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Old 03-04-2009, 04:31 PM   #46
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That is a nice looking Zonda! Who makes that?

As I found out at the Birds carpet is a bit more complex then just mashing the throttle and steering. If you do that your going to blow by the first corner and into a wall. Taking the right line to maximize cornering speed and not over throttling was key. Even being off the slightest bit sacrificed time and track position.
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:28 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by HarryN View Post

I tossed the idea to Mimi and Doug about changing this rule to have a 17.5 LiPo 200mm Pan Car. This should attract a couple more people at The Track to join the class. I know two guys that are thinking of switching over to the 200mm Pan Car class if the LiPo + 17.5 amendment is accepted.
What are you guys thinking of 17.5 lipo in a direct drive pan car. Most tracks are not big enough to run mod TC very well. There are already plenty of people saying TC is to fast in 17.5. If you roll the car out to get the most speed out of the car. Then the cars are way to fast for most drivers.

Round cells are not bad at all. This class should stay 13.5 4 cell. We have used sub c cells since RC has basically started and now all of a sudden they are to hard for people to maintain and charge? It seems like lipo has made lazy Americans even lazier. And they want to stick them in anything RC related.
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Old 03-04-2009, 07:45 PM   #48
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17.5 w/ 2s LiPo is faster than 13.5 w/ 4-cell NiMH hands down. No contest.

21.5 w/ 2s LiPo may well be closer...would be interested in seeing.

Why has no one suggested 13.5 w/ 1s LiPo and 17.5 w/ 4-cell NiMH? Give up about 25% in voltage, gain about 25% in kv...I think this would be the closest combo yet.
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:06 PM   #49
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I want to go fast and I like the realistic bodies. It's a bummer that it costs the manufacturer licensing fees, but I want my car to be a representative sample of the real thing...Not some facsimile that is all tweaked and just plain weird looking. The C6R from Protoform is a great example...It may not take advantage of the lack of a front shock tower in a pan car...but it is representative of the real thing. I like it....I also want to go fast....one has little to do with the other. I want to go as fast as I can with realistic looking bodies. If we all run similar bodies, it takes that out of the equation. I regularly stomp most of the Sophia bodies I run with, even though I know they have an aero and CG advantage. I have been petitioning my local track to allow 2S lipo. I really don't want to run 4 cell and I'm tired of the constant care that they require. I'd love to run 2S lipo and either 17.5 or 13.5. Running 2S lipo and 13.5 is very similar to 10.5 in my touring car....maybe a touch faster. Heck, I'd accept if it goes to 21.5.......(but I really don't want to go below 17.5) I want the cars to look right and go fast--and crap can the round cells!!
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Old 03-04-2009, 08:25 PM   #50
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Thanks for starting a thread where rc body design can be discussed in an open forum. Automotive body design is an inherently subjective topic and will remain that way for ever in my opinion. It’s partly because of our makeup as human beings - we’ll never be in complete agreement on issues that involve “the eye of the beholder” impo. We all have different tastes and perspectives. Consider the venerable Porsche 911 design for example. It’s been an extremely successful car design, but it’s also been loved and hated almost equally for over 50 years and has not changed significantly.

As a guy who’s made his living for 17 years creating miniature automotive designs I’ve concluded that I need to be pretty thick-skinned, because any particular new design I do could have me vilified one minute, and then complimented the next minute. I didn’t have any formal training in this stuff, so I just give it may all, and try to please myself with the end result. If someone else should like my work and purchase it – well, that to me is a bonus. I feel extremely grateful that enough potential customers have liked my work over the years and purchased it, so that I’ve been able to have this enjoyable career for as long as I have.
As a fan of motorsports and the whole topic of aerodynamics (as it relates to cars), I feel my greater strength is in the area of “race body” designs as opposed to scale replica cars. Tamiya, Kyosho and HPI do a wonderful job with the realism aspect, and I’d be hard pressed to ever improve on it. Interestingly, I broke into the rc marketplace by doing oval (stock car) bodies and drag race bodies that were valued for their realism. Go figure.

I’m hoping that I‘ll be able to learn something from you guys in order to improve my craft. I’m the first to admit, there’s always room for improvement. But I still need a few hints or constructive ideas/criticism as too how I can do these bodies better. Many of the comments on this thread and the DB-9 thread were kinda…. “general”. I’m hoping you could be more specific as to what I’ve done right, and what I’ve done wrong in your opinion. Since this whole topic is revolving around the WGT bodies, I’m going to use the PF Sophia as the case study.

