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Old 02-21-2002, 07:14 AM   #1156
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Slayer
Dr.Diff.....just curious...why do you feel that foams will kill sedan????We have been debating the foam vs. rubber issue..everybody seems happy with rubber...even with the multidude of inserts...but, like foams...once you get the right set up...you just drive.....foams are about 1 maybe 2 laps more than rubber.....i tried foams and they immediatly felt easier to drive...but, as long as everybody is on the same tire????
Foam became my enemy back in the late 1980's early 1990's. I used to run pan cars back then. Each week I would buy new tires only to chunk the sidewalls out after less than 3 minutes into a 4 minute heat. People said to buy a tire truer so that I could cut them down so as not to chunk them. This was imposible as all my spare money was going in to tires. No way to afford a tire truer. Then the Exotic foam came out. When $20 would buy a set of greens it jumped to $30 a pair for purples. To pay that kind of money and then 80% of it thrown away on a tire truer quickly angered me.

Sedans came out [Tamiya TA-01] with rubber tires. They lasted FOREVER and better yet they did not chunk out! A simple phone call and you can find out what compounds and inserts work. True they aren't as fast as foam but you don't have the constant diameter changes that foam has. Beginners find it difficult enough to chase the chassis setup let alone find gearing for tires that continually shrink.

I wish IFMAR would wake up and ban inserts for all scales and classes. That would force tire companies to firm up tires and would limit the high cost high wear tires. I like the Medial Pro idea of built in inserts. Unfortunately the speed genie has been let out and will never go back into its bottle. The price to be paid is lack of newbies. when you ailenate newbies, the class dies out. It happened in 1/10 scale pan car on road and it will happen in sedans now that the foam genie has been set free.

I would also like to see a limit of 12 turns [any wind] for mod classes. By limiting motor technology we can limit battery technology. $100 street price for 6 cells is a bit ridiculous
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Old 02-21-2002, 08:12 AM   #1157
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Dr. Diff,

I haven't completely come to a decision about rubber/foam for lack of experience in the foam classes, but I want to differ with you on the motor limit. For one, by limiting the # of turns, you instantly give the factory guys an advantage because there will always be some motors and batteries that are better than the others and the factory guys will get first pick. You also greatly increase the cost of motors that are tuned to the point where they are actually capable of winning againt the fastest guys out there. And now you are increasing the demand for hotter batteries therefore increasing the price. If you don't believe me, just ask our European racing friends- they hate the 12 turn limit.

I understand where you are coming from and I too wish there were a way to make the playing field a little more even, but like EVERY OTHER FORM of racing (trust me, I know) the guy with the most money can buy himself a better chance of winning.

As far as the insert opinion you gave, I think that a lot of the mystery of inserts and tire compounds for newbies would be greatly relieved if the hobby shop workers and owners would take the time to educate themselves on the subject and the local racing environment. This is why r/c track workers and owners are such good information sources for newbies. Which is even more reason for us to make sure the newbies know to look to the local track/hobby shop owners for their racing needs.

Please note- I'm not arguing with you- just the oppsite- I'm merely sharing my outlook on the subjects you brought up.
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Old 02-21-2002, 09:02 AM   #1158
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrDiff

I would also like to see a limit of 12 turns [any wind] for mod classes. By limiting motor technology we can limit battery technology. $100 street price for 6 cells is a bit ridiculous
DrDiff:

I've read some of your posts during those last days (boys, I can't let you for 4 days without gotting a bunch of posts.... ).

For those who are thinking on gotting a TC3 as exchange for their 'other' cars are much welcome. Driving a tc3 is 'like a religion'.... once you tested, you got in chains with them, specially on stock class, where still clearly rules.

About the foams, I prefeer to not talk, sedans on full scale run with rubber and our cars should run on rubber.

