R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-30-2003, 07:01 AM   #6256
Tech Addict
 
OleC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Norway
Posts: 515
@RBLove:

I really donít see how this will fix the problem.
Please explain.
__________________
JQ The Car Black Edition - O.S. - BUKU - AKA - Byron - Sanwa - SavŲx
No sponsors. I drive what I like, and so should you
OleC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:24 AM   #6257
Tech Master
 
BBSpence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,653
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Here's Cliff Lett's explanation of why the TC3 was designed to have more steering throw to the left... http://www.cmldistribution.co.uk/set_6.htm
BBSpence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:42 AM   #6258
Tech Elite
 
Boomer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Southern Cal - Claremont
Posts: 3,337
Send a message via ICQ to Boomer Send a message via AIM to Boomer
Default

I'm sorry, that just sounds like BUNK.

Theory's one thing. Practice is another.

Perhaps, with an ultra low wind mod in it, it makes a significant torque steer, but I don't run low mods in it, I run stock. I LIKE stock in my TC3. I save Mod for my Pan Car.

I've NEVER noticed torque steer in my TC3 - so why change the steering for it?

Also - the steering isn't asymmetrical for the NTC3. . .and it's a similar shaft design. . . How about the new Yok - it's shaft design, anyone know if IT'S asymmetrical?

The single only thing I know is that once I made the steering symmetrical, I THEN had plenty of throw both directions and the car drove better.
__________________
-
RC10L2.5W - RC12.4 - RCNTC3(bmi) - TC4 (modded) - B44.2 - plus rent-a-rides! :D
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:49 AM   #6259
Tech Elite
 
Horatio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,055
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by BBSpence
Here's Cliff Lett's explanation of why the TC3 was designed to have more steering throw to the left... http://www.cmldistribution.co.uk/set_6.htm
Cheers for that link.

I still think that messing with steering lock in an attempt to counter torque-steer is NOT the way to go. I'd have thought that sorting the tweek on the car is more important.

I agree that using the smallest amount of lock that you can get away with is obviously the quickest way around an individual lap, but for my own personal driving style I like agressive steering - that means that I need the fullest amount of lock available BUT I'm very smooth on the steering stick, only using full deflection when negotiating the very tight sections at my local race track.

So long as you're not scrubbing the tyres, I don't see the harm in having decent lock BOTH ways.

I might add that none of the other shaft driven cars have asymetrical steering - is Associated saying that they've all got it wrong? Afterall, most use the same basic configuration - motor on the right, shaft in the middle, cells down the left.

I believe that the explantion is very 'wordy' but actually explains next to nothing at all. I'm still stumped!

I still recommend applying dremmel if you race on tight circuits - my TC3 was the highest finishing (2nd overall) TC3 after 13 rounds of the S&DMCC Championship.
Horatio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:53 AM   #6260
Tech Elite
 
Horatio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 3,055
Talking

Quote:
Originally posted by Boomer
I'm sorry, that just sounds like BUNK.

Theory's one thing. Practice is another.

Perhaps, with an ultra low wind mod in it, it makes a significant torque steer, but I don't run low mods in it, I run stock. I LIKE stock in my TC3. I save Mod for my Pan Car.

I've NEVER noticed torque steer in my TC3 - so why change the steering for it?

Also - the steering isn't asymmetrical for the NTC3. . .and it's a similar shaft design. . . How about the new Yok - it's shaft design, anyone know if IT'S asymmetrical?

The single only thing I know is that once I made the steering symmetrical, I THEN had plenty of throw both directions and the car drove better.
Boomer - you're a man after my own heart. What you said is sooooo true
Horatio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 12:10 PM   #6261
Tech Regular
 
Me+RC=$$$'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 422
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Send a message via AIM to Me+RC=$$$ Send a message via Yahoo to Me+RC=$$$
Default

My car has bad bad torque steer right now (in the process of working that out), anywho, the part I don't understand is yes, that may sound like a bunch of big worded hocus pocus, but if they didn't plan on producing it that way, wouldn't they have made a 'fix' for it? The car has been out for years now, and they have had a lot of updates for it, why didn't they take this 'oops' into consideration? Was it really supposed to be this way or do are they afraid of ruining their reputation by saying (years later) they screwed up?
Me+RC=$$$ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 02:25 PM   #6262
Tech Elite
 
DaveW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 2,960
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Default

Boomer: Great input... your comments are exactly what this forum was designed for. The only time i ever use full lock is when i get hacked and have to make a quick turn around on the track. But thats me. Horatio made a good comment about a small track, control tires, and a 6 turn. Even though my comment about a 6 turn motor was in reference to tweak/torque steer, and not track times, i will say that he is right.... there are drivers with slower motors that would spank someone with that much motor on control tires and a small "bullring" track. There is a way, however, to tune your car, and transmitter, to run a 6 turn on a small carpet track with control (any) tires. But the fact remains, if you are using full lock coming off of a corner, you arent setup right, even for hairpin turns and switchbacks. I guess i shouldnt say it isnt set up right, but i should say your car isnt set up as efficient as it could be. Utilizing excessive droop to control chassis roll, dremeling steering hubs to increase lock to lock steering are a few extremes that should be (and CAN be) better tuned elsewhere on the car for better balance.

