The reason for the lack of mod drivers...
06-18-2009, 07:05 PM
#226
I have been following this thread as it is very interesting to a new TC racer. I think there may be more to the 'track' factor for us average Joe's. I am just a complete noob, just getting started in TC racing (17.5 rookie). I have been to several local events - which in my geo area are all parking lots with a track 'setup' on it - and one of the first things I thought was, wow, the track seems kinda small for how fast I have seen these mod cars go. You know, those videos you find online that show some huge European track all perfect and dedicated to the sport - beautiful! Watching 13.5 or 10.5 run on the local small tracks, they still seem still WAY too fast - bumping into corner dots, broken parts on expensive cars, etc.
The availability of good (dedicated) tracks may have more to do with the development of really skilled and dedicated drivers. You can only do so much on a parking lot and limited practice time. I can say if I had really nice and large tracks that were open for practice regularly, not just the hours before a race on weekend only, you betcha I could get more into it. For now, two times a month with paractice and racing combined. I'll never get to mod level with that kind of commitment
Second observation - The future TC as an RC hobby:
TC needs more new blood to get hooked and carry the torch. I always drive my TC around out front and try to get the teens in the hood interested in RC and TC. The young folks in my area are not remotely interested - they would rather play video games. THey are only impressed with my OS .28 powered Savage that jumps the bike ramps and wheelies on command. Off road is the rage around my place. The RC media is also on the off road band wagon. I have subs for two major mags and I PRAY for a on-road article every other issue. I meant to sell some TC's, but instead have a hood full of Tmax's, Revo's, and Stampedes. Some of those kids now go to the off road race track.
Parting thought (if anyone gets this far in my rant) If I were to get into off road racing, there are at least two or three full sized dedicated tracks that I can go practice during the week several days, hone my skills, give me time to fix and adjust and retest, before race day. I wish TC had such track offerings in my area....
Before anyone rolls their eyes at some of this, think not about you and the current dirvers getting more into mod, think about new people and generating interest - ASPIRE to be a mod driver. The dollars spent on this are descretionary and people do have other RC hobby alternatives. The trick is to get'm hooked and spending money on TC - not off road.
Just an observation from a New Person getting into this - calling it as I see it from my limited exposure so far.......
The availability of good (dedicated) tracks may have more to do with the development of really skilled and dedicated drivers. You can only do so much on a parking lot and limited practice time. I can say if I had really nice and large tracks that were open for practice regularly, not just the hours before a race on weekend only, you betcha I could get more into it. For now, two times a month with paractice and racing combined. I'll never get to mod level with that kind of commitment
Second observation - The future TC as an RC hobby:
TC needs more new blood to get hooked and carry the torch. I always drive my TC around out front and try to get the teens in the hood interested in RC and TC. The young folks in my area are not remotely interested - they would rather play video games. THey are only impressed with my OS .28 powered Savage that jumps the bike ramps and wheelies on command. Off road is the rage around my place. The RC media is also on the off road band wagon. I have subs for two major mags and I PRAY for a on-road article every other issue. I meant to sell some TC's, but instead have a hood full of Tmax's, Revo's, and Stampedes. Some of those kids now go to the off road race track.
Parting thought (if anyone gets this far in my rant) If I were to get into off road racing, there are at least two or three full sized dedicated tracks that I can go practice during the week several days, hone my skills, give me time to fix and adjust and retest, before race day. I wish TC had such track offerings in my area....
Before anyone rolls their eyes at some of this, think not about you and the current dirvers getting more into mod, think about new people and generating interest - ASPIRE to be a mod driver. The dollars spent on this are descretionary and people do have other RC hobby alternatives. The trick is to get'm hooked and spending money on TC - not off road.
Just an observation from a New Person getting into this - calling it as I see it from my limited exposure so far.......
06-18-2009, 07:16 PM
#227
since most people who are replying to this thread run MOD, can any1 tell me what is a good gear ratio to run for 17t mod motor.
internal ratio is 2.0
thanks,
internal ratio is 2.0
thanks,
06-18-2009, 07:16 PM
#228
Jeez,
Simple... Slow the cars down so they are controllable by more then the top 10% of the drivers... But the hardheaded racers have an excuse for everything. Racing is better, when the cars are more controllable, and people have more fun with less frustration, as the setup are easier...