About the 12 turns limit. We 'suffer' them for two years now. My experience with those 'babies' is. Boy! don't desire this, motors wear a lot (more than my old 9x2 and 8x2) and self-destruct them for the amount of punishment that we impose on them (our lap times are improved so much comparing with laps made with 10's and 9's, but is a pain on the wallet). Last season I destroyed 6 motors and worn more than 100 brush sets on 5 races, hard.... very hard but real.

Enforcing a motor limit like we suffer on Europe (some of our chiefs are very very dumb, for saying something 'pretty') enforces racers to be on the hunt for the 'ultimate battery of the week' with 0.002 volts more than the 'previous battery of the week'. This is insane and this can really kill TC. A 10 turn rule is much better than the ridiculous rule that we have on Europe. I envy you with a 10 turn limit rule.
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Old 02-21-2002, 09:05 AM   #1159
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corse-R
About the foams, I prefeer to not talk, sedans on full scale run with rubber and our cars should run on rubber.
Full scale sedans run with the drivers inside, perhaps you think we should try to sit inside our cars?

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Old 02-21-2002, 09:07 AM   #1160
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Default Re: FT or Team stuff truly necessary?

Quote:
Originally posted by DrDiff
HPI seems to have abandoned the Pro3 so now I gotta ask myself, "What do I do?" It seems to me that all one truly needs is the racer kit with threaded shock bodies and lightened diffs. The rest seems to be eye candy.

Any thoughts or am I way out in left field looking for the hocky goal?
Enough about foam tires and motor limits - back to discussing the TC3....stay on target...stay on target...

Dr. Diff - The beauty of the TC3 is that not a single part in the FT-TC3 makes the TC3 any faster. Sure the FT is nice to have, but if you are on a budget and rather spend money on something useful like tires/batteries, the racer kit is it. In order to be completely competitive, you will need the threaded shock bodies, the optional 2 deg castor blocks, the optional F/R arm mounts, and maybe the front 1-way (if that suits your driving style). These parts will give you the ability to tune to any surface. With the exception of the threaded shock bodies, none of these items are included in the FT kit. One more thing, the racer kits have been updated to the lightened diffs!
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Old 02-21-2002, 09:25 AM   #1161
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Actually, the optional front and rear A arm mounts are included in the FT kit.
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Old 02-21-2002, 09:27 AM   #1162
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I got the racer kit and the only upgrades I've bought are springs, rollbars and 2 degree ccaster blocks for some tracks. After about 10 meetings though I found that 2 of my outdrive bearings had failed and the rest were on the way out. The kit included the lightweight outdrives although I don't like the diff action they give.

Associated give great customer support though. I had a problem building it with the transmission being tight. I emailed associated and they had sent me 2 new transmission cases within the day. It turned out that the problem was due to a seal on one bearing which I had caught the edge of with a knife getting trapped between the housing and the bearing. Entirely my own fault.

When I got a warped transmission housing in a Schumacher kit they took a month (and 3 emails) to get back to me and then sent me a transmission housing with no mounting holes drilled in it. After another 3 weeks they then wanted me to send my whole transmission back. By this stage I had just bought another transmission case.
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Old 02-21-2002, 09:40 AM   #1163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Trips
Full scale sedans run with the drivers inside, perhaps you think we should try to sit inside our cars?
Nope, but for the sake of being near full scale racing, think we should stick to rubber rather than going to foams.

But if you can fit between the ESC, motor and batteries and you're happy of going inside I think you can....
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Old 02-21-2002, 09:41 AM   #1164
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Thanks for grabbing the wheel and steering us back on track!

This is why I am considering the switch. To have a car that you don't need to spend double the original Street price on it to get it to work would be so nice!

I mean it is good to see that Associated has the FT version they are working on improving the original design. [Unlike some people!]

My only fear is that the electric car might be getting the pillow ball suspension of the nitro car.
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Old 02-21-2002, 10:30 AM   #1165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Corse-R
Nope, but for the sake of being near full scale racing, think we should stick to rubber rather than going to foams.
Shouldn't we ban inserts and make everyone run air-filled tires? The real cars do it that way.

