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Old 01-14-2010, 06:15 AM   #1786
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Originally Posted by AARON YOUNG View Post
So wheres the 107 and 110 software ?All i see is the 131 and 132 on the site.
Once you install and run firmware v132, in the upgrade section of the software there's a drop down list with all the available ESC revisions.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:42 AM   #1787
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Default Speed Passion 17.5 V3 Gearing

The following is the V3 17.5 setup that I am getting the most consistent and fastest laptimes with... I am going to try out 110 software now... has anyone else tested 110??

ESC: SP GT 2.0 (PRO)
Software: 107 firmware (1.32 programmer software)
FDR: 104/46*1.9 = 4.29

Battery: Thunder Power 7.4v 40C
Motor: SP V3 17.5R
Track: 100 Foot Straight away total 100/50 foot
SP ESC Timing: 26 degrees
DRRS: 9
Drag Brake: 10%
Motor Timing: 7 degrees (between max and middle)
Chassis: XRAY T3

also like Adam has mentioned any time I make software changes on the esc, I re-caliberate my radio otherwise the throttle response does not come out right
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:44 AM   #1788
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Adam:

How do these motors:



compare to the V3.0 style speed passion motors?

Also, can you go into a bit of background on a slotless design?
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:00 AM   #1789
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Originally Posted by sammies View Post
Hi... am new to brushless technology... what is the definition of "MOD" motors? I remember (I think) reading somewhere that the 107/110 software is recommended only for motors with 9.5T and above.

For motors below 9.5T, then 312/323 is recommended...

Is my understanding correct?

thanks in advance

sam
Sam, according to Roar a "MOD" motor is any motor 10.5T-3.5T, yes the instructions with the software state you can run down to a 9.5T but in the US 13.5T is the lowest "stock" class before "mod" I tell people if your running anything lower than 10.5T don't use the stock software.

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Originally Posted by AARON YOUNG View Post
So wheres the 107 and 110 software ?All i see is the 131 and 132 on the site.
Download the version 1.32, it's in there dude

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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Adam:

How do these motors:



compare to the V3.0 style speed passion motors?

Also, can you go into a bit of background on a slotless design?
I'll let Shawn tackle this
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:19 AM   #1790
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Thanks. Will he be posting info on the 1/8 thread?
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:32 AM   #1791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Adam:

How do these motors:



compare to the V3.0 style speed passion motors?

Also, can you go into a bit of background on a slotless design?
Nice this thing does not have any cogging
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Old 01-14-2010, 08:34 AM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Thanks. Will he be posting info on the 1/8 thread?
No, it'll be here
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:18 AM   #1793
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Originally Posted by dsyed1 View Post
The following is the V3 17.5 setup that I am getting the most consistent and fastest laptimes with... I am going to try out 110 software now... has anyone else tested 110??

ESC: SP GT 2.0 (PRO)
Software: 107 firmware (1.32 programmer software)
FDR: 104/46*1.9 = 4.29

Battery: Thunder Power 7.4v 40C
Motor: SP V3 17.5R
Track: 100 Foot Straight away total 100/50 foot
SP ESC Timing: 26 degrees
DRRS: 9
Drag Brake: 10%
Motor Timing: 7 degrees (between max and middle)
Chassis: XRAY T3

also like Adam has mentioned any time I make software changes on the esc, I re-caliberate my radio otherwise the throttle response does not come out right
Wonder if I will get my motor back. Adam he took my motor
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:22 AM   #1794
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Default New Cirtix Slotless Sensored motors

Hi Guys,

These are my babies, so I'll go into a little more detail about them here.

For 10th scale:
These are built to ROAR specs for "mod" motors, which are basically any motor other than the specific ROAR build spec for spec 21.5, 17.5 stock, 13.5 superstock, and spec 10.5.

So the application would be for offroad buggy (2wd or 4wd), truck, SC, and etc running in a "mod" or open class. Also for onroad touring car, 12th scale, pancar or oval class deemed "mod" or open.

In a strictly ROAR sense, they will be legal (once approved) in the offroad mod buggy (2wd/4wd), and mod truck classes. Also mod TC and mod 12th scale.

So... what's the big deal you might say?

