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Old 11-01-2009, 05:26 AM   #1486
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80s was the shit.

Fun fact: BMW had a wastegate failure one year at monza witch lead to a "unlimited" boost level. car lastet just over the finish line in the qualifier. The power figures was estimatet to 1300-1500HP or something.

Fun fact 2: the engine block used by bmw was designed in the late 50s and first saw production in the early 60s

Fun fact 3: The motor was ordered by BMW to be a 1,4-1,3 liter or something but the guy who designed it was not sure about wether or not that was a smart thing (tiny) so he made it a 1,6 i think and with space for a bore up to 1,8L (he was a former race driver)

check out the facebook group: say NO to more rules in f1
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Old 11-01-2009, 05:49 AM   #1487
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Turbo motors were only allowed a maximum of 1500cc
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Old 11-01-2009, 07:41 AM   #1488
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NiMo, you are very correct in saying "bring back ground effects in the sidepods".

Mario Andretti who has raced just about everything with wheels and who raced the Lotus 79 ground effect car to the 1978 world championship commented a few years back that much of the passing problem that exists in current F1 is because the flat-bottom cars rely too much on the front and rear wings and also the diffusers. When the following car tries to overtake the front end washes out due to the turbulence of the rear wing of the car ahead and so the pass becomes much more difficult/impossible, therefore they too often use pitstops as a way to get ahead.

If you return to sidepods with full venturi ground effect tunnels then the car dose'nt rely so much on the front and rear wings. In fact they are used more as a trim tab for the surface air then as the main source of downforce which is now generated by the venturi tunnels instead. This will allow the cars to run much closer together and the front end of the following car won't wash out as it does now and we would see more passing on the racetrack and not in the pits!

Unfortunately the FIA is made up mostly of self-serving egomaniacs who won't listen to an actual racer of Andretti's caliber. And I seriously don't believe that Jean Todt as the new FIA president will see the light either.

Some fans think the answer is to severely cut back on the aero or eliminate it altogether and focus on just the mechanical grip. While that may work, the problem is that it is very unrealistic! You see, F1 is THE most technically advanced form of motorsport on the planet and you can't go backwords in technology which removing the aero would do. It's here to stay. Aerodynamics is not the problem, improper use of it is!
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Old 11-01-2009, 07:57 AM   #1489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Lotus View Post
NiMo, you are very correct in saying "bring back ground effects in the sidepods".

Mario Andretti who has raced just about everything with wheels and who raced the Lotus 79 ground effect car to the 1978 world championship commented a few years back that much of the passing problem that exists in current F1 is because the flat-bottom cars rely too much on the front and rear wings and also the diffusers. When the following car tries to overtake the front end washes out due to the turbulence of the rear wing of the car ahead and so the pass becomes much more difficult/impossible, therefore they too often use pitstops as a way to get ahead.

If you return to sidepods with full venturi ground effect tunnels then the car dose'nt rely so much on the front and rear wings. In fact they are used more as a trim tab for the surface air then as the main source of downforce which is now generated by the venturi tunnels instead. This will allow the cars to run much closer together and the front end of the following car won't wash out as it does now and we would see more passing on the racetrack and not in the pits!

Unfortunately the FIA is made up mostly of self-serving egomaniacs who won't listen to an actual racer of Andretti's caliber. And I seriously don't believe that Jean Todt as the new FIA president will see the light either.

Some fans think the answer is to severely cut back on the aero or eliminate it altogether and focus on just the mechanical grip. While that may work, the problem is that it is very unrealistic! You see, F1 is THE most technically advanced form of motorsport on the planet and you can't go backwords in technology which removing the aero would do. It's here to stay. Aerodynamics is not the problem, improper use of it is!
That is exactly what I've been saying.
look at this year and how much different a simple 50mm slot it the floor pan allows enough deflection of air to make double deck diffusers work.

All the time you rely on front downforce you are not going to get close racing.
How often do you hear of dirty air in Touring Car racing? I only hear it at speeds well over 100mph.
Ligier JS11 was dominant in its time, yet it had no front wings, and was the only time I recall Ligier as a front runner.

All classes of Single Seater should move downforce in to the side pods, and ban front wings, then we wont have to lose good drivers simply cos the car on front chopped it air away or front wing off.

Sorry, rant over
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:12 AM   #1490
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thats why you should join the say NO to more rules in F1
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:12 AM   #1491
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Brabham BT46 - suction car banned after one race
Lotus 88 - twin chassis banned before allowed to race
Tyrrell P34 - more than 4 wheels now banned. (Tamiya has released twice)
Williams FW14B - active suspension now banned (pioneered by Lotus?)

i liked it better when the designers were not handcuffed.
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:21 AM   #1492
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How do Hamilton, Alonso, Raikonnen, and even Button when his job depended on it, manage to pass often with the same rules that handcuff the others
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:27 AM   #1493
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Brabham BT46 - Was never actually banned, Brabham withdrew it after the Swedish GP after many complaints.

Lotus 88 - failed the rules as the body was not attached to the chassis at any point, it was fitted to the suspension arms.

