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Old 08-23-2010, 06:19 AM   #5431
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We really need to understand that there is a difference between "grip" and "handling".

People widely confuse the effect of adjustments on "grip" (i.e maximising weight on the tyres) and "handling" (the feel of the car, the "initial grip", the "responsiveness").

Most adjustments that increase grip ALSO make the car feel "sluggish". Most adjusments that make a car feel "responsive" ALSO reduce grip.

This is why we get many posts from accomplished drivers and builders which seem contradictory. Some drivers are tuning for "handling", others are tuning for "grip", that's why you get so many different approaches.

Fast drivers tend to be fast with anything. I'm not a particularly fast driver but my cars drive well. My cars drive well enough for fast drivers to borrow them and knock 0.5sec/lap off my times immediately!

Everyone will have their own approach to setup.

My approach starts with steering lock - I set the car up to turn full circle in the narrowest normal section of the track. I can then click rates up or down from that a little if the car understeers or gets bound up.

I'll usually work from a kit setting unless I feel something is way off (very mismatched wheel rates, weight distribution or geometry)

I'll look at mid-corner balance first, roll-centre and bars have the most discrete effect on that.

Then I'll look at rear traction, spring rates, damping and toe in have a big effect on that. Rarely use anti-squat.

Then I'll look at turn in, front springs and damping have a big effect on that.

There are a whole load of possible adjustments. And there is no substitute for testing them yourself, one adjustment at a time in consistent condition.

That being said, I probably have a slightly different driving style to many, I tend to roll the car through the corners rather point and shoot.

For me, suspension setup is one of the most interesting parts of the hobby. Of course, it is all worthless if you haven't built the car right - thankfully the Photon is very easy to build right. My Scythe has a lot of little tweaks on it to make everything consistent.
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:56 AM   #5432
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Originally Posted by sosidge View Post
We really need to understand that there is a difference between "grip" and "handling".

People widely confuse the effect of adjustments on "grip" (i.e maximising weight on the tyres) and "handling" (the feel of the car, the "initial grip", the "responsiveness").

Most adjustments that increase grip ALSO make the car feel "sluggish". Most adjusments that make a car feel "responsive" ALSO reduce grip.

This is why we get many posts from accomplished drivers and builders which seem contradictory. Some drivers are tuning for "handling", others are tuning for "grip", that's why you get so many different approaches.

Fast drivers tend to be fast with anything. I'm not a particularly fast driver but my cars drive well. My cars drive well enough for fast drivers to borrow them and knock 0.5sec/lap off my times immediately!

Everyone will have their own approach to setup.

My approach starts with steering lock - I set the car up to turn full circle in the narrowest normal section of the track. I can then click rates up or down from that a little if the car understeers or gets bound up.

I'll usually work from a kit setting unless I feel something is way off (very mismatched wheel rates, weight distribution or geometry)

I'll look at mid-corner balance first, roll-centre and bars have the most discrete effect on that.

Then I'll look at rear traction, spring rates, damping and toe in have a big effect on that. Rarely use anti-squat.

Then I'll look at turn in, front springs and damping have a big effect on that.

There are a whole load of possible adjustments. And there is no substitute for testing them yourself, one adjustment at a time in consistent condition.

That being said, I probably have a slightly different driving style to many, I tend to roll the car through the corners rather point and shoot.

For me, suspension setup is one of the most interesting parts of the hobby. Of course, it is all worthless if you haven't built the car right - thankfully the Photon is very easy to build right. My Scythe has a lot of little tweaks on it to make everything consistent.

Very interesting points, I do many things in almost exactly the same way

I do find tuning suspension of toy cars fun but I'm nowhere near mastering it, which is why it is so fascinating. I will need more experience to understand how the adjustments interact with each other

With regard to grip it seems that tyres generate maximum traction at a certain slip angle and by using weight transfer to apply load. So the amount of grip available is dynamic, not fixed, and is changing at each end of the car all the time according to the conditions

The gifted driver actually creates the grip they need, at the point it is needed through pure skill, by loading and slipping the tyre in a certain way, at the perfect moment, making more traction available for a higher percentage of the lap

Years ago I read an incredible book called 'Speed Secrets' by Ross Bentley

Totally fascinating and goes a long way to explaining how some drivers can be so fast
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Old 08-23-2010, 08:16 AM   #5433
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Originally Posted by *SBH* View Post
Hi Hana166
Have You tried moving the weight in Your car? Like more weight in the front or the rear of the car? That changes the way Your car is driving a lot. More weight rear gives more steering, but it can be more tricky to drive. (Feels like a more loose rear end)
Maybe You need the opposite but it's worth trying, and very easy.
Try to make Your car wider in the rear, that helps on the big high speed corners
Yes I have, but the balance seems very good, I have a lot of steering and the car is just about stable.

But I would like more response into fast sweepers

Would a wider rear give more high speed response into sweepers?


The cars turns real sharp at low to medium speed. But at high speed, no

I was thinking to adjust the aero. Reduce rear down force by smaller wing/move wing forward/use LTC-R instead of my speed 6

Hopefully I would gain response at speed

Then I can take a little response away from the car itself by making a change to the suspension to calm the car at low and medium speed, where aero is less influential

Thought it might be worth a try
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Old 08-23-2010, 08:24 AM   #5434
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Originally Posted by hana166 View Post
Yes I have, but the balance seems very good, I have a lot of steering and the car is just about stable.

