Should Stock Brushed Motors go away in higher level events?
12-25-2008, 10:13 AM
#91
12-25-2008, 03:07 PM
#92
Well after having made the jump to brushless, (I was forced to, as the events I actually can make it to are all brushless), and running at a major event several things have become apparent to me.
1. Racers will push the envelope regardless of "format". How do I know this? I actually saw people using a DYNO to go through BRUSHLESS motors!!! And not just motors, Speed controls too. So now we're dynoing two pieces of equipment to find the absolute best of each.
2. A bad brushless motor is pretty much a paper weight. You could try a new rotor, but hell, they cost as much as a good brushed stock motor. You can't change brushes and try to tune the motor, it either has pull, or doesn't.....
3. The fast ten, are still the fast ten. They still build better than you, and drive better than you, so the motor STILL isn't the deciding factor.
4. 3 handout brushed motors equal the price of ONE brushless motor. Yeah, brushes cost $3 a pair blah blah blah......
5. Getting a good fast brushless motor/speedo combo is PRICELESS. Not having to true comms is nice, saved me probably
15 mins. per class, per round at Cleveland.
Question: If people are still dynoing motors, and tuning the speedos with laptops, and you have guys going through rotors to find the strongest ones, and matching them with the lowest inductance cans, what have we accomplished?
Answer: NOTHING!!!
I'm not complaining, brushless or brushed, I'm still gonna race. All I'm pointing out is that brushless is absolutely NO LESS EXPENSIVE than brushed, and if ya wanna be in with the fast crowd, you're still doing just as much work. The C-main club crowd is probably better off, because they can be lazy, run one motor all season, and never peel it outta the car. Of course these same guys could run a stock motor for two weeks straight with no real increase in lap times. Some of these guys maybe faster after the brushed motor falls off.
Racing is racing folks, welcome to it. Let's all stop kidding ourselves into believing that technology is gonna make racing cheaper, and easier. It NEVER gets cheaper OR easier..........
1. Racers will push the envelope regardless of "format". How do I know this? I actually saw people using a DYNO to go through BRUSHLESS motors!!! And not just motors, Speed controls too. So now we're dynoing two pieces of equipment to find the absolute best of each.
2. A bad brushless motor is pretty much a paper weight. You could try a new rotor, but hell, they cost as much as a good brushed stock motor. You can't change brushes and try to tune the motor, it either has pull, or doesn't.....
3. The fast ten, are still the fast ten. They still build better than you, and drive better than you, so the motor STILL isn't the deciding factor.
4. 3 handout brushed motors equal the price of ONE brushless motor. Yeah, brushes cost $3 a pair blah blah blah......
5. Getting a good fast brushless motor/speedo combo is PRICELESS. Not having to true comms is nice, saved me probably
15 mins. per class, per round at Cleveland.
Question: If people are still dynoing motors, and tuning the speedos with laptops, and you have guys going through rotors to find the strongest ones, and matching them with the lowest inductance cans, what have we accomplished?
Answer: NOTHING!!!
I'm not complaining, brushless or brushed, I'm still gonna race. All I'm pointing out is that brushless is absolutely NO LESS EXPENSIVE than brushed, and if ya wanna be in with the fast crowd, you're still doing just as much work. The C-main club crowd is probably better off, because they can be lazy, run one motor all season, and never peel it outta the car. Of course these same guys could run a stock motor for two weeks straight with no real increase in lap times. Some of these guys maybe faster after the brushed motor falls off.
Racing is racing folks, welcome to it. Let's all stop kidding ourselves into believing that technology is gonna make racing cheaper, and easier. It NEVER gets cheaper OR easier..........
12-25-2008, 08:23 PM
#93
Tech Initiate
Threads like this are the reason 1/8 Nitro is growing as fast as it is.
12-25-2008, 11:27 PM
#95
I don't quite see the benefit of a rule change on brushed/brushless at this time. Its probably inevitable, but if someone wants to run brushed or can't afford to convert they should be allowed to run brushed until the point it is impractical from a rules maintenance / race management standpoint. Even though I don't think a rule change would have a trickle down effect to club racing for a while, anything coming from ROAR should be especially sensitive to cost pressures given the current economic climate.
ps As far as the completely off topic discussion on classes (to which I will now contribute) - TA, 17.5, 13.5 and sportsman (if we need it) are the primary club classes around here in SE WI / NE IL and it works out pretty d*** well. A speed and driving skill class to match your own level. The guys in 13.5 can race without having to work around newbs and the newbs can have a lot of fun without having to worry about being a speed bump. Throwing everybody in together in 1 motor class just doesn't make sense to me. Why should we have to waste 2 or 3 rounds of qualifying to get people sorted out? It just doesn't seem fun for a rookie to have to worry about getting in, say, Josh H's way all the time. I have lived on both sides of that equation (mostly the slow one) and its not fun to always be slowest. Everyone needs to have a good time for the entire event - every heat, not just the fast guys. The primary consideration for this hobby should be how to make everyone feel included, not excluded. I think some of the old hands tend to forget that.