Horatio: As i said in my last post, it wasnt meant as an insult, or for you to take it personally... telling me what i said "was a poor response"... was taking it personally. Chassis dynamics dont lie, physics are always right, and the sun will always set in the West. If you dont like that, then i apologize, but i was only sharing a slice of scientific fact with you. Thats what this forum is for. I am happy you do well with your car setup the way it is... everyone drives differently. Not everyone can drive a "nervous" car around the track and be consistent and fast with it. But i can guarantee you, an experienced someone with a car that doesnt use so much steering throw, could yield faster lap times.

As far as changing times with electronics and battery placement goes, i would agree that moving the battery in does help the car tremendously. Again, this mod affects overall car balance, an extreme change to make up for a supposed "design flaw". I found a 4X2 battery configuration even better, but not practical. (I did a 4X2 chassis, there are pics further back in this forum, as well as a bunch of other mods i have done to the TC3 for various track conditions) We have to remember, the TC3 was designed when the TC market was still fairly new... ASC made the car with a larger market in mind, than just racers. That would be the only way to recoup design costs if the car was a flop on tracks... or if TC was just a new "fad" of R/C... soon to fade. (can you say Micro RS4?) It just happens the car was designed with enough foresight to still make it a competitor today. I think we would all like to see an updated TC from ASC... a full blown race oriented car built around todays electronics packages...all previous mentioned qualms with the car solved. Until then, here we are...
- Dave
__________________
...you better run like im booger flickin...
DaveW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 03:37 PM   #6263
Tech Elite
 
speedxl's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland Oregon.
Posts: 3,876
Default

i have been racing for over 14 years the only time i ever used lock to lock steering is when i first started. i have made many b mains and an a main at nationals so i would say i am a competant driver i havent needed or used lock to lock steering ever for the last ten years i rarely ever use more than 65 to 80 percent dual rate on anytrack! if your car is setup correcttly you will never use full lock steering. if your using more than 80% rate you car! aint! right! there is absolutly no reason to shave anything off.
as an automotive tech if a manufacture put something there its there for a reason! in some cases there is room for change but if since day one till now they havent changed it then theres nothing wrong with it theres also no reason for the batt mod other then personal preference! shaving theblocks to get more throw is a setup issue!
do youre homework guys and make the car work right cause i think your not setting the cars up right or driving them as should be driven! talk to any pro driver and ask them if they use lock to lock steering!
__________________
Pemberton / R1 / All out motorsports / Team Power Push
speedxl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 04:00 PM   #6264
Tech Elite
 
Boomer's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Southern Cal - Claremont
Posts: 3,337
Send a message via ICQ to Boomer Send a message via AIM to Boomer
Default

Well, I would have to say that I'm not a rookie, nor am I an intermediate driver. I run sportsman and just brought home two A-main podium finishes at Rev - I'm not new to this sport.

Y'all are saying that I should never use full lock to lock. That discounts several factors:

1. My driving style. I tend to be very aggressive. I will turn the wheels hard going INTO the turn, and accelerate through it, using the fronts to pull the car through the turn. It's hard on fronts, but it works for me. Driving styles differ, compare Mario Andretti to Ayrton Senna; Mario used a LOT more steering but still got the job done (I've seen vector graphs of the G-forces from their driving. . .Senna's was fairly smooth while Andretti's was a mass of spikes)

2. My local track. My style of driving at SoCal is radically different from my style at Revelation Raceway. SoCal is a TINY track compared to Revelation. At Rev I can use the 12 foot lanes (built for 1/8th scale) to swoop the turns, even the hairpins would be considered keyhole turns at SoCal - it's full throttle and very little steeromg (lock to lock-wise). SoCal, on the other hand, has actual hairpins and the lanes are anywhere from 6-8 feet wide (they can get REAL tight now and again, depending on who does the layout that week) so there can be turns that are very low speed and you have to slow way down for them. If you swing out, someone's going to drop inside and take it - so all turns are fairly tight and you need as much steering as possible. . .

As a technically minded person who's read Milliken and Milliken, if a manufacturer put something there that isn't needed, then it's not needed. Look at how many changes and mods we have figured out - DaveW's 4x2 setup (which is cool, btw. .. never tried it though), the battery mods (which does balance the car better and is a great mod), and the NTC3 steering mod (which is far less maintenance and very good steering). The car is never perfect.

I did my homework. I'm driving it right enough to bring home a couple of trophies with it. I also talk with the pros (Barry, TonyP, etc.) and know that their driving styles differ, not just from mine, but from each other's.

