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Old 04-25-2016, 12:38 PM   #9241
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If that was good.... Try all screws in the brace, you'll have more corner speed
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RacerLog wiki Awesomatix A700 / 2wd offroad 4 life
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Old 04-25-2016, 07:26 PM   #9242
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Thumbs up Great weekend at Tamiya

Howdy my fellow Awesomatixians. Had a chance to do some testing at the Tamiya USA track over the weekend, and wanted to share my findings. I'm going to be running 17.5 at the Reedy TC race being held at Tamiya in May, and I have been unsure which car I want to run; shaft or belt? So I setup both cars with near identical electronics and setup. Both cars running Reedy ESCs with two Team Powers motors set to produce similar numbers on an analyzer with identical FDR. I ran the same body, tires, and battery for all runs. Both cars were completely rebuilt with new bearings and fresh grease/oil, and both weighed in at 1390 race-ready (weight added to both, and balanced with a 4 corner scale) sporting carbon chassis.

I drove both cars using the same line, but at the end of it all the A700 was able to pull off .2 faster lap time, with .1 faster average time over a 7 minute practice run. Throughout the weekend my average lap times were within a tenth or two of my fast lap, so both cars were extremely consistent.

Both cars were stuck to the track (the track was incredible on Saturday; perfect conditions and high grip all day) but the A800 was noticeably easier to drive and seemed impossible to get out of whack. This would be the car to drive if I was super nervous about making a mistake and just wanted something easier to drive and completely predictable.

On the A700 if you really irresponsibly hammered the throttle at the wrong time the rear end would step out, but this seemed like an acceptable trade off for how noticeably quicker it was accelerating out of turns with proper throttle application. I didn't have either motor dialed for optimum performance, I just wanted them to run as similar as possible, and even with the same FDR the A700 was able to hang better with other cars in the straight. Even though the A700 felt quicker, it came off the track 10-15 degrees (F) cooler than the 800.

So, while I couldn't love my A800 more in mod, the good old A700 is still my choice for asphalt stock racing.

Here's a link to my setup

Edit: One final thought as I re-read my post was "of course the shaft car would do ok with an underpowered motor", so I just wanted to point out that even after dropping in the properly tuned motor I plan to run at Reedy the A700 had no on throttle traction issues whatsoever (and I lowered my fast lap another .4)
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Old 04-25-2016, 07:54 PM   #9243
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I'm still rocking my A700 Evo 1.5 for 17.5 racing. The D2.1 dampers were a great upgrade for asphalt. I kind of wish there would be an updated car from the Evo 2 with some of the latest refinement parts.

I'm debating still on getting the GD2 rear diff.
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Old 04-25-2016, 08:55 PM   #9244
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You could gear the A700 three to four teeth higher on the pinion then the A800 and still run cooler and faster...Did you remove the rubber bearing seals??? If not, you got more speed in that A700... Teflon sealed ceramic bearings is what's needed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesRaven View Post
Howdy my fellow Awesomatixians. Had a chance to do some testing at the Tamiya USA track over the weekend, and wanted to share my findings. I'm going to be running 17.5 at the Reedy TC race being held at Tamiya in May, and I have been unsure which car I want to run; shaft or belt? So I setup both cars with near identical electronics and setup. Both cars running Reedy ESCs with two Team Powers motors set to produce similar numbers on an analyzer with identical FDR. I ran the same body, tires, and battery for all runs. Both cars were completely rebuilt with new bearings and fresh grease/oil, and both weighed in at 1390 race-ready (weight added to both, and balanced with a 4 corner scale) sporting carbon chassis.

I drove both cars using the same line, but at the end of it all the A700 was able to pull off .2 faster lap time, with .1 faster average time over a 7 minute practice run. Throughout the weekend my average lap times were within a tenth or two of my fast lap, so both cars were extremely consistent.

Both cars were stuck to the track (the track was incredible on Saturday; perfect conditions and high grip all day) but the A800 was noticeably easier to drive and seemed impossible to get out of whack. This would be the car to drive if I was super nervous about making a mistake and just wanted something easier to drive and completely predictable.