Slow them across the board.... 3 Motor winds for 3 classes.
21.5 - Entry level
13.5 - For Expert Level
10.5 for Mod... Pro Level
Call it day...
Let the Pros get paid... so people will WANT to race Pro... and you have to earn the right to run it...
Simple... Slow the cars down so they are controllable by more then the top 10% of the drivers... But the hardheaded racers have an excuse for everything. Racing is better, when the cars are more controllable, and people have more fun with less frustration, as the setup are easier...
Slow them across the board.... 3 Motor winds for 3 classes.
21.5 - Entry level
13.5 - For Expert Level
10.5 for Mod... Pro Level
Call it day...
Let the Pros get paid... so people will WANT to race Pro... and you have to earn the right to run it...
06-18-2009, 07:46 PM
#230
Quote:
Originally Posted by jopor
I´m not that stupid to run mod on a track with 392 m2 our smallest track in Portugal is 40m x 20m is 186m long and it´s the same size of worlds track on Thailand. (Rheinard run 6cells with 4.0T motor).His brother said that small track in Portugal was a large track to him so for me it was very funny.
Your problem is that you run on very small tracks, that tracks are good for Mabuchi not for today´s motors. So that´s why everyone there runs stock.
Try to make a really 1/10 track, don´t we run tenth scale why tracks aren´t that 1/10 size you´re trying to use a 1/10th on a 1/18 or 1/24th track.
So what you want ? move to larger tracks.
Last weekend we were at the worlds 1/10 200mm track for a round of our National Championship if you think it´s 3 cars wide, it´s up to you.
The problem is not the width of the track but is perimeter if you have tracks about 100m or 150m what you want?
Make a small exercise F1 circuit is about 4 km long so 1/10 should be about 400m
I know most of the tracks were made when you used NICAD and Mabuchi so that´s why they are so small, but now you don´t have to run mod on that try larger one (nitro) and let smallest for stock, and 10.5 maybe too fast even fotr that ones.
Originally Posted by jopor
I´m not that stupid to run mod on a track with 392 m2 our smallest track in Portugal is 40m x 20m is 186m long and it´s the same size of worlds track on Thailand. (Rheinard run 6cells with 4.0T motor).His brother said that small track in Portugal was a large track to him so for me it was very funny.
Your problem is that you run on very small tracks, that tracks are good for Mabuchi not for today´s motors. So that´s why everyone there runs stock.
Try to make a really 1/10 track, don´t we run tenth scale why tracks aren´t that 1/10 size you´re trying to use a 1/10th on a 1/18 or 1/24th track.
So what you want ? move to larger tracks.
Last weekend we were at the worlds 1/10 200mm track for a round of our National Championship if you think it´s 3 cars wide, it´s up to you.
The problem is not the width of the track but is perimeter if you have tracks about 100m or 150m what you want?
Make a small exercise F1 circuit is about 4 km long so 1/10 should be about 400m
I know most of the tracks were made when you used NICAD and Mabuchi so that´s why they are so small, but now you don´t have to run mod on that try larger one (nitro) and let smallest for stock, and 10.5 maybe too fast even fotr that ones.
I was only going by what your said, YOU said you ran on 1/10 scale tracks, well most tracks are only 3-4 cars wide, so....... thats why the question, apparently 1/10 length and 1/10 width don't go hand and hand
06-18-2009, 08:29 PM
#232
Tech Rookie
A lot the newer and/or stock racers out there might not know this but we have had motor limits in modified before, and they didn't really work.
12 Turn limit with brushed modified. People just ended up timing/gearing them until they were not that far off the pace of a 7 turn motor.
I'm sure the same thing would happen again now. Mod racers would be forced to go out and buy new ESC's made for stock racing with aggressive timing profiles, then push the limits to be competitive.
As for mod being a motor as slow as 10.5? Why even bother. Might as well just have 1 class... Stock.
12 Turn limit with brushed modified. People just ended up timing/gearing them until they were not that far off the pace of a 7 turn motor.
I'm sure the same thing would happen again now. Mod racers would be forced to go out and buy new ESC's made for stock racing with aggressive timing profiles, then push the limits to be competitive.
As for mod being a motor as slow as 10.5? Why even bother. Might as well just have 1 class... Stock.