If you're an automotive tech, does that make you a great driver? If you've been driving for 14 years, does that make you a great setup? If I walk into a Macdonald's, does that make me a Quarter Pounder? No dissing, here. I'm not trying to throw any disrespect your way. I'm only saying that Theory's Nice But Practicality Is Better (tm) and saying that we shouldn't need full and equal throw to both sides is "coulda woulda shoulda" theory, not practicality.
__________________
-
RC10L2.5W - RC12.4 - RCNTC3(bmi) - TC4 (modded) - B44.2 - plus rent-a-rides! :D
Boomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 07:11 PM   #6265
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 2,504
Trader Rating: 5 (100%+)
Default

Question for those of you running the Losi steering knuckles...are you also using the Losi C-Hubs as well or just the Losi Knuckles. I've found that I have to remove a fair amount of material from the Losi C-Hubs to keep them from hitting the springs using the rear shock tower up front
DOTMAN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:36 PM   #6266
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: seattle, WA
Posts: 864
Default

I have a problem with my tc3, I'm running 19t foams. Sometimes when I corner it seems like the front wheels straighten out and than go back to turning again. I know it's not glitching because it only does it sometimes when I'm carrying some speed. And when I drive my x-ray it never does it, even though I drive it the same. And ideas? It's kinda like the car breaks loose in the front and than gains traction and than the rear end does it so it wiggles back and forth. It can be very annoying. Thanks for any help.
racerdx6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:39 PM   #6267
Tech Master
 
BBSpence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 1,653
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by speedxl
theres also no reason for the batt mod other then personal preference!
The reason for moving the batteries in is because the TC3 was designed when Sanyo 2000's were the current battery. We now have heavier batteries and lighter electronics. If you don't move them in, a TC3 with GP3300's will sit almost 2mm lower on the battery side because of this. The car steers a lot more consistant left to right after doing this mod.
BBSpence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 08:51 PM   #6268
Tech Fanatic
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: seattle, WA
Posts: 864
Default

Not only does it steer better but the car transitions more consistently with the major weight on the car closer to the center line.
racerdx6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 10:10 PM   #6269
Tech Elite
 
speedxl's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Portland Oregon.
Posts: 3,876
Default

guys your right being a tech doesnt mean i have all the answer but because of the mechanical thinking i do when i look at a car or read instruction manuals when you have been doing it for a while you tend to know what to actually spend time modifieng i for instance think that modifieing the steering is neither a good nor bad thing just not really going to help you make the a main its mental and as for the battery mod i did this on a spare chassis and tested it i felt this did merit the time and effort to get better performance way before it even got posted on this thread when i first saw it on barrys car about qa year ago when he started driving the tc3 (i think at the nationals in colorado is first sighting of this mod) boomer i have made the a main at nationals and have been in plenty of b mains at nationals this to me signifies that i am good but not awsome not everything is in need of a modification i never said you didnt need to have equal steering but if your at the point where you need to be locked in then you arent setup right if you say your agressive driving then set up your car to be drivin agressivly without having to go to full lock!
if you walked in to mcdonalds it doesnt make you a quarter pounder but itll make i sick person with diarea. i only stated the amount of time i have been racing just to clarify i have some experiance and i can tell you this much i dont race sportsman or intermediate i run with some of the best drivers in the country that make the a main at a national and i can beat them on any given day, does this make me world champ no does all this time of racing make me an expert at setups no but iam sure i can show you a thing or two that will make you go hmm! its all relative with experiance man just because it was designed a certain way doesnt mean you cant mess withit but when someone thats done it for awhile and has tried a lot of things tells you it really aint needed and its all in your setup step back and say let me try different things and see if he's right and the factory too by all means try thing but value if what your doing is only putting a bandage on something thats not the correct way and if you take your time to setup correctly you'll probly be as fast or faster!
__________________
Pemberton / R1 / All out motorsports / Team Power Push
speedxl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2003, 10:26 PM   #6270
Tech Elite
 
lee82gx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Land Of peace , Malaysia
Posts: 2,304
Trader Rating: 1 (100%+)
Red face

maybe Boomer is using the diff's while speedxl is using one-ways?
cos i do lock to lock when i feel the need to be aggressive(yeah boomer!!) but mostly i would be running the diff's then.
on a one-way i shudder to think someone can actually control that much of steering.
this is a fact discounted on real cars(Senna or otherwise).
there is an imbalance in the steering system,no doubt but i think it's better to limit the left side EPA rather than dremelling etc.
lee82gx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New to the forum mig rod Electric Off-Road 1 01-05-2008 04:23 PM
hi i need help and im new to the forum racer4 Rookie Zone 4 01-21-2007 01:37 PM
Why is this forum listed under the On Road Forum? sport10 Onroad Nitro Engine Zone 0 01-11-2007 07:06 AM
Forum Changes... futureal Wisconsin & Illinois Racing 3 10-28-2002 08:26 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 11:59 AM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net