Why did I choose to do a relatively obscure body style like an Alfa Romeo Competitione 8C as the first purpose built Protoform WGT body? It was pretty simple for me. Alfa has a long racing heritage, the car is drop dead beautiful impo, and most important, it has a shape that lends itself to be a serious performer in 1/10th scale. Bruce, Frank, AE Bob and the rest of us really wanted this class to "take off". Every part of the rules were very well thought through as well as being very “intentional”. Please recognize, all we had last summer was a concept for a new class – but none of us wanted it to “fizzle out” due to excessive speed or cost. I wanted to do my part and provide a body that would work well on the most diverse set of track surfaces possible. (like on ho-hum club track surfaces) The reason that GT style cars were chosen for bodies was because it was fresh and new, and the number of GT body styles to emulate were vast. I chose the Alfa 8C because the front end would provide a lot of steering with only a little “fudging” of the front body shape. (you know, for those not-so-great club tracks) The Sophia body is a bit slower than it could’ve been, but I was leaning toward a “forgiving” body style in hopes the class would gain a foothold in the rc scene and succeed as a new class. I wanted to produce a body that was easy to drive for a novice or a pro. Simple as that.

Did I “fudge” a bit too far with the shape? I’m not sure – but I’ve been hearing from many of you in the last 24 hours who think I definitely did. Until yesterday I’d only received compliments on the body. As stated on the Parma DB-9 thread, the tire diameters are grossly out of scale in this class. Anywhere from 28 – 33% too small to be a true 1/10th scale for the front and rear respectively. The overall body height has been adjusted down approx 18% just to make the tires “look” a tad larger, and of course make the cars handle better. The 200mm width is also approx 10% too wide to be true scale

So, I’ve posted a few photos for you. When comparing a real 1:1 Alfa 8C to the version I did – where do you think I messed up? Please be specific. I’ve got big shoulders – I can take it – lol.

Thanks for your time and consideration.

Dale Epp - Protoform Race Bodies
Attached Thumbnails
World GT Body Debate Thread-alfaromeo-8c-side.jpg   World GT Body Debate Thread-protoform-sophia1502-side.jpg   World GT Body Debate Thread-alfa-romeo-8c-rear.jpg   World GT Body Debate Thread-protoform-sophia-1502-back.jpg  
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:02 PM   #51
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I didn't even know what the Sophia was based on to know what to compare it to. Chosing an obscure car (relative to the corvette and DB9R) probably gave you more chance at poetic license. Anyway the front and rear are both relatively longer than the 8C and teh car looks squashed (probably due to the tyre size thing). The 8C has a more curvaceous look to it due to the sides of the body tucking in under the car while the Sophia looks like it has the body kit of a Honda Civic ricer both on the front and the sides.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:56 PM   #52
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I'm going to comment on these bodies since they seem to be the ones people point at. Overall, they have a flattened front end, which probably is a major contributor to the complaints.

The Mcallister Ferrari was the first body to catch flak about being disproportionate. I liked it a lot when I first saw it. To me the biggest thing he did wrong was making the nose as long as it is. That along with the slight extension on the tail are what make it look out of proportions. OTOH, the details on the sides are very nice, and the cockpit is pretty close. Also, the "bustle" of the rear quarter is pretty scale to the car.

When I first saw pictures of the Sofia, I thought it was a reworked Corvette. Until someone posted the real Alfa, I didn't see what it was based on. Much like the Ferrari, the lengthening of the car makes it look less scale. It's also pretty slammed. The cockpit shape is actually very nice looking, very close to me, though it is moved back to probably get more downforce (?). The shape of the hood from a front perspective is great too, even though it is low. I think the other thing is that the rear quarter is pretty low compared to the real car, which again, hurts the scale look.

The Parma actually does a nice job keeping the rear end pretty close in proportion. The front end is actually kinda proportional, but it's squished down, making it look unlike the real car. The cockpit is also moved back, and the shape changed, probably for more downforce again. It's also pretty slab sided too compared to the real thing.

This is an example of what I really like

The thing about this is that is pretty darn close to the real car and it works fine. Even if the wheels look a bit funny at 2.15", I can live with that more than the bodies getting crazy looking.

These three bodies I have seen work on 4wd cars for a GT class, but they are not on the WGT list. Tamiya has a corvette and a ferrari that are both supoosed to be really good, but again, they are not on there.

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Old 03-04-2009, 09:57 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
That is a nice looking Zonda! Who makes that?
It's an HPI body, believe it or not. Thanks for the compliment.

I'd actually like to be able to do bodies for you guys. I think I can bring something different to the table than the usual airbrush bombs that you guys are used to seeing.

