the last sentence.
Adrian: You touched on some of the most important issues there, namely the lack of voting in ROAR and the high learning curve for foam tires. When novice and intermediate classes start moving to foam tires, I think we're all in a lot of trouble. The focus should, in my opinion, always be on growing the hobby. If it isn't, why bother with sanctioning bodies and all the rest?
Although, the 2% is not quite what Kevin was talking about, I think. I know many people who don't go to big races but still slap on a new set of tires every week and are at the top of their local club track. I'm sure it's still a small percentage, but probably not quite that small.
Kevin: Amen... especially the last sentence.
Adrian: You touched on some of the most important issues there, namely the lack of voting in ROAR and the high learning curve for foam tires. When novice and intermediate classes start moving to foam tires, I think we're all in a lot of trouble. The focus should, in my opinion, always be on growing the hobby. If it isn't, why bother with sanctioning bodies and all the rest?
Although, the 2% is not quite what Kevin was talking about, I think. I know many people who don't go to big races but still slap on a new set of tires every week and are at the top of their local club track. I'm sure it's still a small percentage, but probably not quite that small.
01-22-2004, 05:20 PM
#340
Re: Foams Vs. Rubbers
Originally posted by Kevin K
The whole thing of which is cheaper it all depends on the type of racing and the caliber of the driver.
The whole thing of which is cheaper it all depends on the type of racing and the caliber of the driver.
I as a local racer want to be able to run rubber tire because it is cheaper for me. I have no dreams of winning the A main in a national race or even on a Tuesday night. I just want to race in an economic (for me) class against good competition. If that means racing side by side in the B or C Main for the win, I will be happy. I think there are a lot of racers in my situation.
The fast tires and fast cars are great for the fast guys and they are some of the best races to watch. But, there always will be a need for a class in between the sportsman and the "fast" guys.
PS-Ok, so I still want to beat "Half Throttle" Troy in the A main...gotta have one dream.
01-22-2004, 05:31 PM
#341
Re: Re: Foams Vs. Rubbers
Originally posted by jw
Shane: You are correct, Kevin is exactly right.
I as a local racer want to be able to run rubber tire because it is cheaper for me. I have no dreams of winning the A main in a national race or even on a Tuesday night. I just want to race in an economic (for me) class against good competition. If that means racing side by side in the B or C Main for the win, I will be happy. I think there are a lot of racers in my situation.
The fast tires and fast cars are great for the fast guys and they are some of the best races to watch. But, there always will be a need for a class in between the sportsman and the "fast" guys.
PS-Ok, so I still want to beat "Half Throttle" Troy in the A main...gotta have one dream.
Shane: You are correct, Kevin is exactly right.
I as a local racer want to be able to run rubber tire because it is cheaper for me. I have no dreams of winning the A main in a national race or even on a Tuesday night. I just want to race in an economic (for me) class against good competition. If that means racing side by side in the B or C Main for the win, I will be happy. I think there are a lot of racers in my situation.
The fast tires and fast cars are great for the fast guys and they are some of the best races to watch. But, there always will be a need for a class in between the sportsman and the "fast" guys.
PS-Ok, so I still want to beat "Half Throttle" Troy in the A main...gotta have one dream.
I do agree on the "Open tire races", that those are expensive. There is just to much to play with, which is why I'm all for control tire rubber races. Plus, the pre-mounts are so much cheaper.
01-22-2004, 05:51 PM
#343
How did this thread turn into rubber vs. foam anyway?
I agree with Cory, rubber for asphalt and foams for carpet.
I agree with Cory, rubber for asphalt and foams for carpet.
01-22-2004, 05:54 PM
#344
Yikes, I guess Stephen and I will keep our mouths shut next time, even if it is a joke! 
My 2 cents....
Foam tires are definitely faster. To have a good car in foam tire requires extensive chassis setup knowledge, or someone who has that knowledge to help you.
Regardless of foam or rubber, to go fast you will need to spend a good chunk of money. Like Kevin said, at a big race, to go fast on rubber tires requires a new set every one to two runs. The same goes with foam tire. And with the costs of tires such as the premounted Takeoff's, the prices come out about the same.
