"Ask" Jilles Groskamp Tamiya 416 & 417, Team Orion Motors
05-31-2009, 09:47 PM
#287
Hi Jilles
I currently run a couple of 416 Worlds for Indoor racing and a 415 MSX for outdoor stuff.
We are currently running a 13.5 brushless series at our local club. My problem is that my car seems to lack "pick up" or "punch" out of the corners. Initially i assumed that it must be the motor or the speedo. I am sure that its not my batteries as i use my Trakpower 3600 30C Lipos in my Schumacher CAT SX and the punch is fantastic on a much more power hungry 5.5 motor.
So, i purchased a new orion vortex 13.5 motor and a new LRP TC Spec speedo. Fitted both and the car feels pretty much the same. The diff isnt slipping, the speedo has been set to a punch level of 6 and my KO Universe Tranny is on std settings for throttle curve/punch etc.
Currently im running a 100 spur and a 40 tooth 64pitch pinion. If i recall correctly, the final drive ratio is around 5.13. The motor was at 59 Celcius when i tested it straight after a race with my laser gun.
We race on polished wooden floor with 21mm Schumacher narrow yellow minipin tyres
Am i missing something ? The guy who gives me the greatest test at our club runs a MI3.5 and his car is just soo punchy between the bends. Top end theres nothing in it but my pickup is lousy. Please help !
I currently run a couple of 416 Worlds for Indoor racing and a 415 MSX for outdoor stuff.
We are currently running a 13.5 brushless series at our local club. My problem is that my car seems to lack "pick up" or "punch" out of the corners. Initially i assumed that it must be the motor or the speedo. I am sure that its not my batteries as i use my Trakpower 3600 30C Lipos in my Schumacher CAT SX and the punch is fantastic on a much more power hungry 5.5 motor.
So, i purchased a new orion vortex 13.5 motor and a new LRP TC Spec speedo. Fitted both and the car feels pretty much the same. The diff isnt slipping, the speedo has been set to a punch level of 6 and my KO Universe Tranny is on std settings for throttle curve/punch etc.
Currently im running a 100 spur and a 40 tooth 64pitch pinion. If i recall correctly, the final drive ratio is around 5.13. The motor was at 59 Celcius when i tested it straight after a race with my laser gun.
We race on polished wooden floor with 21mm Schumacher narrow yellow minipin tyres
Am i missing something ? The guy who gives me the greatest test at our club runs a MI3.5 and his car is just soo punchy between the bends. Top end theres nothing in it but my pickup is lousy. Please help !
06-01-2009, 08:17 AM
#288
Tech Addict
Hi Jilles
I currently run a couple of 416 Worlds for Indoor racing and a 415 MSX for outdoor stuff.
We are currently running a 13.5 brushless series at our local club. My problem is that my car seems to lack "pick up" or "punch" out of the corners. Initially i assumed that it must be the motor or the speedo. I am sure that its not my batteries as i use my Trakpower 3600 30C Lipos in my Schumacher CAT SX and the punch is fantastic on a much more power hungry 5.5 motor.
So, i purchased a new orion vortex 13.5 motor and a new LRP TC Spec speedo. Fitted both and the car feels pretty much the same. The diff isnt slipping, the speedo has been set to a punch level of 6 and my KO Universe Tranny is on std settings for throttle curve/punch etc.
Currently im running a 100 spur and a 40 tooth 64pitch pinion. If i recall correctly, the final drive ratio is around 5.13. The motor was at 59 Celcius when i tested it straight after a race with my laser gun.
We race on polished wooden floor with 21mm Schumacher narrow yellow minipin tyres
Am i missing something ? The guy who gives me the greatest test at our club runs a MI3.5 and his car is just soo punchy between the bends. Top end theres nothing in it but my pickup is lousy. Please help !
I currently run a couple of 416 Worlds for Indoor racing and a 415 MSX for outdoor stuff.
We are currently running a 13.5 brushless series at our local club. My problem is that my car seems to lack "pick up" or "punch" out of the corners. Initially i assumed that it must be the motor or the speedo. I am sure that its not my batteries as i use my Trakpower 3600 30C Lipos in my Schumacher CAT SX and the punch is fantastic on a much more power hungry 5.5 motor.
So, i purchased a new orion vortex 13.5 motor and a new LRP TC Spec speedo. Fitted both and the car feels pretty much the same. The diff isnt slipping, the speedo has been set to a punch level of 6 and my KO Universe Tranny is on std settings for throttle curve/punch etc.
Currently im running a 100 spur and a 40 tooth 64pitch pinion. If i recall correctly, the final drive ratio is around 5.13. The motor was at 59 Celcius when i tested it straight after a race with my laser gun.
We race on polished wooden floor with 21mm Schumacher narrow yellow minipin tyres
Am i missing something ? The guy who gives me the greatest test at our club runs a MI3.5 and his car is just soo punchy between the bends. Top end theres nothing in it but my pickup is lousy. Please help !
....