The answer is (as Cain asked) in the specific design of the motor. All brushless motors are not the same animal. What I call "the ROAR build" typical racing brushless motors we're all familiar with are a slotted style motor. When you take the backplate off of one, you can see that the wire is wound around three "teeth" that point toward the central rotor. These are the "slots" built into the steel laminations of a slotted style motor, and thus the name.

When you look at a slotless style motor with the backplate removed, moving out from the center you see the rotor, the wires, and if you look closely between the wires and the inside of the motor can, you see just a circle of steel laminations. There are no extensions of them pointing toward the rotor for the wire to wrap around. We'll get back to the advantages of this method a little further down.

As most everyone knows, racing and power always seems to center around motor heat. If you're geared too fast, the motor gets hot and can be damaged or destroyed.

So what exactly causes a motor to get hot?
In electronics, amps = heat. The overly simplified version is this: When a motor draws X amps, it gets warm. When it draws X times 2 amps, it gets hot. When it draws X times 3 amps it heats to the point of destruction very soon.

So what's causing all those amps (heat)?
One of the most basic attributes of any motor (brushed or brushless) is that when you apply a certain voltage to it, it wants to use that voltage times it's Kv to get to a certain RPM. If you put 7v to a 3000 Kv motor, the motor "wants" to get to 21,000 rpm. If there's no load on the motor, then it's easy for it to reach it's rpm, and it doesn't have to draw many amps to do it.

The more load you put on the motor though, (just like shifting gears on a ten speed bike - you go faster, but it's harder to pedal) the harder it has to work to get up to it's desired rpm, and it draws more amps to do that harder work. Continuing with the example of you pedaling a bike - if you have bodybuilder style muscular legs, you have more torque to push the pedals than your skinny legged 10yr old daughter. With more torque, it takes less effort for you to push the pedals. A motor works the same way - with more torque, it draws less amps doing the same "work" as a motor with less torque does. So the more "effort" (amps) required of the motor to get to it's desired Kv is also related to torque.

So we know that a motor drawing a lot of amps gets hot, and now we know that heat is caused by amps, and amp draw is related to how much torque the motor has. But there's one last thing that's important to this discussion - the wires inside the motor itself (windings).

The motor windings are what's carrying all the amps, and they are what's actually getting hot inside the motor. The more amps you put through a wire, the hotter it gets. But also - the same amps going through two different thicknesses of wire will show different temperatures. The thicker wire will be cooler than the thinner wire when both are handling the same amps.

Now we can get to the advantages of a slotless motor for racing:
The first one is in the name itself - without the steel lamination "teeth" extending toward the rotor, there is more room in the motor for thicker wire, or more strands of wire to accomplish the same Kv. As above - thicker wire runs cooler than thinner wire.

Secondly, (and again being a little overly simplistic here), the magnetic "path" from the rotor, through the windings, to the laminations, back through the wire and back to the rotor to complete the circle is cleaner and less disturbed in a slotless motor than a slotted one. The "teeth" in a slotted motor disfigures somewhat that "clean path". The direct benefit here is somewhat nebulous, and involves a little bit of added torque and also the concept of efficiency (efficiency = more work for less amps).

So the end result, is that these motors will run cooler, use less amps, and therefore make your ESC and battery run happier (and cooler) as well. They will also be much more difficult to overheat/damage than the old-style mod motors.

Another large difference between slotted and slotless motors, is that generally slotless motors have very little or no resistance to spinning the shaft by hand. A slotted motor can have very heavy resistance, or low resistance depending on the intent of the design, but they all have some form of inherent "drag brake" when the car is coasting that you can't take out of the motor. Slotless designs have almost none, so it allows YOU to dial exactly how much or little you actually want to have for your application.

So why haven't we seen slotless motors dominate racing already if they're so much better?
Up until now, a slotless 10th size motor had to run with a sensorless ESC. We are the first to combine sensor technology with the superior design of a slotless motor, to allow it to be run with any sensored racing ESC.

Where do slotted vs slotless motors fit into the rest of the RC power industry?
Generally speaking (and excluding outrunner style motors), the typical "ROAR build" slotted motors have basically no use within the electric airplane, boat and heli markets. They make far less power with far more heat than the "norm" of a slotless motor. Aircraft are very sensitive to weight, and power is king in that domain, therefore the more efficient and powerful slotless motors are dominant.