On the A700 if you really irresponsibly hammered the throttle at the wrong time the rear end would step out, but this seemed like an acceptable trade off for how noticeably quicker it was accelerating out of turns with proper throttle application. I didn't have either motor dialed for optimum performance, I just wanted them to run as similar as possible, and even with the same FDR the A700 was able to hang better with other cars in the straight. Even though the A700 felt quicker, it came off the track 10-15 degrees (F) cooler than the 800.

So, while I couldn't love my A800 more in mod, the good old A700 is still my choice for asphalt stock racing.

Here's a link to my setup

Edit: One final thought as I re-read my post was "of course the shaft car would do ok with an underpowered motor", so I just wanted to point out that even after dropping in the properly tuned motor I plan to run at Reedy the A700 had no on throttle traction issues whatsoever (and I lowered my fast lap another .4)
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:05 PM   #9245
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Hi WesRaven, are you bragging about your cars or your driving capabilities? All kidding aside, sounds like you have plenty of driving time in to notice the differences or lack of differences between the two cars.
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:50 PM   #9246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1spunspur View Post
Hi WesRaven, are you bragging about your cars or your driving capabilities? All kidding aside, sounds like you have plenty of driving time in to notice the differences or lack of differences between the two cars.
haha Lets say 70% the cars, 20% the ideal test conditions, and 10% my driving Most of the zeal comes from the fact that I've been practicing with a TRF 419 at Tamiya since you have to run a Tamiya brand car there (unless they are having an open chassis race) so I went into this test with a real fear in the back of my mind that I would be faster with the TRF or be more comfortable with it with amount of extra track time I've had with it there. That fear has been safely put to rest. The extra corner speed out of the Ax cars is pretty crazy.

As far as my driving goes, I specifically didn't post exact lap times because I wasn't sure if they would be comical to some Even though I have to admit I was pleased with how consistent I was running, I only point this out so people know the results were repeatable and pretty consistent. In other words, I don't think the 700 won because of dumb luck. I've tried this test before before, but between track changes and other various factors I didn't find the results to be conclusive enough to be noteworthy.

The belt vs shaft battle is one of the oldest I can think of with touring cars. I've always wanted to do a direct comparison, but never had two cars similar enough and the test conditions to say for sure up until now. This is definitely far from conclusive and completely my own opinion/impression, but will help when I get asked the very common question of "should I buy the belt or shaft car?".
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Last edited by WesRaven; 04-25-2016 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 04-25-2016, 10:00 PM   #9247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertrandsv87 View Post
Did you remove the rubber bearing seals??? If not, you got more speed in that A700... Teflon sealed ceramic bearings is what's needed...
I used the same new metal shielded Yeah Racing bearings in both cars to put them on an even playing field. Not ideal I know, but I was more interested in testing the design differences, so I tried to eliminate as many other factors as reasonably possible. I would agree and say the 700 would receive an even greater advantage with better bearings since it uses more of them and that's probably the main source of drag. I use dry Teflon lubricant on the metal gears.
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Old 04-26-2016, 03:53 AM   #9248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesRaven View Post
Howdy my fellow Awesomatixians. Had a chance to do some testing at the Tamiya USA track over the weekend, and wanted to share my findings. I'm going to be running 17.5 at the Reedy TC race being held at Tamiya in May, and I have been unsure which car I want to run; shaft or belt? So I setup both cars with near identical electronics and setup. Both cars running Reedy ESCs with two Team Powers motors set to produce similar numbers on an analyzer with identical FDR. I ran the same body, tires, and battery for all runs. Both cars were completely rebuilt with new bearings and fresh grease/oil, and both weighed in at 1390 race-ready (weight added to both, and balanced with a 4 corner scale) sporting carbon chassis.

I drove both cars using the same line, but at the end of it all the A700 was able to pull off .2 faster lap time, with .1 faster average time over a 7 minute practice run. Throughout the weekend my average lap times were within a tenth or two of my fast lap, so both cars were extremely consistent.

Both cars were stuck to the track (the track was incredible on Saturday; perfect conditions and high grip all day) but the A800 was noticeably easier to drive and seemed impossible to get out of whack. This would be the car to drive if I was super nervous about making a mistake and just wanted something easier to drive and completely predictable.

