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Old 12-02-2003, 12:19 PM   #391
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Wow, Controversy!!! Nobody has anything positive to say!! Oh well, here comes my opinion on the weekend, straight from the scoring tower.

1. Qualifying was, as previously stated, BRUTAL!!! It was less a result of hacking, and more a result of the FANTASTIC track layout. Thank You Terry Rott and Crew!!!!!!!

2. The Good Stuff. A Lo's win in stock TC was great, Congratulations Alex!! The Mod 12th scale main was a great race, in spite of all the controversy. EIther way you go, Jonny or Dave, you still end up with a true champion....... What More can you say about my man Mike Blackstock? I told you weeks ago he would deliver the Mod TC W and he did. Masters 12th Scale..... Franky just kept on sayin' "5 for me in 2003", so I guess he willed it to happen. Masters TC, VanWag drove a great race, but Ezrow got screwed. It would been great to see those two go at it for the full 5 mins. Then you have the stock 1/12th main, words cannot express how well Dayger, my man MO, and MRS. Blackstock wheeled for that eight mins. It was the MOST EXCITING RACE I've ever had the privelege of calling and I thank all three of them for that.

3. Props. I wanna thank Mr. Bill, Tony Williams, and the rest of the Champs crew for including me in their ELITE group. I wanna thank Mike Smith, and the incomparble Johnny V!! for keeping me covered when it was my turn to take to the track, or work on my wagons.

4. Mad Props. I also need to thank Tony Carrubba for the Swords of Voltage he bestowed upon me POWER PUSH RULES!!!!, Mo Denton for the IMMENSE RIP!! GOT MO??? And of course, Beavis and Bruce Carbone for keeping my Rev.3 one full step ahead of my driving ability all weekend long!!!!!! SPEEDMERCHANT!!
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:31 PM   #392
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this may be a silly question, but why wouldnt you run triple A mains in a National event?
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:33 PM   #393
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Am I missing something in that photo? I can't see any finish line. I can't even see any two cars even close to each other at any point in the photo...

Aside from all that... I thought I heard someone say that neither of the competitors involved had any problems with the way the finnal ruling came out... So then why the controversy?
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:34 PM   #394
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It's not a ROAR event... so if your refering to the tripple main thing in ROAR national racing... it doesn't apply.
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:35 PM   #395
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Cypress-thanks to you for some of the best called qualifiers and races of the weekend.

And you wheeled your Xray and Speedmerchants VERY well. Also thaks for running the late night practice round!!!
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:35 PM   #396
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Quote:
Originally posted by PorscheSuperCup
this may be a silly question, but why wouldnt you run triple A mains in a National event?
The Indoor Champs aer not a National event to say. It does draw racers from all over the world. The format has always been 1 main and it should remain that way.
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:41 PM   #397
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I wasnt trying to make it a ROAR thing, its just that triple mains would eliminate this controversy
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Old 12-02-2003, 12:55 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frank McKinney
That there's one reason why I don't think I've ever missed anything by not going to Cleveland...old equipment, single race mains and controversy every year.

I just watched the frame by frame video again - no matter where the finish line or loop is, David was ahead of John for at least 10-15 feet before the curved section of board (presumably where the checkered tape was).

People I know that were at the race saw video camera owners showing the race "officials" the tapes they'd JUST made and David was still not declared the winner. With this much of a huge controversy still 2 days after the race, there's no more "saving face" for the officials.

Lame!
Wow, Frank. I think triple A-mains kill the tension of any major race. They just make the whole thing an ordeal for the drivers and the race officials, and you're even more likely to end up with controversy. See last year's carpet Oval Nats for an example. 19 turn class Talbot, Domark and Ezrow, and what was it, weeks later when the decision was made? Please, Triple A-mains only complicate the issue.

And as far as the scoring system is concerned, the system is used for one primary reason. RELIABILITY! I have used many other systems in my day, all have they're perks and quirks, but that system is virtually flawless. When you're running a race with 510 entries you wanna make sure the system runs smoothly.
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:00 PM   #399
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Quote:
Originally posted by rayhuang
Cypress-thanks to you for some of the best called qualifiers and races of the weekend.

And you wheeled your Xray and Speedmerchants VERY well. Also thaks for running the late night practice round!!!
Thanks for the Props Ray!! Vicky, Mo, and Dayger almost killed me! That was such an incredible race! You also showed some pretty masterful wheel, but we were nothing compared to our boy Rich Chang!!! Long Live Chang!!!!
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:00 PM   #400
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If anyone else is having issues with downloading and playing my video of the ending ( not a great angle, but if you look closely at the slow mo I thik you can tell who is in front of who) Just right click it...... then, save target as..... then, use windows media player... people have emaield me and told me that works for them.