Some of you may be familiar with Neu motors, and yes - some of them are slotted designs, but they are far more refined and efficient than the typical ROAR build, as well as generally being a multi-pole design instead of the traditional two pole solid sintered rotors within both slotless and ROAR style car motors.

Motor design is a fascinating, but also fantastically complex set of multiple trade-offs in order to get the specific performance desired. I hope I've answered more questions than will be raised about this new motor line, and helped everyone understand a bit more about how they'll help take your mod motor racing up a level of performance and durability ease of mind as well!
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:38 AM   #1795
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Thanks for that great explanation. Why can't they be used in "spec" class racing? The benefits seem to universal...is there a technical reason there can't be a 17.5 or 13.5 slotless motor? Or is it just against ROAR rules?
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:52 AM   #1796
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Originally Posted by SRW141 View Post
Wonder if I will get my motor back. Adam he took my motor
would not have been able to do this if you did not lend me your motor my old motor is sitting in my pit bag and I was able to buy another v3 17.5 online...

so have been testing with both motors just to make sure i get consistent results... so i'll definitley have your motor for you next time i see you at the track..

now the 110 software head scratching begins for me
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:55 AM   #1797
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Wonder if I will get my motor back. Adam he took my motor
I'm holding your motor hostage for more cookies....email me
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Old 01-14-2010, 10:43 AM   #1798
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Hi Steve,

Pardon the history lesson here, but it's necessary:

Way back when, Bob Novak decided it was time to bring the racers a motor with more durability, and less (or no) expensive, difficult to fully comprehend, and time consuming maintenance practices. He stuck his neck out for the racers first (as he did first with lipo as well by the way - didja know that? but that didn't work out as well for him as brushless did ) by offering the first racer BL package.

Then, instead of sitting back and waiting for the sanctioning bodies, tracks, and racers themselves to comprehend the new technology enough to attempt to write rules promoting fair competition with them, he AGAIN stuck his neck out, and volunteered to help ROAR write the initial brushless rules package.

I don't advertise this much, but I myself have been on the Executive Committee at ROAR (basically the board of directors) for the last two years. We're all volunteers, and until I was directly involved, I had NO IDEA the time, effort, research, late nights, long meetings and incredible email volume the volunteers at ROAR put in for our racing membership.

I say the above, to make clear that Bob's involvement in order to educate the ROAR leadership as to the hows and whys of BL tech, and help write that initial package was certainly no small task.

So now, we are years later (I think at least 5 years since then) and BL has become the racing norm. Mostly because Novak had the guts to do it first, and the rest of the mfrs not only followed his lead, but his specific design as well, which he pretty much "gave" to the world by speccing it out in the ROAR rules.

ROAR received a heavy volume of requests from members and member tracks to adjust the MOD motor rules to reflect the current state of racing, where many different build styles are now available and in use by racers. We responded to our membership and the constantly shifting needs of member tracks with new technologies coming out that racers want to use by adjusting the rules to allow all build styles - not just the original (and only one at the time). And also - mod is MOD. If you can hang on to the power, get after it - that's what that class is about.

So - for the power limited classes (17.5 and 13.5), the "ROAR build" is quite purposely low on power and torque, in order to keep racing speeds in check for these classes and build new racers with classes newbies can actually handle. Are there things ROAR could do to increase survivability, as well as accomplishing a needed slow-down in these classes? Absolutely, and they have been discussed in earnest for quite some time, but I can't divulge anything further at this time.
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Old 01-14-2010, 11:42 AM   #1799
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Hi Shawn, so question is - what traditional motor turn rate you can compare these new motors to? I know which have similar kV rating, I'm just curious how it's performance wise.
Thank you
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Old 01-14-2010, 12:13 PM   #1800
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I am wondering too.

I believe Castle Creation 1/10 sensorless motors are a slotless design, and I have heard from those who have run them and then similar sensored Kv motors that they felt like they made more power.

I am also interested to know how much of a cost difference we will see with these, as well as if these will be included in any combos like with the yet to be released Silver Arrow II 1/8 ESC?

Anyway, great to see that these are in the works and that Speed Passion doesn't sit still.
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