There are several guys at our local track who have been afraid to come out and race because they think they are too slow / too bad because they were showing up to practice when more experienced racers were there. As soon as we can get them out into a sportsman race they're hooked. No one should be afraid to go to a race because they think there is no place for them.
ps As far as the completely off topic discussion on classes (to which I will now contribute) - TA, 17.5, 13.5 and sportsman (if we need it) are the primary club classes around here in SE WI / NE IL and it works out pretty d*** well. A speed and driving skill class to match your own level. The guys in 13.5 can race without having to work around newbs and the newbs can have a lot of fun without having to worry about being a speed bump. Throwing everybody in together in 1 motor class just doesn't make sense to me. Why should we have to waste 2 or 3 rounds of qualifying to get people sorted out? It just doesn't seem fun for a rookie to have to worry about getting in, say, Josh H's way all the time. I have lived on both sides of that equation (mostly the slow one) and its not fun to always be slowest. Everyone needs to have a good time for the entire event - every heat, not just the fast guys. The primary consideration for this hobby should be how to make everyone feel included, not excluded. I think some of the old hands tend to forget that.
There are several guys at our local track who have been afraid to come out and race because they think they are too slow / too bad because they were showing up to practice when more experienced racers were there. As soon as we can get them out into a sportsman race they're hooked. No one should be afraid to go to a race because they think there is no place for them.
12-26-2008, 12:45 AM
#96
should-stock-brushed-motors-go-away-higher-level-events
In origin I'll go with: a matter of supply and demand.
If there are enough racers who'ld like to race brushed, also run brushed.
My personal opinion is that brushed should have it's own place/class at events.
Not mixed classes! Since the way a brushed motor vs BL allways will handle differently.
In origin I'll go with: a matter of supply and demand.
If there are enough racers who'ld like to race brushed, also run brushed.
My personal opinion is that brushed should have it's own place/class at events.
Not mixed classes! Since the way a brushed motor vs BL allways will handle differently.
12-26-2008, 03:43 AM
#97
12-26-2008, 03:52 AM
#98
I don't quite see the benefit of a rule change on brushed/brushless at this time. Its probably inevitable, but if someone wants to run brushed or can't afford to convert they should be allowed to run brushed until the point it is impractical from a rules maintenance / race management standpoint. Even though I don't think a rule change would have a trickle down effect to club racing for a while, anything coming from ROAR should be especially sensitive to cost pressures given the current economic climate.
Those are great classes but from what I've seen a lot of tracks don't have the turnout for that many classes so it's mix every one up. That said this proposal should have no effect on the club scene.
12-26-2008, 04:38 AM
#99
CypressMidWest mentioned dynos. Here's my experience.
Over the years I've known people who will spare no expense trying to go faster. Several of them purchased the $600 Competition Electronics dyno, hooked up to a laptop and everything. They would spend hours with a motor getting the dyno numbers into the unheard of category. They put that motor in the car, and it's an absolute dog! Slower than when it first came out of the package. Then they started tuning the motors to how best they ran in the cars, then put them on the dyno. And according to the dyno the motor sucked! I haven't seen a motor dyno in 2 years.
Over the years I've known people who will spare no expense trying to go faster. Several of them purchased the $600 Competition Electronics dyno, hooked up to a laptop and everything. They would spend hours with a motor getting the dyno numbers into the unheard of category. They put that motor in the car, and it's an absolute dog! Slower than when it first came out of the package. Then they started tuning the motors to how best they ran in the cars, then put them on the dyno. And according to the dyno the motor sucked! I haven't seen a motor dyno in 2 years.
12-26-2008, 05:31 AM
#100
Jiml....
I say no more brushed/brushless mix also..Keep it simple and gain arcers back!!
I say no more brushed/brushless mix also..Keep it simple and gain arcers back!!
12-26-2008, 11:58 AM
#101
Here's my opinion, fwiw.
Do I miss brushed motors? Personally, yes and no. It was more work, but I enjoyed it. And, as a rule, those that put in the work, and put more time into the hobby were rewarded for it. And I enjoyed that.