On the A700 if you really irresponsibly hammered the throttle at the wrong time the rear end would step out, but this seemed like an acceptable trade off for how noticeably quicker it was accelerating out of turns with proper throttle application. I didn't have either motor dialed for optimum performance, I just wanted them to run as similar as possible, and even with the same FDR the A700 was able to hang better with other cars in the straight. Even though the A700 felt quicker, it came off the track 10-15 degrees (F) cooler than the 800.

So, while I couldn't love my A800 more in mod, the good old A700 is still my choice for asphalt stock racing.

Here's a link to my setup

Edit: One final thought as I re-read my post was "of course the shaft car would do ok with an underpowered motor", so I just wanted to point out that even after dropping in the properly tuned motor I plan to run at Reedy the A700 had no on throttle traction issues whatsoever (and I lowered my fast lap another .4)
Weirdly, I just did a similar exercise this weekend in the UK on my club track. Although with slightly different electrics (muchmore fleta pro in a800 and reds racing tx120 in evo2), I ran the same setup on my evo2 and a800 Carbon, with identical gearing etc in 13.5 boosted. On this particular circuit the a700 evo2 with the flexible alloy chassis felt faster.

I did about 5 runs on each car, making specific changes to improve each car. The evo2 felt like it rotated in the corners quicker, with a more planted rear on turn in than the a800. The track is unprepared and very low traction, with no additive allowed, so this might be down to the increased flex in the softer alloy chassis.

I'm convinced I could have worked on the a800 and made it as fast with more time, but on this track the a700 was dialled in quicker and gave me the TQ and win on the day.

Good to know that both cars are relevant, and both have their strengths. It seems very circuit dependent so I'll be taking both with me to the Nationals. The a800 was faster than the evo2 at the recent Cotswolds national, and there are some drastically different circuits on the calendar to come. Looking forward to seeing which is best next time.
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Old 05-06-2016, 02:22 PM   #9249
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Has anyone had any problems with am23 bending? If I get hit on a rear wheel am23 will bend/twist and I have a lot of toe on that wheel. I wonder if it because I run a lot of shims (around 5mm) on the ball stud to maintain a constant toe angle throught the suspension travel. How many shims do people use on the rear am23/st24?

Also has anyone tried the new spr02h yet? I'm thinking of buying them as I broke a spr02 as well as bent a spring when the travel up stop limiter broke after I got hit at the end of a straight last weekend
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Old 05-06-2016, 03:19 PM   #9250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielc3009 View Post
Has anyone had any problems with am23 bending? If I get hit on a rear wheel am23 will bend/twist and I have a lot of toe on that wheel. I wonder if it because I run a lot of shims (around 5mm) on the ball stud to maintain a constant toe angle throught the suspension travel. How many shims do people use on the rear am23/st24?
I havn't bent my back steering arms yet (only the front after many impacts) but I can see how that would happen with 5mm of shims; that's a lot of leverage. I'm only running 2.75. Just a suggestion; If you go with more short caster in the back you wouldn't need so many shims.

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Also has anyone tried the new spr02h yet? I'm thinking of buying them as I broke a spr02 as well as bent a spring when the travel up stop limiter broke after I got hit at the end of a straight last weekend
I'm running the new SPR02H on both my 700 and 800 and love them. I no longer have to slightly bend and adjust the old SPR02 to get a nice tight fit on the SP05 every time I rebuild my car.

The only issue I've had is since they are slightly longer than the SPR02 they will hit the P04 if you slide the damper out much farther than 4mm. I'm going to try to resolve this by putting thicker oil in my dampers so I can back the dampening setting off a bit.
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Old 05-06-2016, 03:44 PM   #9251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesRaven View Post
I havn't bent my back steering arms yet (only the front after many impacts) but I can see how that would happen with 5mm of shims; that's a lot of leverage. I'm only running 2.75. Just a suggestion; If you go with more short caster in the back you wouldn't need so many shims.



I'm running the new SPR02H on both my 700 and 800 and love them. I no longer have to slightly bend and adjust the old SPR02 to get a nice tight fit on the SP05 every time I rebuild my car.