Tyrrell P34 - Good year only produced one compound in 1976, and refused to make other compounds, and during early 1977 refused to make any more tyres, so Tyrrell had to make use of used tyres.
The car now runs very successfully in historic F1 racing since Avon produced tyres on demand, and in a few compounds

Williams FW14B - was one of many with active Hydrolic suspension, this was banned as it helped designers get around the fixed skirt ruling, a rule that was meant to prevent Ground Effects using Skirts sooner.
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:40 AM   #1494
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The refueling ban next year, so no refueling in the pits like pre 1994, will as mentioned on speed during qualifying, probably change the shape of the rear side pod area.... I would hope not, as i like the looks of the cars now vs 2008.


Ok, how about that F60 showing up in hobby stores yet?
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Old 11-01-2009, 08:53 AM   #1495
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Despite the stupid rules there will always be certain drivers who on occasion will find a way to make a pass on the track, however ask any driver up and down the pitlane and they will tell you that the current design of the cars makes it extremely difficult to a execute a proper pass and that if things were different you would see way more on-track passing.

The rules changes and redesign of the cars for 2009 was supposed to fix the problem, but sadly did not succeed. I just watched the Abu Dahbi race and the battle between Button and Webber in the closing laps illustrates my point.
They were nose to tail and Button was obviously giving it his all to get by Webber but time and again you could see him back off when he got too close to Webber's rear wing. He almost pulled it off at the end but not quite.

I agree with those who call for less restrictions/rules regarding car design. Let the designers have more freedom! This is F1 after all, not NASCAR!

Unfortunately the FIA does'nt care one bit what we the fans think or what the drivers themselves think. They arrogantly think they have all the answers and that only THEY can fix it! So, I'm afraid we are "preaching to the choire". At least NASCAR does seem to listen to some extent to it's fans. Hard for me to admit as I am a life-long F1 junkie and not a NASCAR fan.
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:04 AM   #1496
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If anyone is looking for a great deal on a new, never run chassis with upgrades and spares look here:

NEW TAMIYA F104 PRO WITH UPGRADES AND EXTRAS
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:09 AM   #1497
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the lotus 88 was an exercise in regulation loophole exploitation. the rules said that all aerodynamic devices had to be mounted on the sprung part of the chassis. its outer chassis which carried all the aero was 'sprung' albeit by very stiff springs. the dampers on the outer chassis were very soft in compression and slow to rebound to allow the chassis to drop at speed then slowly raise back up in the pits for technical inspection. this was done to get around the minimum ride height rule.

the scrutineers actually declared the car legal but the FIA still banned it due to pressure from the rival teams.

yes it's a bit overboard compared to the Brawn diffuser as far has loophole exploitations go but still i commend any designer for thinking out of the box.


the BT46 - i didn't know it wasn't banned but rather withdrawn due to someone caving in to complaints. but i'm not surprised as Brabham's team principal at the time was none other than Mr. Bernie "Poison Dwarf" Ecclestone.
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:21 AM   #1498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiMo View Post
Turbo motors were only allowed a maximum of 1500cc
You're correct...

Here is the BMW/Brabham BT54 Specs:

Engine: 4-cylinder, turbocharged M12/13
Valve linkage: DOHC
Displacement: 1499 cc
Bore x stroke: 89.2 mm x 60 mm
Power output: 800 horsepower at 10,500 rpm
Gearbox: 5- or 6-speed
Suspension: Front: Double wishbones, pushrods
Rear: Double wishbones, pushrods
Brakes: SEP/Brabham/Girling
Tires: Pirelli
Wheels: Front: 13 x 12-inch
Rear: 13 x 16.5-inch
Wheelbase: 119 in.
Weight: 931 lbs.
Year of construction: 1985
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:45 AM   #1499
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Interestingly that minimum ride height rule still existed in 1983 which meant that Colin Chapman of Lotus was by now dead and it was left to Gordon Murray of Brabham to be the one who would challenge the FIA establishment and think "outside the box" with the 1983 Brabham which used a technically illegal trick suspension that was operated by the driver so that it raised the car up to the legal ride height as it went into the pits so as to pass scrutineering, and then when it went back out on the track he could flip a switch and lower the car back down to the illegal ride height for better performance.

Interestingly, the FIA let Brabham get away with it and they and Piquet went on to win the championship that year, yet the Lotus 88 twin chassis car which depending on how you interprete the rules may-or-may not have been illegal, was never even allowed to race! The story goes that certain F1 teams headed by Ferrari decided they had enough of Colin Chapman constantly outdoing them with ever more new ideas that rendered their stuff obsolete that they went to the FIA and lobbied to have the car banned. Chapman found out about it and was so pissed he almost quit F1 right then. And then a year later he was dead and there was no one left to stand up to the FIA monarchy who were by now "drunk" with power and control over the teams. This really was the beginning of the decline of classic F1 and has gradually over the last 27 years led to the mess we have now!
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Old 11-01-2009, 09:54 AM   #1500
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Nice Honda Hot-Rod

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