06-18-2009, 08:56 PM
#233
says the guy that the last time he drove a mod sedan put peter robinson in the pipe as he was about to make a move on barry baker. way, way way back in 2005 when 13.5 could have passed as mod
and because of his internet antics doesn't have a local place to run mod sedan even if he ran out of excuses not to
true that homie
06-18-2009, 09:35 PM
#234
Typical comments.. the same thinking that will leave this sector of the hobby as a footnote.
Just because a suggestion to make it slower is made..people get all up in arms... Slower does not mean SLOW.
So go ahead... keep it ballistic... and the same 15 guys will race it... Or make it REALISTIC and controllable, pay the pros, and the opportunity for growth may come back.
Gotta slow it down one way or another, Obviously we are all enamoured with Lipo's, so lets have another suggestion.
Just because a suggestion to make it slower is made..people get all up in arms... Slower does not mean SLOW.
So go ahead... keep it ballistic... and the same 15 guys will race it... Or make it REALISTIC and controllable, pay the pros, and the opportunity for growth may come back.
Gotta slow it down one way or another, Obviously we are all enamoured with Lipo's, so lets have another suggestion.
06-18-2009, 09:36 PM
#235
7.5 MOD maximum... or minimum.. however you want to look at it.
Either way, but don't get rid of the lower winds just yet. 10.5 1 cell in a 12th car should be plenty fast. No one here cares how much macho you can or cant handle for the 3 minutes before you destroy any car.... especially someone else's. My 13.5 in a TC is as fast as the 10.5 was only a year ago. What next ?
Either way, but don't get rid of the lower winds just yet. 10.5 1 cell in a 12th car should be plenty fast. No one here cares how much macho you can or cant handle for the 3 minutes before you destroy any car.... especially someone else's. My 13.5 in a TC is as fast as the 10.5 was only a year ago. What next ?
06-18-2009, 10:45 PM
#236
I have been following this thread as it is very interesting to a new TC racer. I think there may be more to the 'track' factor for us average Joe's.
......
Just an observation from a New Person getting into this - calling it as I see it from my limited exposure so far.......
......
Just an observation from a New Person getting into this - calling it as I see it from my limited exposure so far.......
You have correctly identified the core problem of the sport which stems from the difficulty of having tracks for on road. Unfortunately on road is going to lose hands down every time to off road simply because of the lower requirements when setting up an off road track. Off road cars are also a lot easier to setup tune and mantain, so again on road is on the losing end. Add to this the fact that most off road cars need not be top end to be able to compete at decent levels and it becomes clear why most shops will always skew their stocks toward the off road segment rather then on road. Just visit you local shop and compare the shelf space dedicated to off road to that dedicated to on road.
Back to on road, think of the newbie taking their brand new car to the local track. They spent what is these days rather serious money (about 500$ at least for a cheap but decent kit like those offerred by Tamiya and some decent electronics, batteries and chargers/power source) only to find out that they can't even keep the car on the track. This is very similar to kids who go to uni only to drop out in droves after the first fortnight when they realise how much work they have ahead. Very few newcomers then make it past their first racing season.
Moving up through the ranks. I have competed at my club for a while before I was moved up without knowing it. all of a sudden I found I had to spend more money on motors, lathe, and so on. I didn't have a problem with that and I could afford it, so went straight in. Results were getting better and I even went as far as winning some of the stock races, but I realised I was spending more time cutting comms, tunning motors and doing maintenance on my cars than racing. I have learend a lot of new skills and I am happy I did it. My driving became a lot better and it was obvious that my cars could keep up easily with the fastest cars on the track. My skill was getting there too as my results demonstrated. But this was not what I wanted. I found I was spending about 400$ on a new car and then about 400$ on motors. I realised as well that I could only have one or two cars at the most that I could keep up for racing at one time so all the others were gathering dust on the shelves (I still have an Xray 2007 in the box). I had then to take a good look at what I wanted and realised I prefer buying more cars then more motors and speedos/electronics so I decided to move back to silvercan/sports tuned black can. Our track doesn't favour speed either, so there was not much point to staying in a faster class (I sometimes score more laps in 540 than people in stock (27 turn)). This allowed me to take to the track more of my cars and spend more time racing instead of worrying about the electronics and so on. This I think is the best way to build up your skill rather than quickly blasting through the classes only to end up in mod with a thin veneer of knowledge about tunning/driving. As a result of this, most mod drivers' driving is a point and shoot technique which I am particularly displeased with. Very few people (I think we have about three in our club) actually drive their cars whilst most just blast around as if in a computer game (again, this is partly due to the small twisty track, not necessarily due to lack of skill). It looks then that the track imposes a certain driving style which looks a lot less like driving and more like playing computer games. This is I think why a lot of drivers just gave up mod at our track.