Dale: the thing that strikes me about the sophia body is it looks kind of like an amalgamation of a C6 and a 911. the lower rear is the worst offender because it looks like it's straight off the TC blob bodies. Perhaps if you raised the front end of the hood a bit and rounded the rear end, it would look more recognizable as an Aston Martin. HPI decided with the Zonda to include a rear diffuser. Perhaps you can do the same thing. A few touches you could add is enhance the window trim some by making it more pronounced, enhance the body line from the front quarter panel to door, and make the door line more distinct and rounded. The rear honches look like they could be rounded out more aswell. As it stands it almost looks like a straight line on the sophia body. One last thing; you could try pulling the front of the cockpit forward just a bit to almost match the position of the windshield to the front wheels.

Last edited by Sabin; 03-04-2009 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:08 PM   #54
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Out of curiosity, I went ahead and scaled the Sophia to the 8C's dimensions to do a side by side comparison. I was actually pretty shocked to see how close the Sophia and 8C were once scaled properly. The shapes are almost identical, body lines are in the right places... I could go on, but you get the picture. The only major difference I saw was in the front where it had been "fudged" as Dale mentioned above. And even that is not THAT for off. Also, the wheel wells were slightly off. But again, that goes back to what Dale said above.

The second comparison I did was with the newly scaled Sophia and the original. I replaced the wheels on the scaled Sophia with the original wheels and set the heights equal. After laughing to myself for a few seconds, I had an interesting thought... With the "correct" dimensions, the wheelbase seems closer to that of the 12th scale cars. Of course, this is not going to be true for all bodies. But it is an interesting thought to me at least.

This is all of course my own personal opinion so take it how you will. I went ahead and attached the two comparisons so everyone can draw their own conclusions.
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World GT Body Debate Thread-protoform-sophiacompare2.jpg   World GT Body Debate Thread-protoform-sophiacompare1.jpg  
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Old 03-04-2009, 10:28 PM   #55
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Dale, I think the Sophia is a nice shell, but my question is this...

Why, when it was clear from Scotty's original Rules that he was including cars that raced in GT classes around the World, did you pick a car that doesn't race in that class; in fact, doesn't race at all?

The concern here is not the quality of the shell compared to the original, it is that we are having a discussion about this shell when the car itself does not meet the spirit of what Scotty is trying to achieve. Scotty even went as far as approving two bodies you never released in order to keep to cars that race full-size!

My interest isn't how good a shell the Sophia is or isn't, it is why you moved away from the spirit of what Scotty originally intended.
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Old 03-05-2009, 01:51 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by HarryN View Post

But I would be fine with that part since we can blame it on setups (as in the racer's worry to figure out). I just don't want this class to be "blob" or "wedge" only.
Well the width and wheelbase differences also lends toward the distorted look of the bodies.
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Old 03-05-2009, 02:06 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Sabin View Post
It's an HPI body, believe it or not. Thanks for the compliment.
I really like how HPI did the wing mount on that. I understand molding the mount into the body is more cost effective and probably a good deal stronger then using actual wing mount pieces...but it just doesn't look as good. That's one thing I really like about the Mulsanne too. If it really came down to it I'd rather use the old wing wire and buttons to attach the wings to the car then the ones molded into a body.
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Old 03-05-2009, 04:20 AM   #58
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*Just an observation from a non-WGT racer*

It appears to me with the Parma Aston and the PF Sophia, that the whole bonnet/nose area is just too long and low, you wouldn't be able to believe that there was a engine under it if it was scaled up. If these were higher (and thus, the rest of the body), it'd certainly help (though not with handling...).

Take the Parma Aston, the headlights are level with the wheelnuts, whereas the Kyosho Aston has the headlights above the wheelnuts, just like the real DBR9. Its got that whole duck-billed platypus thing going on at the front... Actually, its Psyduck!

Props to Dale for putting his point across though, its not everyday that stuff is explained in a way that Joe-Racer can understand and possibly influence (BTW Dale, please PLEASE do some Euro-Touring car bodies! BMW 320si, Vauxhall Insignia etc ).
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:19 AM   #59
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Just to clarify a little the 8C has a very long racing heritage. Just before the bottom dropped out of the auto industry Alfa announced a plan to run in the FIA GT2 class for 2008.

Never happened... Probably because of the downturn.
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Old 03-05-2009, 05:43 AM   #60
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So everyone knows, there is the WGT body rule that states: Minimum dimension, center base of windshield to intersection of hood and front grill 135mm. The Sophia and DB9 are very close if not exactly that. So when you say the cockpit (I love that word) is moved back it is actually as far foward as the rules allow.

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