Adrian, I seriously doubt things such as that will happen. If it did, the cars you speak of wouldn't be touring cars. Yeah 12th scale bodies have gotten a little disproportionate (but they look very cool), but the basic design of a 12th scale has really not changed over the years, just some tweaks to it.
I think each kind of tire has its own disadvantages and advantages. You can't chunk rubber tires, for a club racer, they last a good long time, and it is more of a challenge to drive, which makes it a lot of fun. Only disadvantage i see is their GOOD traction lifespan is very short and they have less traction overall than foams. Foams offer a ton of traction, are easy to drive with a good setup, and are faster. However, you can chunk foams if you hit stuff, and the tires do wear down over time.
Myself, I'm taking a small break from foams for a couple weeks and running some Rubba Tiya on carpet. I look at it this way, I have 2 months till the next race I attend, I have time to have some fun.
And to think all this discussion was started over a true statement...
My 2 cents....
Foam tires are definitely faster. To have a good car in foam tire requires extensive chassis setup knowledge, or someone who has that knowledge to help you.
Regardless of foam or rubber, to go fast you will need to spend a good chunk of money. Like Kevin said, at a big race, to go fast on rubber tires requires a new set every one to two runs. The same goes with foam tire. And with the costs of tires such as the premounted Takeoff's, the prices come out about the same.
Adrian, I seriously doubt things such as that will happen. If it did, the cars you speak of wouldn't be touring cars. Yeah 12th scale bodies have gotten a little disproportionate (but they look very cool), but the basic design of a 12th scale has really not changed over the years, just some tweaks to it.
I think each kind of tire has its own disadvantages and advantages. You can't chunk rubber tires, for a club racer, they last a good long time, and it is more of a challenge to drive, which makes it a lot of fun. Only disadvantage i see is their GOOD traction lifespan is very short and they have less traction overall than foams. Foams offer a ton of traction, are easy to drive with a good setup, and are faster. However, you can chunk foams if you hit stuff, and the tires do wear down over time.
Myself, I'm taking a small break from foams for a couple weeks and running some Rubba Tiya on carpet
. I look at it this way, I have 2 months till the next race I attend, I have time to have some fun. And to think all this discussion was started over a true statement...
01-22-2004, 06:04 PM
#345
I think to an extent, hobby shops want to see more guys running foam from a profit standpoint. A guy walks into shop A and buys a set of 27's for $30. This racer is able to get 6-weeks out of running out of them before he decides he'd be faster on a new set.
The same racer decides he is going to go foam racing, and walks into the same shop and buys a set of foams for (although I haven't seen them this cheap) $30. Now he also wants a tire truer, so he breaks open his wallet again and spends $150-200 on that. He goes out and runs a week, chunks a tire. Well, he needs to go into the shop and spend $15 for 2 tires. THose last him 2 weeks untill the tires wear down too far and he needs to buy a new set of 4. $30. second run, he cracks a rim. $15 more. you get the point. Foam tire racing has more of a returnable and more frequent investment then foam does, which make the shop owner more money, so which would he push? I know which I would, and it wouldn't be rubber.
The other rediculous thing people complain about is the cost of experimenting with inserts. Unless you go to a race where it's a control tire you've never used, that shouldn't be an issue. most of us have been doing this long enough that while yes, you may need a set or two to experiment with, but most of us hit the track with an idea of what insert to run.
The same racer decides he is going to go foam racing, and walks into the same shop and buys a set of foams for (although I haven't seen them this cheap) $30. Now he also wants a tire truer, so he breaks open his wallet again and spends $150-200 on that. He goes out and runs a week, chunks a tire. Well, he needs to go into the shop and spend $15 for 2 tires. THose last him 2 weeks untill the tires wear down too far and he needs to buy a new set of 4. $30. second run, he cracks a rim. $15 more. you get the point. Foam tire racing has more of a returnable and more frequent investment then foam does, which make the shop owner more money, so which would he push? I know which I would, and it wouldn't be rubber.
The other rediculous thing people complain about is the cost of experimenting with inserts. Unless you go to a race where it's a control tire you've never used, that shouldn't be an issue. most of us have been doing this long enough that while yes, you may need a set or two to experiment with, but most of us hit the track with an idea of what insert to run.