06-18-2009, 10:48 PM
#237
Tech Master
iTrader: (72)
I just can't believe what I'm reading.
Every form of real motorsports has a class of cars that are way overpowered, F1, Motogp, Lemans, even supercross. It's that way for a reason, to seperate the men from the boys.
In 17.5 or 13.5 you come out of a corner and just mash the throttle. Wow, fun. In mod the way the throttle is applied is all part of a fast lap time. It adds another dimension to the racing and that's why I like it. Offroad guys have to use throttle control, why would anyone want to take that away from onroad?
There are a lot of reasons why good drivers don't move up to mod; too expensive, or they want to race what they're friends race, or want to stay in a class where they know they can win instead of moving up and losing. That's fine, people should race what they like, but for people to suggest that modified is too fast(probably because they suck at it) is truly ridiculous. It should be hard, frustrating, and fast, it's the highest level of tc racing. The highest level of anything is neither cheap or easy. Flame away...
Every form of real motorsports has a class of cars that are way overpowered, F1, Motogp, Lemans, even supercross. It's that way for a reason, to seperate the men from the boys.
In 17.5 or 13.5 you come out of a corner and just mash the throttle. Wow, fun. In mod the way the throttle is applied is all part of a fast lap time. It adds another dimension to the racing and that's why I like it. Offroad guys have to use throttle control, why would anyone want to take that away from onroad?
There are a lot of reasons why good drivers don't move up to mod; too expensive, or they want to race what they're friends race, or want to stay in a class where they know they can win instead of moving up and losing. That's fine, people should race what they like, but for people to suggest that modified is too fast(probably because they suck at it) is truly ridiculous. It should be hard, frustrating, and fast, it's the highest level of tc racing. The highest level of anything is neither cheap or easy. Flame away...
06-18-2009, 11:09 PM
#238
Tech Addict
Gidday,
I am from New Zealand and race Touring Modified. Our nationals had something like 25 entrants in Touring Modified and about 120 entries over all the classes raced at the nationals. We are only a small country (4 million) and don't have the level of competition that you guys have. There are very few sponsored drivers. I think some of the reason that people don't enter Touring Modified is because they feel they can never compete against the pro drivers so will not move up.
I think people have to be encouraged to race this class even if they are not the worlds best drivers. Once you get a few drivers of similar level racing, it really doesn't matter if they are 2 laps slower than the pro guys.
happy racing
Mike
I am from New Zealand and race Touring Modified. Our nationals had something like 25 entrants in Touring Modified and about 120 entries over all the classes raced at the nationals. We are only a small country (4 million) and don't have the level of competition that you guys have. There are very few sponsored drivers. I think some of the reason that people don't enter Touring Modified is because they feel they can never compete against the pro drivers so will not move up.
I think people have to be encouraged to race this class even if they are not the worlds best drivers. Once you get a few drivers of similar level racing, it really doesn't matter if they are 2 laps slower than the pro guys.
happy racing
Mike
06-19-2009, 02:23 AM
#239
I think the simple matter of fact is that mod is just too fast these days for even the most seasoned racer who enjoys 10.5 at his local club, and mod is only usually supported by a majority of sponsored, hardcore racers.
Going back to 2001, at the Reedy Race, Snetterton UK....
I was lucky enough to be at and participate in this race. There was a spec 12t motor that was incredibly fast (I had been racing for about 7 years at that point) and saw the likes of David Spashett and a lot of other big names flying round the track at (was then, and for me still is now) rocket speed.
In the end, I only made the J final, and knew if I were to continue this kind of racing, it would take skill, money and a lot of time....
Luckily I had a good mentor with a lot of equipment that he just literally threw at me, but some people don't get that chance in r/c.
Fast forward 8 years.....