Sorry for those having issues.
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:03 PM   #401
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You can eliminate controversy by defining a start finish line viewable by everyone including participants. Declare in advance that the car that crosses the finish line first is the winner (regardless of timing). Then videotape the defined line to determine who crosses first.
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:10 PM   #402
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hohwart
You can eliminate controversy by defining a start finish line viewable by everyone including participants. Declare in advance that the car that crosses the finish line first is the winner (regardless of timing). Then videotape the defined line to determine who crosses first.
That's a pretty good call Rick. I wouldn't be too surprised if changes along those lines weren't implemented next year along with quite a few others. The recent rash of dead heats in qualifying and ties in the mains has been pretty unprecedented, though.
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Old 12-02-2003, 02:18 PM   #403
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Default Re: Great info!!!

Quote:
Originally posted by rayhuang
Heres some great info from Hank over at Hobbytalk.

The power output of the transponder makes no difference. What happens when you cross the loop is the time is recorded when the transponder is first picked up. The "counts" of the transponder are recorded as it passes over the loop. The counts are then devided in half and added to the time when the first count is recorded. This way the center of the detection is found which is where the start/finish line should be (in the middle of the loop.

As an example:
Each count (as an example) is spaced .001 second apart. The car starts picking up at 27.500 seconds. The count is 68. Half of 68 is 34 so .034 is added to 27.500 to get you a lap time of 27.534

The same lap with a weaker transponder:
Each count (as an example) is spaced .001 second apart. The car starts picking up at 27.522 seconds. The start time will later because the transponder is weaker and the detection starts later in the loop. The count is 24 (again because the signal is weaker). Half of 24 is 12 so .012 is added to 27.522 to get you a lap time of 27.534

This is the same system that is used in F1, NASCAR and Kart racing and has been proven to be very accurate. All other transponder type timing systems use the same method and I'd go so far as to say it is an international standard.

I would trust a transponder over a person subjective opinion any day. If you rely on video there is way more room for error than with a electronic device. I looked at the video and Orr was ahead for a bit, and since I can tell where the loop is it's hard to say where Spash passed.

Orr wins!
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Old 12-02-2003, 02:19 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally posted by DynoMoHum
Am I missing something in that photo? I can't see any finish line. I can't even see any two cars even close to each other at any point in the photo...
The photo is just of the track, not of any particular race. The tape mark on the straightaway is where the "line" was located. It's just for reference, for those who saw the video and were wondering where the line was located.
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Old 12-02-2003, 02:59 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally posted by CypressMidWest
Wow, Frank. I think triple A-mains kill the tension of any major race. They just make the whole thing an ordeal for the drivers and the race officials, and you're even more likely to end up with controversy. See last year's carpet Oval Nats for an example. 19 turn class Talbot, Domark and Ezrow, and what was it, weeks later when the decision was made? Please, Triple A-mains only complicate the issue.
I just disagree that a race that is such a huge deal should use a single race at the end for the A mains. The ordeal is part of the intensity of the race. We can't have 40-minute electric TC racing but we can simulate that by having multiple races. Go to any race run by Scotty Ernst and you'll see how tension-filled a triple A main can be. A modern scoring system with working transponders doesn't make the racing any more complicated for anyone. It increases the intensity of the racing for the racers, spectators, pit crew and announcers.

But...people put up with it so there you go.

Quote:
And as far as the scoring system is concerned, the system is used for one primary reason. RELIABILITY! I have used many other systems in my day, all have they're perks and quirks, but that system is virtually flawless.
Flawless is AMBrc personal transponders. Powered off the racer's battery and no chance of scoring wrong. Dead heats, inspection delays and timing controversies have no place in a huge multinational race.

Quote:
When you're running a race with 510 entries you wanna make sure the system runs smoothly.
That's another thing - 510 entries and racing after midnight is, well...ludicrous is the word comes to mind. Racers are mentally and physically at their peak during the day or late morning, not hours after a reasonable bedtime when they should be sleeping and preparing for the next day's racing. If anything, the race IMO should be organized over more days and have defined start times of 8 AM and end times of 8 PM, AND/OR have an entry limit.

When there's a big scoring controversy at the end of the weekend and the officials are tired and may not want to deal with reviewing race footage or listening to protests, there's a problem.

Of course, this is all "just my opinion". Obviously there are 510 entries so there are enough people that put up with the problems and come back year after year. However, I think a race that is in its 15th or 20th year of running should improve year after year, not have the same problems year after year.

None of this is meant to bag on you (I'm guessing you were the announcer), unless, of course, you were one of the race officials I'm sure you did your part to run the races as smoothly as possible. But every race and race series could be improved. Hopefully next year Cleveland will be.
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Last edited by Frank McKinney; 12-02-2003 at 03:09 PM.
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