The only issue I've had is since they are slightly longer than the SPR02 they will hit the P04 if you slide the damper out much farther than 4mm. I'm going to try to resolve this by putting thicker oil in my dampers so I can back the dampening setting off a bit.
I'm running 4 degrees of caster to shorten the wheelbase already. This has started since I fitted the RFG. I need to run 2.5mm shims on the inner st24 and about 5mm on the outer to get a constant toe as the suspension compresses and so the link misses am83 at full compression. I'm using about 30mm up travel (measured at the bottom of the axle) is that ok or should I use less.

I'd like to adjust the rear bump steer so the wheels toe in as the rear lifts to get more rear grip at corner entry. Am I right in think I'll need more shims on the outer st24 to achieve this and possibly make the problem worse.

With Spr02h do they touch am17l/r for up the travel stop or do you still use the screws in p12?
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:25 PM   #9252
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Originally Posted by danielc3009 View Post
I'm running 4 degrees of caster to shorten the wheelbase already. This has started since I fitted the RFG. I need to run 2.5mm shims on the inner st24 and about 5mm on the outer to get a constant toe as the suspension compresses and so the link misses am83 at full compression. I'm using about 30mm up travel (measured at the bottom of the axle) is that ok or should I use less.

I'd like to adjust the rear bump steer so the wheels toe in as the rear lifts to get more rear grip at corner entry. Am I right in think I'll need more shims on the outer st24 to achieve this and possibly make the problem worse.

With Spr02h do they touch am17l/r for up the travel stop or do you still use the screws in p12?
I don't have the RFG, so I'm not sure how that may impact shimming and clearances unfortunately. But in general I don't really measure my upstop, I simply make sure it doesn't allow the SPR02 to go up so far all the stress is on the SPR02 and AM17.

I have not tried going that direction in rear bump steer, so I can't comment on that setting specifically, but I would use a setup station to make sure I'm shimming the right direction. Check the toe at standard ride height, then press the chassis down/lift it up and check the toe again.

The SPR02H still touches the AM17 just like the original units, but I do still use my upstop screws just to spread the stress of the impact if the suspension goes up that high.

Edit; I'm curious what your opinion/insight is on the RFG and what surfaces you have tried it on. I have been considering getting one but on the fence. Haven't really seen a whole lot of feedback on it.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:38 PM   #9253
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:41 PM   #9254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesRaven View Post
I don't have the RFG, so I'm not sure how that may impact shimming and clearances unfortunately. But in general I don't really measure my upstop, I simply make sure it doesn't allow the SPR02 to go up so far all the stress is on the SPR02 and AM17.

I have not tried going that direction in rear bump steer, so I can't comment on that setting specifically, but I would use a setup station to make sure I'm shimming the right direction. Check the toe at standard ride height, then press the chassis down/lift it up and check the toe again.

The SPR02H still touches the AM17 just like the original units, but I do still use my upstop screws just to spread the stress of the impact if the suspension goes up that high.

Edit; I'm curious what your opinion/insight is on the RFG and what surfaces you have tried it on. I have been considering getting one but on the fence. Haven't really seen a whole lot of feedback on it.
It does seam to increase rear grip. The first time I ran it, it was on low grip carpet and I didn't change the set up on the car. The car had lots of rear grip and under steered for about 3 minutes then the rear tyres started squealing due to over heating and lost grip. I've now got a team drivers setup for the RFG on my car and it goes really well.

I never got on with it on high grip carpet. The back end would let go at corner entry on high speed sweepers, but I think it was a setup issue. The car had a loose rear end before and the RFG made the problem worse, possible again to overheating the tyres.

I tried it on asphalt a couple of weeks ago and the rear was planted at mid to corner exit but a bit loose at corner entry, hence why I was thinking about adjusting the rear bump steer. I never driven on asphalt before so I don't know if the RFG made any difference.

I got another race on asphalt in 3 weeks and I'll do a comparison with and without the RFG and let you know how I get on.
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Old 05-30-2016, 10:08 AM   #9255
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Congrats to Christian in 13.5 running an Evo1.

Would love to know what you are running for setup. Haven't had much experience in running without an upper deck.
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