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Old 02-21-2002, 10:55 AM   #1166
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I have only been in 4 sedan races because our only close track is an outdoor track. I am running the racer TC3 and am quite pleased with it so far. Last time I ran at a high bite indoor track It was mostly stock except for the bearings in the steering rack and some additional springs. I stayed within a lap of the fast guys in pro stock and finished 3rd in the A only a couple seconds behind the leaders. I don't think you need everything a FTTC3 comes with to be competitive. Even the threaded shock bodies are more of a convenience than anything. They make adjusting tweak so much easier. If your track barriers aren't easy on the cars make sure you pick up an extra set of composite CVDs for the car. I have cracked a couple of them. Otherwise I haven't broken anything on the car.

I would like to think that if they do make the pillow ball suspension available for the TC3 it will be in a kit upgrade and not force you to buy a complete new car. I hope this helps.

E
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Old 02-21-2002, 11:42 AM   #1167
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DR.....

Associated takes FOREVER to come out with anything new so I wouldn't worry about a new TC3 with pillow ball suspention any time soon.
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Old 02-21-2002, 12:21 PM   #1168
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We should definitly keep the foam vs. rubber discussion elsewhere........

CorseR......wouldnt you still have the same problem with a 10 turn limit...everyone has basically the same power(10turns) so the better batteries would be desired.???????

I like the idea of built in inserts...but couldnt a manufacturer make the same tire with different(insert) characteristics?????so, you'd be back to the same old thang .....oooops...talking about tires again.MY BAD.

Yokomojo.....sorry..i havent played with that setting(shock location) very much.
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Old 02-21-2002, 12:44 PM   #1169
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Quote:
Originally posted by yokomojo
Dragon Slayer:

Have you also experimented with shock tower positions?

What's the effect of moving front and rear in one notch?

Thanks,

yj
moving it in (laying the shocks down) will give you more side bite, but reduce traction at acceleration. if you move both in, you'll make it more twitchy. for a tight track (lots of swithbacks), it will be more responsive.

1st, ask yourself what you are lacking. if you need your car to dive a little harder going into the corner, move just the front link in. you are in essence softening the front, thus giving you quicker steering response. if your driving style is inclined to being on-power most of the time, maybe moving in both your links might improve your lap times. now if you need just your back end to rotate a little faster around the turns, move in your rear one notch.

you have to remember that your driving style and track are going to dictate your set-up. i'm running a one-way w/ my front shock in one hole and the rear all out, and it works for me. another guy i know runs his shocks all in, another guy i know runs his all out, and we all drive similar lap times. you also have to consider shock weight and springs.

i'd try one change at a time and see how my lap times improve. by keeping your variables to a minimum, you'll know exactly what each change will do to your car. on my xxx-s (i know, this a tc-3 thread, but i have a point to make) i threw in a one-way, and my car was faster than w/ a dual diff, but i had to give up some stability. albeit the car was faster, my laps weren't as consistent. it was harder to drive. needless to say, i took the one-way out.

Last edited by diesel31; 02-21-2002 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 02-21-2002, 12:52 PM   #1170
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragon Slayer
CorseR......wouldnt you still have the same problem with a 10 turn limit...everyone has basically the same power(10turns) so the better batteries would be desired.???????
Nope. The difference of performance of a 12 turns vs. a 10 turn is more than noticeable and sometimes we felt that we need a powerful motor and cannot bolt them. The difference of maintenance of a 12 turn pushed to their limits is basically outrageous.

Have you think about truing your comm each heat and changing brushes each heat? Sometimes we need to do them due to the critical maintenance of this motor pushed to their limits.

I don't think that with a 10 turn limit we need to enter on a battery battle like we experienced last season where voltage is the critical point on a 12 turn motor rather than having a 10 turn limit and needed more runtime provided by cells like GT3000R.
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