But I would like more response into fast sweepers

Would a wider rear give more high speed response into sweepers?


The cars turns real sharp at low to medium speed. But at high speed, no

I was thinking to adjust the aero. Reduce rear down force by smaller wing/move wing forward/use LTC-R instead of my speed 6

Hopefully I would gain response at speed

Then I can take a little response away from the car itself by making a change to the suspension to calm the car at low and medium speed, where aero is less influential

Thought it might be worth a try
This comment brings out a good point.

Where you place your wing can change the handling of the car immensely. I Always mount my wing on the TLC-r and the speed 6 with 1 screw in either side mounted between he 2 dimples on he wing and the mount. I have tried it back further and my car did not turn in the sweeper at all, it was terrible. For me the photon almost always has an abundance of rear grip so having the wing back far does not give me the steering I need.

I look at rubber tire setup in terms of chassis roll mostly. How much my car is rolling in different points throughout the turn. This has worked pretty well on rubber tires. I also setup my car based on feel and some people simply cannot drive my setups. I have handed my car to very good drivers and they do not think it has enough rear grip off power for them. But I like to drive on power, I subscribe to the easy in hard out method of driving.
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Old 08-23-2010, 09:36 AM   #5435
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Originally Posted by L.Fairtrace View Post
This comment brings out a good point.

Where you place your wing can change the handling of the car immensely. I Always mount my wing on the TLC-r and the speed 6 with 1 screw in either side mounted between he 2 dimples on he wing and the mount. I have tried it back further and my car did not turn in the sweeper at all, it was terrible. For me the photon almost always has an abundance of rear grip so having the wing back far does not give me the steering I need.

I look at rubber tire setup in terms of chassis roll mostly. How much my car is rolling in different points throughout the turn. This has worked pretty well on rubber tires. I also setup my car based on feel and some people simply cannot drive my setups. I have handed my car to very good drivers and they do not think it has enough rear grip off power for them. But I like to drive on power, I subscribe to the easy in hard out method of driving.
Thanks for your input, helps a lot

I was driving 1/8 onroad before, the body, and where you mount it is a massive part of the package

But these brushless things are hella fast, fast enough for aero to mean something

Also I noticed something odd the last few weeks

My T3 (now sold) with full weight Speed 6 - excellent
With other Speed 6 - spinning out everywhere, undriveable

Took me weeks to work out one was light weight and it didn't like it, xray has not much rear grip. Heavy body slows down the rate of turn, smoothing out the car, preventing spin out. Amazing really

Photon is the opposite. Soon as I fitted the lightweight body, bingo loads of turn in, but the rear grips so well that I'm not spinning out

But into the sweeper still the same problem. Losing entry speed and therefore losing time multiplied all the way down till the end of the next straight

So the LW body adds turn in at low/medium speed and less stable but it must be the aero itself holding the car back from high speed turn in


I use the Protoform wing full size, rear position. Should I leave it and move it forward or cut it down?
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:26 AM   #5436
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I always cut my whole wing to the lowest cut line also.
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:32 AM   #5437
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Cheers gonna try it tomorrow
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Old 08-23-2010, 01:58 PM   #5438
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Great info, guys. But I'm getting a headache just trying to comprehend.
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:11 PM   #5439
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tomorrow have 1 item new option parts release !!
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:18 PM   #5440
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tomorrow have 1 item new option parts release !!
Really?

If you're not going to tell us what it is, why bother telling us that it's happening?
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:35 PM   #5441
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Really?

If you're not going to tell us what it is, why bother telling us that it's happening?
Tomorrow will update post & our web site !
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Old 08-23-2010, 02:38 PM   #5442
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Phew just got back from all weekend of softball tournament for my daughter. Just want to than u all for the shim sizing for the shocks.This forum is awesome. Love my photon. Feel like I'm back in school every time I read all these post Since I'm new to touring car only about a year
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Old 08-23-2010, 07:37 PM   #5443
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Tomorrow will update post & our web site !
Is it a Litemodz cvs ?

I'd be interested to hear if they work in 10th scale as per the theory... Anyone know?
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:52 PM   #5444
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Originally Posted by MikeXray View Post
start with taking out some rear toe.
thanks for your help .. as i said my cars lovely , except for the chicane or fast left/ right movements ..

if i chuck it into a corner , it will slide a bit then just grip , and it does have a of on power push coming out of corners .. the only thing i tried was moving the front shocks inwards one hole at a time , it was better , but when i got to the final it was one hole from being the furthest in and it didnt feel right ..

but ive been told by people at my local outdoor track is that i need to adjust the roll centre , soo im concenplating putting a extra .5 mm shim under the rear inner link , to raise it up a bit ...

i dont want to change the rest of the drive feel too much or make it twitchy or loose ...

what do you pro's think ..
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Old 08-24-2010, 03:38 AM   #5445
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Tomorrow will update post & our web site !

Does it come 2 sets of gears or only 1?
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