06-01-2009, 09:02 AM
#289
I have a couple of recommendations since Jilles is a full Modified racer! 1. How large is the track? because that seems undergeared for that setup. Usually a 4.0-5.0 FDR depending on the track for 13.5. 2. For stock with the LRP TC speedo you should run profile 8 unless the track is very low traction, since it is focused more towards lower turn motors, but profile 8 works very well for stock. These things should both improve punch for sure. Hope this helps!
Hi there
Thanks for the info
The track is always laid within an indoor gymnasium. We all use the same 21mm Schumacher yellow minipin tyres with foam inserts. Lap times are in the order of 13 seconds usually - its not a huge track. The main straight is in the order of 20 metres - numerous 90 degree and 180 degree bends to contend with so i really need that punch like my competitors. I can stay on the pace in the top 3 every week but its only because my lines are neat and i dont crash too often. I have noted that most peoples cars seem to reach their top speed much sooner than my own. The eventual top speed is pretty much identical though. I haven't tried profile 8 as other people using the same TC Spec speedo never seem to run theirs as high - but i will certainly give it a go. Grip is usually pretty bad at the beginning of the meeting and then comes up once the dust has been "swept" off the track by racing. I was always of the opinion that increasing the pinion size ( and reducing FDR ) would make top end faster but reduce acceleration ? Im reasonalby new to brushless though. I just dont want to cook my motor. What sort of temp is it ok to get it up to ? What would be the effect of increasing spur gear size and reducing pinion size to get the same FDR ?Any further help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys
06-01-2009, 09:43 AM
#290
Tech Rookie
Hi Jilles
Congrats on your win over the weekend firstly! Can I ask you what motor, rotor, timing, overall and speedo settings you used at Apeldoorn?
Regards
Chris
Congrats on your win over the weekend firstly! Can I ask you what motor, rotor, timing, overall and speedo settings you used at Apeldoorn?
Regards
Chris
06-01-2009, 10:01 AM
#291
Just wanted to congratulate Jilles on his great win this weekend from us at Tamiya USA!
06-01-2009, 11:02 AM
#292
Tech Rookie
Congrats Jilles!! Great race!!
Joan
Joan
06-01-2009, 01:15 PM
#293
Tech Adept
I also like to congratulate Jilles Groskamp, for his great race.
Here are a very good comments, photos, and videos for the race:
http://ets.redrc.net/
Greetings, Luis C.
PD: Hello Joan ¡¡¡¡
Here are a very good comments, photos, and videos for the race:
http://ets.redrc.net/
Greetings, Luis C.
PD: Hello Joan ¡¡¡¡
06-01-2009, 02:22 PM
#294
Hi there
Thanks for the info The track is always laid within an indoor gymnasium. We all use the same 21mm Schumacher yellow minipin tyres with foam inserts. Lap times are in the order of 13 seconds usually - its not a huge track. The main straight is in the order of 20 metres - numerous 90 degree and 180 degree bends to contend with so i really need that punch like my competitors. I can stay on the pace in the top 3 every week but its only because my lines are neat and i dont crash too often. I have noted that most peoples cars seem to reach their top speed much sooner than my own. The eventual top speed is pretty much identical though. I haven't tried profile 8 as other people using the same TC Spec speedo never seem to run theirs as high - but i will certainly give it a go. Grip is usually pretty bad at the beginning of the meeting and then comes up once the dust has been "swept" off the track by racing. I was always of the opinion that increasing the pinion size ( and reducing FDR ) would make top end faster but reduce acceleration ? Im reasonalby new to brushless though. I just dont want to cook my motor. What sort of temp is it ok to get it up to ? What would be the effect of increasing spur gear size and reducing pinion size to get the same FDR ?
Any further help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys
Thanks for the info
The track is always laid within an indoor gymnasium. We all use the same 21mm Schumacher yellow minipin tyres with foam inserts. Lap times are in the order of 13 seconds usually - its not a huge track. The main straight is in the order of 20 metres - numerous 90 degree and 180 degree bends to contend with so i really need that punch like my competitors. I can stay on the pace in the top 3 every week but its only because my lines are neat and i dont crash too often. I have noted that most peoples cars seem to reach their top speed much sooner than my own. The eventual top speed is pretty much identical though. I haven't tried profile 8 as other people using the same TC Spec speedo never seem to run theirs as high - but i will certainly give it a go. Grip is usually pretty bad at the beginning of the meeting and then comes up once the dust has been "swept" off the track by racing. I was always of the opinion that increasing the pinion size ( and reducing FDR ) would make top end faster but reduce acceleration ? Im reasonalby new to brushless though. I just dont want to cook my motor. What sort of temp is it ok to get it up to ? What would be the effect of increasing spur gear size and reducing pinion size to get the same FDR ?Any further help would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks guys
To keep the same FDR you would have to increase or decrease the spur and pinion at the same time, not inversely. Keeping the same FDR with different gears only slightly adjusts the motor location, but other than that it does not effect much! Hope this helps!
06-01-2009, 03:41 PM
#295
Tech Rookie
Nice to see you here. I'm trying a new combo for 416 with Tekin and SP this week, I'll tell you if it works fine ; )
See you in Madrid!
Joan.