Brushless motors are much much quicker, added to that, the cell voltage/capacity is crazy, making wheel spin even more apparent, car setup more important than ever and car wear even more accelerated.
Is it any suprise people are getting more set in their ways as to what motor they like to use?
1) They have found their peak skill level, or risk an inconsistant and frustrating day learning setup and throttle control.
2) They dont want to be spending $XX each time to try a different motor class, not forgetting the tyres and car wear and tear....
Sponsored racers in "STOCK" (in any form of racing/motorsport) will always exist, so it is something some people will need to learn how to deal with in their own ways.
-----------
(Purely IMHO) A sponsored racers view point of racing against anyone in any class is that they will enter the class if the rules allow them to.
If the club is big and established enough, there will be enough sponsored and non sponsored people attending to allow both types of racer the chance to be in their own group, or mingle if they choose/are allowed to by the club rules.
From another view point, I get bored of the "them and us" attitude that the sponsored and non sponsored racers can have of each other, we are in this together....
Luckily though, for now I race at a club where everyone gets on with each other, I set the fastest lap of the night a few weeks ago, a mere 1/10th of a second faster than someone who wasn't sponsored....
See, sometimes we get involved in the politics of racing to much that we just don't really see how close the racing really is.
The faster the class, and the bigger the event (and the nerves to go with it!), the more chance there is of crashes, grip roll with carrying too much speed,... and the time gap between 1st and last getting bigger. Winning this kind of a meeting is called.... skill.
If you're too slow....
1) you've just not got the right motor/gearing, or
2) you're not carrying enough corner speed (setup issue / worn/wrong tyres) or...
3) Or you just can't race fast!
So not a matter of having sponsorship, it just helps!
Apologies for going off topic...
Going back to 2001, at the Reedy Race, Snetterton UK....
I was lucky enough to be at and participate in this race. There was a spec 12t motor that was incredibly fast (I had been racing for about 7 years at that point) and saw the likes of David Spashett and a lot of other big names flying round the track at (was then, and for me still is now) rocket speed.
In the end, I only made the J final, and knew if I were to continue this kind of racing, it would take skill, money and a lot of time....
Luckily I had a good mentor with a lot of equipment that he just literally threw at me, but some people don't get that chance in r/c.
Fast forward 8 years.....
Brushless motors are much much quicker, added to that, the cell voltage/capacity is crazy, making wheel spin even more apparent, car setup more important than ever and car wear even more accelerated.
Is it any suprise people are getting more set in their ways as to what motor they like to use?
1) They have found their peak skill level, or risk an inconsistant and frustrating day learning setup and throttle control.
2) They dont want to be spending $XX each time to try a different motor class, not forgetting the tyres and car wear and tear....
Sponsored racers in "STOCK" (in any form of racing/motorsport) will always exist, so it is something some people will need to learn how to deal with in their own ways.
-----------
(Purely IMHO) A sponsored racers view point of racing against anyone in any class is that they will enter the class if the rules allow them to.
If the club is big and established enough, there will be enough sponsored and non sponsored people attending to allow both types of racer the chance to be in their own group, or mingle if they choose/are allowed to by the club rules.
From another view point, I get bored of the "them and us" attitude that the sponsored and non sponsored racers can have of each other, we are in this together....
Luckily though, for now I race at a club where everyone gets on with each other, I set the fastest lap of the night a few weeks ago, a mere 1/10th of a second faster than someone who wasn't sponsored....
See, sometimes we get involved in the politics of racing to much that we just don't really see how close the racing really is.
The faster the class, and the bigger the event (and the nerves to go with it!), the more chance there is of crashes, grip roll with carrying too much speed,... and the time gap between 1st and last getting bigger. Winning this kind of a meeting is called.... skill.
If you're too slow....
1) you've just not got the right motor/gearing, or
2) you're not carrying enough corner speed (setup issue / worn/wrong tyres) or...
3) Or you just can't race fast!
So not a matter of having sponsorship, it just helps!
Apologies for going off topic...
06-19-2009, 02:49 AM
#240
Agreed to a smaller track, it would be senseless. Camarillo, La Mirada, and HT Corona have over a 120' Straight so here in Cali and Mod can be taken advantage of. In a 10 secong lap track...mod would be useless. In a 14-17 second second lap track, Mod would thrive and yes, you would have faster lap times than the 13'5's.