Why shouldn't you be rewarded for your efforts and dedication? Shouldn't a person that puts in the time and effort be shown it's value? This is racing, not a car show. The goal of racing is to be fast. If you don't put in the time, guess what others are. That's racing.
If a person wants to race a brushed motor, let 'em. Why should anybody care? They were legal when brushless started to infiltrate. Nobody gripes when a guy with a 5 year old chassis races. Why would there be a gripe about running an older motor?
But it's a shame that brushed motors were never given the same "fair shake" that we allowed brushless, like a 3 time higher retail, bearings in the stock motors, etc.
A hobby is something you do to fill your spare time. If we keep taking things away from the this hobby, well.... looks like we're gonna have to find another hobby to fill our spare time.
Brushed motors... Let 'em "continue" to run.
<---proudly assembled the last 4 kits I put together this month... painted them too.
Do I miss brushed motors? Personally, yes and no. It was more work, but I enjoyed it. And, as a rule, those that put in the work, and put more time into the hobby were rewarded for it. And I enjoyed that.
Why shouldn't you be rewarded for your efforts and dedication? Shouldn't a person that puts in the time and effort be shown it's value? This is racing, not a car show. The goal of racing is to be fast. If you don't put in the time, guess what others are. That's racing.
If a person wants to race a brushed motor, let 'em. Why should anybody care? They were legal when brushless started to infiltrate. Nobody gripes when a guy with a 5 year old chassis races. Why would there be a gripe about running an older motor?
But it's a shame that brushed motors were never given the same "fair shake" that we allowed brushless, like a 3 time higher retail, bearings in the stock motors, etc.
A hobby is something you do to fill your spare time. If we keep taking things away from the this hobby, well.... looks like we're gonna have to find another hobby to fill our spare time.
Brushed motors... Let 'em "continue" to run.
<---proudly assembled the last 4 kits I put together this month... painted them too.
12-26-2008, 12:17 PM
#102
well I know I'm not smyka, gerber, cuffs, etc in the stock racing world, but I gave up dynoing motors once we went brushless....
I run an lrp speedo which to me was the fastest at the time... and I have run novak or trinity motors and geared them accordingly. My car wasn't a rocket compared to others but I made all 3 mains at cleveland and never so much as touched the motors and THAT let me concentrate on the cars instead of motor. I finished 3rd in 17.5 12th, 3rd in world gt, and 6th in 13.5 12th... that + no motor tuning or cutting = a happy racer LOL
People put WAY too much emphasis on motors. if your car isn't dialed a motor means very little. Your car has to be good to truly reap the benefits of a good motor unless the only place you are gaining any advantage is on the straight and last I checked we weren't drag racing. So I'm looking for corner speed....
with that said.. I vote for brushless only, I hope to never cut another motor again
I run an lrp speedo which to me was the fastest at the time... and I have run novak or trinity motors and geared them accordingly. My car wasn't a rocket compared to others but I made all 3 mains at cleveland and never so much as touched the motors and THAT let me concentrate on the cars instead of motor. I finished 3rd in 17.5 12th, 3rd in world gt, and 6th in 13.5 12th... that + no motor tuning or cutting = a happy racer LOL
People put WAY too much emphasis on motors. if your car isn't dialed a motor means very little. Your car has to be good to truly reap the benefits of a good motor unless the only place you are gaining any advantage is on the straight and last I checked we weren't drag racing. So I'm looking for corner speed....
with that said.. I vote for brushless only, I hope to never cut another motor again
12-26-2008, 01:41 PM
#104
The reason for this thread is the HIGHER LEVEL events. First the cost of going brushless is a drop in the bucket to Travel expenses, hotels, tire budget, and fresh batteries, lots of brushes, and fresh brushed motors. Second I think brushless only would be a cost savings for most. This issue arose ofer the current weight limit which if left alone gives a distinct advantage to brushed, meaning at Higher level events if one fast guy has it anyone else wishing to compete with him will have to convert back to brushless and possibly replace all the gear they sold last year.
Those are great classes but from what I've seen a lot of tracks don't have the turnout for that many classes so it's mix every one up. That said this proposal should have no effect on the club scene.
Those are great classes but from what I've seen a lot of tracks don't have the turnout for that many classes so it's mix every one up. That said this proposal should have no effect on the club scene.
12-26-2008, 03:28 PM
#105
As long as they up the weight limit accordingly to the new brushless weight that cleveland and vegas did I would have no problem with brushed motors running....
Otherwise if I run the nats I guess I'll be cutting motors or maybe just stay home...
The class needs to be equal for both any way you look at it...
Otherwise if I run the nats I guess I'll be cutting motors or maybe just stay home...
The class needs to be equal for both any way you look at it...