06-01-2009, 08:24 PM
#296
Back to my testing, I did run on a lighter oil but I did not like the car handling as it felt a little too twitchy and unstable, it could be the Tamiya Yellow spring, but I also didn’t like it when I tried harder springs, or maybe my fingers were too nervous..
. I went back to harder oil and it felt even better with a harder spring (tamiya blue). I guess lighter oil doesn’t suit my driving style and the temperature here in Singapore is really really too hot to use light oil. Does this make sense to you? I confuse myself sometimes too… 
Another question on your World’s setup. I changed the front blocks from 1D,1D to 1C,1C…and I noticed right away the car was very aggressive and have lots of steering entering corners, maybe a little too much causing oversteer (but still within control). Would you see such characteristic with this change?
Lastly, I understand shimming under the front and rear suspension blocks would give you anti-dive or pro-dive, but what does it do when you shim the front and rear blocks in the rear with 0.5mm like in your World’s setup?
Thanks a lot again for the precious tips.
06-02-2009, 09:05 AM
#298
Ben,
Good starting point for the droop is 6mm in front and 5mm in rear. I always use this as this works always fine.
Phil,
Thanks for your post, it was nice meeting you in Apeldoorn and I hope you enjoyed it. How I deal with the pressure?
Well I felt really confident with my car so I knew if I drive well Marc can't challenge me for the win.
Richard,
I know most stock guys play a lot with power programs and gearing to get max power. Stock motors usually got little more hot, around 65-70 degree. If you run on wooden floor, you think you have enough traction? Because maybe some guys seems to have more punch but they have more traction?
Chris,
Thanks. I ran a SP 3.5 with 12.5 rotor without fan, timing in middle, gearing 7.97, punch program 5 on the Pearl Nosram speedo.
Carking, Juan and Luis,
Thanks!
3,141592,
I prefer thicker oil when it's hot like in Singapore, 600-700.
Tamiya yellow is really soft and also linear spring which I don't like on asphalt, I use normally HB silver.
C blocks make it much more steering as the front is more narrow. If you find this to difficult to drive, try D and B blocks so you get some armsweep. This give less steering into corner but more in the middle of the corner.
Anti-dive also gives more steering into the corner.
Nick,
Last weekend I didn't run auto brake as this also decrease runtime. Normally I use only program 1 when I need little more steering.
I will post my set-up of the ETS later this evening.
Jilles
Good starting point for the droop is 6mm in front and 5mm in rear. I always use this as this works always fine.
Phil,
Thanks for your post, it was nice meeting you in Apeldoorn and I hope you enjoyed it. How I deal with the pressure?
Well I felt really confident with my car so I knew if I drive well Marc can't challenge me for the win.
Richard,
I know most stock guys play a lot with power programs and gearing to get max power. Stock motors usually got little more hot, around 65-70 degree. If you run on wooden floor, you think you have enough traction? Because maybe some guys seems to have more punch but they have more traction?
Chris,
Thanks. I ran a SP 3.5 with 12.5 rotor without fan, timing in middle, gearing 7.97, punch program 5 on the Pearl Nosram speedo.
Carking, Juan and Luis,
Thanks!
3,141592,
I prefer thicker oil when it's hot like in Singapore, 600-700.
Tamiya yellow is really soft and also linear spring which I don't like on asphalt, I use normally HB silver.
C blocks make it much more steering as the front is more narrow. If you find this to difficult to drive, try D and B blocks so you get some armsweep. This give less steering into corner but more in the middle of the corner.
Anti-dive also gives more steering into the corner.
Nick,
Last weekend I didn't run auto brake as this also decrease runtime. Normally I use only program 1 when I need little more steering.
I will post my set-up of the ETS later this evening.
Jilles
06-02-2009, 09:35 AM
#299
Richard,
I know most stock guys play a lot with power programs and gearing to get max power. Stock motors usually got little more hot, around 65-70 degree. If you run on wooden floor, you think you have enough traction? Because maybe some guys seems to have more punch but they have more traction?
Jilles
I know most stock guys play a lot with power programs and gearing to get max power. Stock motors usually got little more hot, around 65-70 degree. If you run on wooden floor, you think you have enough traction? Because maybe some guys seems to have more punch but they have more traction?
Jilles
Hi Jilles
I offer you my congratulations also! Thankyou for your reply, you may well be correct about the traction. How do increase traction whilst maintaining 2.5 degree toe in on the rear ? If i add any more rear toe then i cant get the rotation quickly enough in the 180 degree bends !
My setup for you to ponder is as follows :-
New tyres every week
My Front Rear block is a 1A and the Rear Rear bock is a 1F - ( 2.5 degree toe in ) much more rear toe in and i cant get the rotation quick enough on the 180 degree bends
NO Roll Bars fitted at all - never used them
Rear springs are the red dot ones and front are yellow dot
30WT oil all round
3 hole pistons all round
droop 3mm front and rear ( im unsure of what effect droop has im ashamed to admit )
ops:-1 camber up front - 2 camber at the back
ride height level front to rear - 5mm on new tyres
zero toe up front
Front spool used
My car is underweight as our club have no weight restrictions. its 175 grammes under the legal brca limit. i thought that this would help ?
Kind regards
Richard Drury UK
